January 2013 Sales Thread
02-02-13, 04:08 PM
#31
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People and companies need fleet vehicles. For example State Farm is huge, and they have and need tons of fleet cars for business reasons. Maybe Honda should sell more fleet to help sales.
Cause if the ILX is their best selling sedan for Acura and its selling at less than 50% of its target that is a huge problem and its embarrassing. The TL used to sell 4-6k a month easy. It's a disaster.
Looking at Honda 60k of sales are 3 models, accord,civic, crv. Thank goodness for them.
Cause if the ILX is their best selling sedan for Acura and its selling at less than 50% of its target that is a huge problem and its embarrassing. The TL used to sell 4-6k a month easy. It's a disaster.
Looking at Honda 60k of sales are 3 models, accord,civic, crv. Thank goodness for them.
02-02-13, 05:08 PM
#33
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Surely if Honda sold real trucks, or big vans and other fleet type vehicles, fleet sales would be higher. When I go to rent cars I've seen it all, just at Hertz everything from Lambos to Cadillacs to Infiniits to of course Fords and Toyotas. Let alone Enterprise etc etc..there are tons of luxury cars in fleets too.
It used to bug me but now I don't care, especially when Fleet vehicles fulfill business needs and are needed. Its not like they are all posted as a sale then are sent to the Arctic.
02-02-13, 06:52 PM
#34
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I didn't say it was a negative. Their sales would be better if the other models like CR-Z, Insight, Crosstour, etc were better received. The fleet argument is old and ridiculous at this point. Honda incentives are through the roof compared to the past when they had a line of people waiting to pay whatever was offered to them. Times have changed.
Surely if Honda sold real trucks, or big vans and other fleet type vehicles, fleet sales would be higher. When I go to rent cars I've seen it all, just at Hertz everything from Lambos to Cadillacs to Infiniits to of course Fords and Toyotas. Let alone Enterprise etc etc..there are tons of luxury cars in fleets too.
It used to bug me but now I don't care, especially when Fleet vehicles fulfill business needs and are needed. Its not like they are all posted as a sale then are sent to the Arctic.
Surely if Honda sold real trucks, or big vans and other fleet type vehicles, fleet sales would be higher. When I go to rent cars I've seen it all, just at Hertz everything from Lambos to Cadillacs to Infiniits to of course Fords and Toyotas. Let alone Enterprise etc etc..there are tons of luxury cars in fleets too.
It used to bug me but now I don't care, especially when Fleet vehicles fulfill business needs and are needed. Its not like they are all posted as a sale then are sent to the Arctic.
Fleet sales are considered a negative. Chrysler publicly stated they want to decrease their reliance on fleet sales to boost their sales. Fleet sales have less profits, hurt your re-sale value to the public, and diminish a brand's value (or that car's value - the Taurus???) Why do you think fleet sales are never stated publicly when the companies release their sales numbers? You want Ford to say, hey 30% of our sales were fleets! Yay!
Honda's problem is they have nothing to offer outside of their core models. That's their problem. Inflating their sales with fleet sales and making their sales numbers look nicer won't make their primary problems go away, which is inability to make models outside of their core models resonate with the mainstream buyers.
PS - fleet sales aren't just trucks or vans. Nissan's main fleet sales come from the Versa and Altimas. The Fusion's fleet sales were huge this past month, along with the Corollas/Prius.
Last edited by doublehh03; 02-02-13 at 06:59 PM.
02-02-13, 07:00 PM
#35
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Fleet sales are considered a negative. Chrysler publicly stated they want to decrease their reliance on fleet sales to boost their sales. Fleet sales have less profits, hurt your re-sale value to the public, and diminish a brand's value (or that car's value - the Taurus???) Why do you think fleet sales are never stated publicly when the companies release their sales numbers? You want Ford to say, hey 30% of our sales were fleets! Yay!
Honda's problem is they have nothing to offer outside of their core models. That's their problem. Inflating their sales with fleet sales and making their sales numbers look nicer won't make their primary problems go away, which is inability to making models outside of their core models resonate with the mainstream buyers.
Its not even about Honda. Some companies have fleet sales as clearly fleet customers need cars. I made the case of State Farm, they need THOUSANDS of cars for employees to drive so employees don't drive their personal cars. That is a bad thing for a car brand to sell to them? That is ridiculous. The government needs vehicles, so do construction companies etc.
