Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

So the topic of unequal copycat designs came up in another thread, but did not necessarily pertain to the OP so I thought to present it here. In the thread, ydooby stated "European cars are exempted from being accused of copycat designs". The comparison was between Porsche's 918 Spyder and a Ferrari F430. True they do look alike, but is all forgiven because they are European and have a pedigree and sophistication about them that allows for such exemption. The same cannot be said about American and Asian automakers who are typically more under appreciated vs their European counterparts. So why do European makes get a pass in whatever they do?


Well with respect to the thread title, Are European vehicles simply better or is it because of a name? Based on past history many would argue that European vehicles were better. 'Were' being the key word though. Fast forward to today and regardless if the automaker is mainstream or tier one, they have all upped build quality, design, engineering, safety, and technology so the point is moot. European automakers continue to produce strong segment leaders but then so does everyone else. So how then do they get a pass when it comes to designs, price and comparison tests? Personally, I believe its all in the name.

Let's use Luxury cars for example. I wouldn't say that Asian and American "Luxury" is lacking behind their European counterparts but rather the offering as a whole. Any manufacturer can put perforated double stitched leather and a high tech infotainment system into their cars. Rather it's how the automaker is perceived on a local and global scale. Now what I mean by this is European cars have always had an upper hand when it comes to most aspects of Automobiles whether its a history or pedigree. Parity between European, American, Japanese, and Korean makes is far from equal because of the way society classifies race/countries/origins etc.. Basically Europeans will always be deemed more prestigious and born with "pedigree". As long as people hold anything with a European name in high regard (i.e. the badge), there's not much American, Japanese, or Korean makes can do.

Here-in lies the answer. It's the product or rather product line. To the Euros credit or more specifically the German makes, which continually drive innovation and offer a vehicle in near every size and segment despite some being a poor business case. Automakers like Acura, Cadillac, Infiniti and Lincoln could learn a lot by taking a page out of the Germans playbook by actually offering models that stand toe to toe, tit for tat. But how do they do that if brand perception is key? Well as we know history and pedigree play a major role, and for those makes striving toward success, it's hard to gain a foothold in a segment dominated by the aforementioned but you have to start somewhere just like F and V have stepped up against storied AMG, M and RS lines.


There's no denying European automakers have a rich pedigree of racing and motoring. Many of which are built with high quality materials and a high feature content. Their vehicles posses strong powertrains and awesome road manners. Unfortunately their flaws are (ie reliability) are covered up by cushy leather and the excellent suspensions that are comfy yet firm. So in most comparison tests European cars get the nod over their Asian and American counterparts (Passat vs Camry vs Sonata?). I like to compare the Europeans automakers to their hierarchy governments from which they came. Chess anyone? Offering a full stable to do battle with the next kingdom. For example BMW; 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 series, X1, X3, X5, X6, Z4 (did I miss any lol) and then of course the enemy; A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8 and Q5, Q7, TT, R8 and S/RS versions as well. European automakers also add depth to their models. Just how far down the rabbit hole can they go with a model. The BMW 3 series for example; 328i, 335i, 335d (now defunct) and M3 as top dog. Let's not forget other diesel and petrol models offered anywhere but stateside. Anyway point being European cars add sophistication and push their models from basic transportation to performance extremes.


Suffice to say American cars have come a long way (mostly in recent years) from their crude no frills beginnings. Of course that's not to eschew one of the greatest class of cars only Americans could bore; American muscle. Despite the sometimes questionable handling dynamics, the raw power surely puts a smile on ones face (thank you 60s-70s muscle, Ford GT, Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper!!!). As far as reliability is concerned, despite the same poor reliability record for American and European cars alike, European models get the nod because of their pedigree and plushness. As we've seen though, the difference between all automakers is getting smaller. Sales will in most likelihood be based on aesthetics and badge rather than numbers and merit. Funny enough a slew of new vehicles such as Cruze, Focus and Dart have European roots, but this is also because of a shift towards global platforms. New models like the ATS are ahead of the curve, much of American (and Asian) line-ups still offer limited power trains and drivelines vs their competition (mainly Luxury ones), but Cadillac is still in need of a few more models to fill in the holes in their line-up especially a real RWD flagship sedan. The Lincoln revival is taking another route, however as they are in search of a new design language their product offerings have not come to fruition yet though a RWD coupe is in the works and the MKC small CUV looks to be promising.