02-02-13, 07:15 PM
#36
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Fleet sales are a negative to YOU and to other internetz people who try to act like low fleet sales means superior. You are bashing fleet sales but what about fire sales for retail cars? I just saw on the T.V $0 everything for a new Accord. But OMG its a retail sale
Its not even about Honda. Some companies have fleet sales as clearly fleet customers need cars. I made the case of State Farm, they need THOUSANDS of cars for employees to drive so employees don't drive their personal cars. That is a bad thing for a car brand to sell to them? That is ridiculous. The government needs vehicles, so do construction companies etc.
Its not even about Honda. Some companies have fleet sales as clearly fleet customers need cars. I made the case of State Farm, they need THOUSANDS of cars for employees to drive so employees don't drive their personal cars. That is a bad thing for a car brand to sell to them? That is ridiculous. The government needs vehicles, so do construction companies etc.
There's a reason Honda's incentives was at its all time low in several years ($1,194 - the lowest among in the industry for 1/2013). Last year was a bad year for Honda publicly b/c they had to use high incentives to push the Civic. There was barely any this past month and you saw its sales dropped as compared to the market.
Now back to the point, you are aware EVERY car company wants to minimize their fleet sales right? EVERY car company.
These were the #s of fleet sales in 2010.
Chrysler was a whopping 39%. Ford 35%, GM 31%, Hyundai 16%, Nissan 15%, Toyota 9%, Honda 2%.
Now compared to today, every carmaker has markedly REDUCE their fleet sales numbers. And Chrysler has made a point this year to reduce that number even further. There's a reason for that. Fleet sales hurt your profits, and your image.
Here's a Forbes article on Ford's fleets in 2011:
Ford ended the year with 16.5% market share, one-tenth of a percentage point better than in 2010. But it achieved that only by shoveling more cars into commercial fleets and rental lots. Counting only showroom sales, Ford said its share was flat at 14%. Independent researchers, however, say Ford lost an estimated two-tenths of a point. Final registration data next month will clarify that discrepancy. (This, by the way, could hit top executives in the wallet, since their bo*nuses are tied to retail share growth.)
In fact, Ford sells more of its cars to rental agencies and other fleet customers than does any other major carmaker. In 2011 about 32% of the 2.1 million vehicles Ford sold went to fleet customers (45% of Focus sales). GM, by contrast, sold 23% to fleets. Most others were below 10%. Why does it matter? Because fleet customers buy in bulk, they tend to pay less than showroom buyers, and that means carmakers earn less profit on those sales. While fleet sales aren’t necessarily bad, most car companies prefer to limit them. Toyota and Honda, for instance, sell very few cars to fleets. Ford says almost half of its fleet sales are “good fleet” — trucks and vans sold to commercial customers
Last edited by doublehh03; 02-02-13 at 07:23 PM.
02-02-13, 07:26 PM
#37
And companies with high incentives constantly hurt themselves also. This mostly applies to the Detroit big 3 (which also has high fleet sales).
There's a reason Honda's incentives was at its all time low in several years ($1,194 - the lowest among in the industry for 1/2013). Last year was a bad year for Honda publicly b/c they had to use high incentives to push the Civic. There was barely any this past month and you saw its sales dropped as compared to the market.
Now back to the point, you are aware EVERY car company wants to minimize their fleet sales right? EVERY car company.
These were the #s of fleet sales in 2010.
Chrysler was a whopping 39%. Ford 35%, GM 31%, Hyundai 16%, Nissan 15%, Toyota 9%, Honda 2%.
Now compared to today, every carmaker has markedly REDUCE their fleet sales numbers. And Chrysler has made a point this year to reduce that number even further. There's a reason for that. Fleet sales hurt your profits, and your image.
Here's a Forbes article on Ford's fleets in 2011:
Ford ended the year with 16.5% market share, one-tenth of a percentage point better than in 2010. But it achieved that only by shoveling more cars into commercial fleets and rental lots. Counting only showroom sales, Ford said its share was flat at 14%. Independent researchers, however, say Ford lost an estimated two-tenths of a point. Final registration data next month will clarify that discrepancy. (This, by the way, could hit top executives in the wallet, since their bo*nuses are tied to retail share growth.)
In fact, Ford sells more of its cars to rental agencies and other fleet customers than does any other major carmaker. In 2011 about 32% of the 2.1 million vehicles Ford sold went to fleet customers (45% of Focus sales). GM, by contrast, sold 23% to fleets. Most others were below 10%. Why does it matter? Because fleet customers buy in bulk, they tend to pay less than showroom buyers, and that means carmakers earn less profit on those sales. While fleet sales aren’t necessarily bad, most car companies prefer to limit them. Toyota and Honda, for instance, sell very few cars to fleets. Ford says almost half of its fleet sales are “good fleet” — trucks and vans sold to commercial customers
There's a reason Honda's incentives was at its all time low in several years ($1,194 - the lowest among in the industry for 1/2013). Last year was a bad year for Honda publicly b/c they had to use high incentives to push the Civic. There was barely any this past month and you saw its sales dropped as compared to the market.
Now back to the point, you are aware EVERY car company wants to minimize their fleet sales right? EVERY car company.
These were the #s of fleet sales in 2010.
Chrysler was a whopping 39%. Ford 35%, GM 31%, Hyundai 16%, Nissan 15%, Toyota 9%, Honda 2%.
Now compared to today, every carmaker has markedly REDUCE their fleet sales numbers. And Chrysler has made a point this year to reduce that number even further. There's a reason for that. Fleet sales hurt your profits, and your image.
Here's a Forbes article on Ford's fleets in 2011:
Ford ended the year with 16.5% market share, one-tenth of a percentage point better than in 2010. But it achieved that only by shoveling more cars into commercial fleets and rental lots. Counting only showroom sales, Ford said its share was flat at 14%. Independent researchers, however, say Ford lost an estimated two-tenths of a point. Final registration data next month will clarify that discrepancy. (This, by the way, could hit top executives in the wallet, since their bo*nuses are tied to retail share growth.)
In fact, Ford sells more of its cars to rental agencies and other fleet customers than does any other major carmaker. In 2011 about 32% of the 2.1 million vehicles Ford sold went to fleet customers (45% of Focus sales). GM, by contrast, sold 23% to fleets. Most others were below 10%. Why does it matter? Because fleet customers buy in bulk, they tend to pay less than showroom buyers, and that means carmakers earn less profit on those sales. While fleet sales aren’t necessarily bad, most car companies prefer to limit them. Toyota and Honda, for instance, sell very few cars to fleets. Ford says almost half of its fleet sales are “good fleet” — trucks and vans sold to commercial customers
At the end of the day, who is right or wrong is proven by Operating Income for FY and KBB values.
02-02-13, 08:29 PM
#39
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And companies with high incentives constantly hurt themselves also. This mostly applies to the Detroit big 3 (which also has high fleet sales).
There's a reason Honda's incentives was at its all time low in several years ($1,194 - the lowest among in the industry for 1/2013). Last year was a bad year for Honda publicly b/c they had to use high incentives to push the Civic. There was barely any this past month and you saw its sales dropped as compared to the market.
Now back to the point, you are aware EVERY car company wants to minimize their fleet sales right? EVERY car company.
These were the #s of fleet sales in 2010.
Chrysler was a whopping 39%. Ford 35%, GM 31%, Hyundai 16%, Nissan 15%, Toyota 9%, Honda 2%.
Now compared to today, every carmaker has markedly REDUCE their fleet sales numbers. And Chrysler has made a point this year to reduce that number even further. There's a reason for that. Fleet sales hurt your profits, and your image.
Here's a Forbes article on Ford's fleets in 2011:
Ford ended the year with 16.5% market share, one-tenth of a percentage point better than in 2010. But it achieved that only by shoveling more cars into commercial fleets and rental lots. Counting only showroom sales, Ford said its share was flat at 14%. Independent researchers, however, say Ford lost an estimated two-tenths of a point. Final registration data next month will clarify that discrepancy. (This, by the way, could hit top executives in the wallet, since their bo*nuses are tied to retail share growth.)
In fact, Ford sells more of its cars to rental agencies and other fleet customers than does any other major carmaker. In 2011 about 32% of the 2.1 million vehicles Ford sold went to fleet customers (45% of Focus sales). GM, by contrast, sold 23% to fleets. Most others were below 10%. Why does it matter? Because fleet customers buy in bulk, they tend to pay less than showroom buyers, and that means carmakers earn less profit on those sales. While fleet sales aren’t necessarily bad, most car companies prefer to limit them. Toyota and Honda, for instance, sell very few cars to fleets. Ford says almost half of its fleet sales are “good fleet” — trucks and vans sold to commercial customers
There's a reason Honda's incentives was at its all time low in several years ($1,194 - the lowest among in the industry for 1/2013). Last year was a bad year for Honda publicly b/c they had to use high incentives to push the Civic. There was barely any this past month and you saw its sales dropped as compared to the market.
Now back to the point, you are aware EVERY car company wants to minimize their fleet sales right? EVERY car company.
These were the #s of fleet sales in 2010.
Chrysler was a whopping 39%. Ford 35%, GM 31%, Hyundai 16%, Nissan 15%, Toyota 9%, Honda 2%.