As for Asian manufacturers, Lexus is on a roll but the worst part about it is the waiting. Everything but the IS and GX have been redesigned or refreshed, and F-Sport is beginning to take hold. The next big steps for Lexus will be adding the RC coupe and NX small CUV. As for Infiniti and Acura (adding X to their models), it's not the naming system that's the problem, its the product offering. More coupes, verts, hatches, wagons, CUVs need to help fill the holes in the line-up compared to the competition. The M is nice, but disappointing when compared to the competition. If infiniti wants to be be taken seriously they need to find a way to make a Q flagship more desirable than a 7, S, or A8 which is a tall order. Lastly, Acura... *sigh*. Their 4 sedans are simply the same thing just in different packages, prices, and physically all four are near the same length. You need product! You need passion! You need a halo! Thank you Lexus for giving us the LFA and changing the way society views Asian automakers. But alas Lexus cannot do it alone. Lexus needs Acura and Infiniti to step it up. The LFA is indeed a halo car meant to carry and innovate the Asian automakers. Imagine if the Acura NSX and Infniti emerg-e could drive alongside the LFA ready to do go up against Europe's and America's finest. That said BMW 3, 5, 7, Audi A4, A6, A8, MBZ C, E, S, Lexus IS, GS, LS. Acura and Infiniti???? Com'on build a real competitor and not some class straddlers. Let's not forget Hyundai/Kia either. There has been much buzz around them since 2009 when the Genesis sedan, Genesis coupe and polarizing styling of the Sonata began a resurgent campaign to gain market share. Hyundai/Kia seem to have the most to prove against seemingly more established automakers but they are doing great with product offering and trying to build a performance R-Spec line.


Another reason European or more specifically the Germans - yes Jaguar we see what your doing keep it up - seem to be the benchmark is because Audi, BMW and MBZ are so similar that their competition drives similarities. Like Mustang and Camaro. V6 vs V6, GT vs SS, Boss 302 vs 1LE, GT500 vs ZL1, there is an answer to every problem for the Germans. 7 Series, S-Class, A8 all offer a turbo V8 (4.4L, 4.6L, 4.0L respectively) with over 400bhp. Lexus is the only Asian automaker holding the banner against European and American products, with little support from Acura and Infiniti. Sure they have some decent cars but where is the full line-up to battle toe to toe.

Certainly society, consumers, government, and business decisions measure a vehicles success other than history, pedigree and a badge. I think to really compete with the Europeans makes, both Asian and American manufacturers need to offer that hierarchy system to a T. They need to build a strong line-up that fills class segments including those niche models while offering that something extra that the competition doesn't. Sometimes keeping up with the Jone's is a must. Finding an equilibrium for performance, reliability, safety, technology, innovation, intuitiveness, design, handling and fuel economy is key to success in the automotive field.

In conclusion this all culminates into one simple question. Are automakers judged fairly be it the consumer/society?

Discuss!

Also, I can foresee this being a heated thread, so Please be respectful of other's comment's. Let's not get this thread locked. kthx!

rominl

iTrader: (4)

beautifully written imho, way to go Hoovey!

i think perception, heritage, etc... has something to do with it. when you have more supporters and brand loyalists, you tend to hear more positive things. it's nothing different if you think of clublexus. long time members tend to carry more "credit" and new members raise more "doubts". just the same here, some manufacturers have longer history on cars, performance, status symbols, etc...

is it fair? i don't think so (just like i don't think long time members means more here), it should be product that people and outcome that people look at.

is it right or wrong? i don't think there is absolute numbers. and it's something just carries on forever.

plenty of criticisms on the audi grill back in early 2000s. most people even bmw owners went wtf on bmw styling in early 2000s. mb long time loyal s class owners abandoned the brand in early 2000s. acura received nothing but criticisms on their design directions for the past decade. the list goes on and on.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Thanks Henry!

Yes it seems there are two camps. Numbers and merits (ie real world tests) and inherent traits based on badge. It's true we see both, and the most egregious use is by consumers vs enthusiasts. A good example is Honda/Toyota, just because they are known for reliability people get all up in arms when they fail, and for that matter BMW does not make consistent lemons. People put these badges on a pedestal and judge them based on history. I've known several friends who have had many transmission problems with their TL 3.2 and their Odyssey. Or even I come from a Ford family (Fix or Repair Daily) and have NEVER had any major issues with our Taurus, Mustang, Explorer, F-150, Escape.

I don't think it's fair, but I don't think it's changing either. Regardless if the product is a car or a coffee maker, if it's manufactured in Europe it carries a certain stigma over other similar products produced by other countries.