Now compared to today, every carmaker has markedly REDUCE their fleet sales numbers. And Chrysler has made a point this year to reduce that number even further. There's a reason for that. Fleet sales hurt your profits, and your image.
Here's a Forbes article on Ford's fleets in 2011:
Ford ended the year with 16.5% market share, one-tenth of a percentage point better than in 2010. But it achieved that only by shoveling more cars into commercial fleets and rental lots. Counting only showroom sales, Ford said its share was flat at 14%. Independent researchers, however, say Ford lost an estimated two-tenths of a point. Final registration data next month will clarify that discrepancy. (This, by the way, could hit top executives in the wallet, since their bo*nuses are tied to retail share growth.)
In fact, Ford sells more of its cars to rental agencies and other fleet customers than does any other major carmaker. In 2011 about 32% of the 2.1 million vehicles Ford sold went to fleet customers (45% of Focus sales). GM, by contrast, sold 23% to fleets. Most others were below 10%. Why does it matter? Because fleet customers buy in bulk, they tend to pay less than showroom buyers, and that means carmakers earn less profit on those sales. While fleet sales aren’t necessarily bad, most car companies prefer to limit them. Toyota and Honda, for instance, sell very few cars to fleets. Ford says almost half of its fleet sales are “good fleet” — trucks and vans sold to commercial customers
The "fleet" argument quite frankly has been used for too long by kids on the internet with the slightest clue of the actual market. You keep ignoring my examples. Its some B.S argument to try to imply superiority, usually by Honda fans.
If its January 1st and the government or a private company wants FLEET vehicles, well then why not. If Honda choses not to offer many vehicles to fleet, thats their strategy. If a company wants to be an option for fleet, that is their strategy. There are rental car companies all over the world, what they need vehicles to rent. Does that make a company that sells to them a bad thing? In many cases it might open the eyes of someone that likely would not have interest in a vehicle.
FYI, in Germany, some luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW sell 50% to fleet. Yes 50%. It doesn't seem to be any issue there and it sure as hell ain't an issue on the interetz here in America. Not sure why 30% or even 20% let alone 10% is an issue.
Looking at data regarding sales, perception and resale it doesn't seem to matter much if a vehicle is used more for fleets. It just some ridiculous internetz point that is now old and needs to go away.
Last edited by LexFather; 02-02-13 at 08:39 PM.
02-02-13, 10:54 PM
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Sorry its more "omg fleet sales suck" internetz hibber jibberish. Did you miss the point that Ford and GM offer vehicles for Fleet that others do not? You want a Full TOn pickup or van etc, you have to pretty much go domestic. You want a truck to haul cargo, you pretty much go domestic. You want LEO vehicles, you pretty much go domestic.
The "fleet" argument quite frankly has been used for too long by kids on the internet with the slightest clue of the actual market. You keep ignoring my examples. Its some B.S argument to try to imply superiority, usually by Honda fans.
If its January 1st and the government or a private company wants FLEET vehicles, well then why not. If Honda choses not to offer many vehicles to fleet, thats their strategy. If a company wants to be an option for fleet, that is their strategy. There are rental car companies all over the world, what they need vehicles to rent. Does that make a company that sells to them a bad thing? In many cases it might open the eyes of someone that likely would not have interest in a vehicle.
FYI, in Germany, some luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW sell 50% to fleet. Yes 50%. It doesn't seem to be any issue there and it sure as hell ain't an issue on the interetz here in America. Not sure why 30% or even 20% let alone 10% is an issue.
Looking at data regarding sales, perception and resale it doesn't seem to matter much if a vehicle is used more for fleets. It just some ridiculous internetz point that is now old and needs to go away.
The "fleet" argument quite frankly has been used for too long by kids on the internet with the slightest clue of the actual market. You keep ignoring my examples. Its some B.S argument to try to imply superiority, usually by Honda fans.
If its January 1st and the government or a private company wants FLEET vehicles, well then why not. If Honda choses not to offer many vehicles to fleet, thats their strategy. If a company wants to be an option for fleet, that is their strategy. There are rental car companies all over the world, what they need vehicles to rent. Does that make a company that sells to them a bad thing? In many cases it might open the eyes of someone that likely would not have interest in a vehicle.
FYI, in Germany, some luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW sell 50% to fleet. Yes 50%. It doesn't seem to be any issue there and it sure as hell ain't an issue on the interetz here in America. Not sure why 30% or even 20% let alone 10% is an issue.
Looking at data regarding sales, perception and resale it doesn't seem to matter much if a vehicle is used more for fleets. It just some ridiculous internetz point that is now old and needs to go away.
http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...s_plummet.html
GM vows to not ship thousands of its Cruze lineup to fleets b/c it will hurt its re-sale value.
http://www.streetdirectory.com/trave...for_sales.html
GM wants to reduce fleet sales b/c of the lack of profits
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-rental-firms/
In 2010, Chrysler vows to limit sales to rental firms b/c it suffers from some of the lowest re-sale value in the industry
http://www.usatoday.com/story/driveo...xicab/1854153/
And here is Jim Lentz, Toyota US CEO about fleet sales: "I hate to see Toyotas in taxi fleets but (it) does create an image for us."
Obviously your point has some merit b/c fleet sales DO serve a purpose. But when they are extravagantly high in some cases, they're not. It should be in moderation. Car companies shouldn't depend on fleet sales, like the big 3 sometimes do. There's a reason the big 3 is stressing to lower their fleet sales volume this year, esp. Chrysler.
I don't know how it works in Germany or in other countries, but if BMW/Mercedes start having high fleet sales in America, their brand image/perception will go down the toilet. And along with their retail sales.
02-03-13, 03:22 AM
#42
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Automakers should party like it's … 2012. Sales kicked off the new year at the same pace as they ended the last, with figures from the top seven largest automakers up a combined 15.6% versus January 2012. Ford and Toyota led the way with gains of 20% or better, but Nissan and Hyundai-Kia both saw a roughly flat month. None of the 6 automakers saw a sales decrease, however.
Ford's banner month shifted the top 10 best-sellers. The Focus compact dropped from the list, but the Fusion sedan and Escape SUV reprised their standings; both were absent in December 2012. Despite 2 recalls following its launch early last fall, the redesigned Fusion shot up 64.5%, and this came with lighter incentives than the outgoing Fusion a year ago. The redesigned Honda Accord — winner of our recent Cars.com $26,000 Midsize Family Sedan Showdown — picked up even better speed, packing on 75.2% to stay 1,525 cars ahead of the Fusion. Keep an eye out: That race could end the year in a photo finish.
J.P. Morgan analyst Ryan Brinkman pegged sales right around December's annualized rate, Automotive News reports, meaning January would tie for the 2nd best sales month since February 2008. Shoppers kept buying despite fewer deals. Total dealer and automaker discounts now combine for $5,223, according to CNW Marketing Research. That's down more than $500 versus January 2012, and combined with rising MSRPs, it's driven the average new car to $32,163 in January — up 6.6% versus a year ago.
Pickup trucks had a strong month, with GM's Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra twins up more than 30% apiece. Both trucks have 2014 redesigns, but year-over-year incentives are up as much as $2,000 on the Silverado. Truck shoppers clamored for Ram pickups (up 14.3%) and Ford's F-Series (up 21.7%), too. Panelists at December 2012’s Society of Automotive Analysts conference in Detroit predicted this, tying pickup truck sales to accelerating housing starts — which in December hit their highest annualized levels since June 2008. How much are the 2 correlated? Try about 95%, Citi analyst Itay Michaeli said.
02-03-13, 06:09 AM
#43
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You don't know what the hell you are talking about. What I'm saying is what the manufacturers are saying.
Obviously your point has some merit b/c fleet sales DO serve a purpose. But when they are extravagantly high in some cases, they're not. It should be in moderation. Car companies shouldn't depend on fleet sales, like the big 3 sometimes do. There's a reason the big 3 is stressing to lower their fleet sales volume this year, esp. Chrysler.
I don't know how it works in Germany or in other countries, but if BMW/Mercedes start having high fleet sales in America, their brand image/perception will go down the toilet. And along with their retail sales.
Obviously your point has some merit b/c fleet sales DO serve a purpose. But when they are extravagantly high in some cases, they're not. It should be in moderation. Car companies shouldn't depend on fleet sales, like the big 3 sometimes do. There's a reason the big 3 is stressing to lower their fleet sales volume this year, esp. Chrysler.
I don't know how it works in Germany or in other countries, but if BMW/Mercedes start having high fleet sales in America, their brand image/perception will go down the toilet. And along with their retail sales.
I'm not arguing with someone that doesn't even own a car. Enjoy your Sunday.
02-03-13, 06:23 AM
#44
as to Germany, it think some months fleet sales are as big as 70% :-)
Your company gets tax benefits from buying you a car so thats the reason basically.... everyone drives company cars.
Your company gets tax benefits from buying you a car so thats the reason basically.... everyone drives company cars.
02-03-13, 07:48 AM
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. Good day.