Also part of the problem for the Acura in this past decade has been both product offering and design. Overlapping sedans, defunct coupes. When one model came out, another would show up a few months later with a different design language. There was no consistency.

LexFather

Great write-up Hoovey...the TLR crowd probably needs more pics or something more simple

We agree on where the Asian brands lie, I and others have stated the same thing. The Euro domination is just that and the lead is getting wider as they have 3 powerhouses compared to 1 in Asia and none from the States.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Right, Cadillacs and Lincolns have been downgraded so much from the 50s and 60s that it will take some time for them to recapture what it means to own a luxury car, especially when the big German 3 have thrown sport into the mix. We'll see if anything can be rekindled in the next few years.

Lexus/Toyota is leading the way. Specifically for Lexus and L-Finesse models they lost some quality but have seemed to get back on track with 2011 models to present. That and establishing a Halo supercar, F marque, and F-Sport line. The Toyobaru has done well bringing back some of the passion that was lost with the MR2, Celica, and Supra.

As for the other makes, with Nissan recently admitting to almost axing Infiniti and now the name shuffling, Infiniti is almost starting from scratch. They have the hardware to be successful they need to implement the product better. I think the Q50 (gah it pains me to say it) is a good start. I've been calling it the wild card of the bunch as the ATS has essentially dethroned the 3-Series, C-Class is a contender, and the IS will surely take after the GS so the segment is packed with great choices. A true flagship, and simplified SUV/CUV line-up would be nice. I seriously wonder if they lose money on the EX. Nissan on the other hand has revamped their sedans and CUV/SUV's though their trucks are lackluster.

Honda has recently taken note that they need to advance. Through technology and innovation. Ito even went as far to say in a recent interview that direct injection is a must and Honda will mull possible turbo applications. The recent emergency refresh of the Civic and the successful new Accord are signs that Honda is beginning to listening the consumer. Acura has yet to deliver the NSX after which if it does come to fruition there may be a sign of life at Acura. Hopefully the NSX sparks them to deliver smart performance and a passion for innovation and technology. Implementing P-AWS successfully and developing performance hybrid powertrains like the upcoming RLX Hybrid. Need another RSX as well.

So we have the big three makes Toyota, Nissan and Honda, then there's Mazda. They seem to be doing their own thing quietly in the background. They've had a slew of hits since the Mazda Takeri and Shinari concepts including the cute ute CX-5 and the sleek new Mazda6 as well as the new iLoop system and SkyActiv fuel tech. If they can deliver with the next Mazda3, develop Mazdaspeed more as a performance line, build a Mazda9, and reincarnate a successor to the RX-7/RX-8 I think they could begin to surpass the aforementioned.

Mitsubishi is another story. Suzuki leaving the US seems to be a good business sense. Mitsubishi? Well I just want to know what happened. At one time they offered fun alternatives to the above with a AWD turbo Eclipse, 3000GT and Starion. Now the Evo is ailing and the Eclipse has lost all sense of itself. The Outlander is long in the tooth and the Galant is ancient. If they don't do something quick they may not sell on these shores like they don't in Europe anymore.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

one thing though, i have to believe that the gap is narrowing pretty quickly between japanese and europeans. of course lexus (toyota) is leading the japanese group.

what i mean is when you look at performance / dynamics / fun, japanese has picked up a lot. lexus, infiniti, i don't have to go any further (can care less how bmw loyalties disagree). on the other hand, european has caught up a lot on electronics and reliability. bmw and mb nav and audio systems have jumped quite a lot since mid 2000s, same with design quality, details, and reliability.

i think we both agree that brand loyalty will be there forever and that's because of histories and badges, i don't see any changes happening (for a second forget about other regions, just look at bmw vs mb and you still see the same). from enthusiasts point of view, it's just so much fun to look at all the cars and point out all the goods and bads. as customers i think this is fantastic because choices are now all very attractive with less compromises.

Outrage

To heritage: Here is what Cadillac was producing in 1930:



Here is what BMW was producing:

BertL

Hoovey -- as always, another super and thought-provoking post.

I'll throw in a few of my own thoughts. This post started with being more oriented towards design and even performance, but for me, there are probably 5 areas that I consider when purchasing a new ride -- be that my utility everyday vehicle, or more of a toy, like my coupe or convertible. Those elements are: Reliability, Service, Technology, Luxury and Performance. The latter 3 of which for the most part capture "design" between them. My priorities of what I'm looking for change between my SUV and "toy", but a brand must deliver on all of them. Having @#$%@ service or my perceiving the brand having a poor readability track record, can nix it from consideration.

For me, even with the Toyota/Lexus recall situations, I still perceive the brands as highly reliable. When there are problems, post-sales service has kicked-in and helped smooth it over. My mom is still driving my 1997 RAV4 as her primary vehicle. It's been highly reliable, she feels safe in it, and she is well taken care of when it comes time to have it serviced. She still gets comments about "her new car" from unknowing people in parking lots. My experience with Lexus since 1995 has also been super. Service is tops, both pre and post sales, and is a major reason for my brand loyalty, combined with my confidence in the reliability of the product they produce.

Now, here's the deal though, and very much to your and other's posts. Lexus has not been the fastest introducing new technologies and styling over the years. It's as if the Japanese brands let the Germans work out the "new things", and then the Japanese refine it even further before introducing it on their models. My experience with BMW would absolutely support that -- the BMW was a great performer, had the latest technology, but honestly was just not as well integrated as I've come to expect from Lexus. ...little things, like if I left my iPod plugged into the BMW adapter, it would drain the car battery; garage door opener only working when in accessory or ON mode; and not being able to see some indicator lights because of odd placement (good for their "build to order" model, but not ergonomically for the driver IMO). When I asked dealer service about the iPod situation, as I viewed that as a failure in their implementation, their response was "that's the way BMW designed it -- you should unplug the iPod or put on a battery tender". ...I had a similar thing when my convertible roof leaked -- it was for the most part repaired but would still drip on my leg and the passenger's during heavy downpours. BMW's response was "a convertible isn't water tight". I have not, and doubt I would have those sorts of challenges with Lexus -- even if there was a failure, Lexus service would likely try to resolve it as best they could. I'm of German heritage myself, so know what being "hard headed" can be like , but I don't expect an auto manufacturer or their dealers to take the approach of "this is the way it is" just because they think they can. A better service experience goes a long way to smooth things over and help create loyalty with some owners like me.

I jumped ship to try my first German brand after my beloved SC430 became long in the tooth and Lexus clearly was letting that model die on the vine with little but color changes the last few MYs, and the IS-C has not yet been introduced. My BMW 335i was a great performer, not a bad looker, and the most fun to drive I've ever owned, but in less than 2 years, I sold it when I just didn't trust the vehicle's reliability for road trips any more -- which was it's primary purpose.

With the spindle grille, Lexus is starting to be more agressive with their styling... it almost turned me off upgrading my RX400h to a 2013 RX450h, but it's grown on me and I truly love my daily driver RX as I have the previous 2 since 1999. Pre and post service, too, can't be beat with Lexus. In the past couple of months, I've had the bug again to get another convertible. I waited until the new IS was announced, but nothing was said about a new IS-C, and honestly, I couldn't live with the overly huge spindle grille the new IS line has if the convertible is based off of it. I know a lot of folks love it, but it reminds me too much of a baleen whale every time I see that monstrous black mouth coming at me. I've read the rumors of a new SC, but who knows if and when that may come around. ...so, while I thought I had sworn off the German brands because of my prior experience, I have a MBZ SLK on-order. It's got the more classic roadster look and feel I was looking for (as did the SC in it's day), had several options to select from as it relates to performance, all the technology options I could want, and sales has been a good experience thus far. I'll have to see on overall reliability and post-sales service.

...all that to say, I agree with you all -- Toyota/Lexus can't take on the German brands by themselves. If Lexus can keep up the quality and reliability of the product, while pulling in latest technologies just a little faster, and not go too extreme on the agressive styling so they can relate to both the younger crowd as well as those that want a little more classic look and feel, the German brands will have to keep looking in their rearview mirrors.

mmarshall

Great narrative, Hoovey. I agree with most of it.

With few exceptions, though, the best American-nameplate cars, today (especially sedans) seem to be done on Euro or Asian platforms. The Buick Regal and Verano come from German Opel platforms, the Dodge Dart from Fiat and Alfa sources, the Ford Focus/Fiesta from Ford's European operations, and the Chevy Cruze from Korean Daewoo and German Opel sources. Sometimes these vehicles have American-sourced engines/transmissions, sometimes not.

What is interesting, though, is that we see few, if any, rebadged Japanese-vehicles with American-nameplates anymore.....vehicles like the old Chevy Nova and Chevy/Geo Prizm (Toyota Corolla), Chevy/Geo Metro (Suzuki Sprint) , Chevy/Geo Tracker (Suzuki Sidekick), Ford Festiva (Mazda 121), Chevrolet LUV pickup (Isuzu P'UP), Dodge Raider (Mitsubushi Montero/Pajero), Dodge/Plymouth Colt (Mitsubishi Mirage), Chrysler Conquest (Mitsubishi Starion), and, of course, others. Those days seem to be gone.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Yes, the gap has narrowed considerably. You look at the 80's/90's and Japan had what the MR2, Supra, Celica, 3000GT, Starion, Eclipse, 240SX, 300ZX etc.. fast forward and most everyone of them is now starting to get their mojo back. Europeans especially Jaguar need to work on those electronics most definitely. At the same time, it seems where Asian makes are injecting sport, Euro makes like BMW and the 3 and 5 Series have lost much of their tautness and are arguably no longer the Ultimate Driving Machine.

Agreed, with more competition and autoamkers stepping up, its a win for the consumer!

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

NIce comparison! Begs the question, what happened?? Cadillacs and Lincolns were grand and stately. Cost cutting and platform sharing really diluted what they started out to be. You were once revered if you pulled up in one of these automobiles. The game has certainly changed, and it would be nice to see Cadillac and Lincoln return to former glory

mmarshall

Based on history, I think what happened was that, in 1930, both America and Germany had plunged into (or were well on the way to plunging into) recession and depression. Cadillac could still do large, stately, coach-built vehicles like that because, here in America, despite the suffering and poverty of the Depression-ridden masses, there was still a significant market among those in the upper-classes who had escaped the effects of the Wall-Street crash.....and still had money to burn. Not only Cadillac, but a number of other American manufacturers were also doing large expensive cars like that (Packard, Lincoln, Pierce-Arrow, Dusenberg, etc.....)

By contrast, in Germany, the economy was even worse...a complete basket case (one of the things, of course, that led to the rise of Hitler and the *****). A few ultra-luxury Mercedes and Maybach models were being done, but mostly for Government officials. That small BMW represented cars that were almost universal (or smaller) in Germany. The famous air-cooled VW Beetle, of course (one of Hitler's ideas, based on his admiraton for Henry Ford and the Model T), was to debut in a few years.....but, because of the War, did not really get going until the late 1940s.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Thanks!

Great point with the service. Sure people buy their cars for transportation and merit, but they do need maintenance and are not impervious to wear and tear. Giving loaners, shuttles, food/beverage, relaxing environments, car washes, and even spas is a great way for automakers to pamper their guests after forking over $50 grand of your hard earned money.

Another good point, Lexus and customer service go together like peanut butter and jelly. Sure its not perfect, but the service is above that of German competitors, and with that brand loyalty ensues. Take care of the guest and the guest will take care of you.

It's funny, with Lexus they debuted the first 8-Speed Auto, yet they are finally getting around to implementing it further into their vehicles. Audi has google maps - Lexus has poor resolution maps (IMO). Suffice to say Lexus may not have the "latest and greatest", but one thing they do well is integrate the technology as you mentioned above. Everything about Lexus interiors (some exceptions) is that the layout is ergonomically designed for the driver and everything is intuitive.

Any HPFP issues?

Designs are always a hard pill to swallow as its very subjective. Me personally, I am a big fan of the spindles, but really only the full ones like on the new IS rather than the 1/3 spindle on the GS.

SLK is a great choice and a looker. I don't hear too much about them so I'm not too sure of their reliability but I believe some still use NA engines so that should help.

I wish Lexus would get with Acura and Infiniti and get them to step up to the plate. Couldn't agree more with Lexus implementing tech a bit faster. To their credit though, the slow process has helped refine the products since 2011 and make the quality better than most L-Finesse models through 2006-2011.

The American makes need to offer product period. Like I mentioned in my first post, they need product and for that matter match the Germans tit for tat

BertL

Oh, yes. Coming from Lexus, I had no experience or understanding what limp mode was, but I sure do now.

LexFather

Well Hoovey I don't see Lexus getting much help and the gap will widen. The others and even Lexus move to slow, look how Benz has a CLA now. I expect more German domination and with Audi's emergence here it will only get worse. To complicate matters more, Porsche continues to expand and a baby Panamera and baby Cayenne are coming. Their new cars are so luxurious its amazing that this is a sports car company. Maserati is also going to offer move vehicles. Lexus is on its own here and hopefully can continue to produce more exciting cars and products.

Shame more people are not reading this thread.