LexFather

Hoovey to me the battle lines were drawn in the 2000s. We clearly saw the emergence of the Japanese luxury brands in the 1990s, Lexus was the only one to somewhat keep pace/lead with the Germans the following decade. Look at how many brands were sold or bought or are no longer here, Jaguar, Saab, etc. I think that decade is going to determine for sometime how people view luxury brands until a possible new competitor comes from an emerging market. If Audi didn't get it together that decade they would not be enjoying their current success. My dark horse is Cadillac, as they have the heritage and basically minimal competition from the USA (Lincoln is struggling). If they do build a true Flagship and some sportier coupes and continue to improve all around, I think they might have a good shot but this will require pretty much home run after home run.

Another factor is Porsche. This is a brand that had 2 vehicles in the 1990s and nothing was luxurious about them. Today they offer a very luxurious lineup, their heritage and image is nearly unmatched and they are moving down and upmarket. This is another Euro brand, the balance of power is so shifted toward that region its not even funny.

In regards to diluting, I think in all honesty its really just a talking point for people on the internet and people that wouldn't buy the car anyway. From the 1 series, A3, CT and new CLA etc, it hasn't hurt any of the brands, quite frankly it seems to help them. It allowed people into the brands or gave people a choice to own a smaller luxury vehicle who wanted one. This was something I didn't understand when I was younger but I do now. I think once you have a good balance of mid and high end vehicles, you can sell in that 30k bracket. If you only sell most 30-40k cars (like Acura, Buick) then yeah, it looks downmarket since they don't offer much anything over that.

in regards to brands being global and mixing, clearly this is true. Plants are all over, talent and employees now have super diverse backgrounds and auto companies today are very "global". However make no mistake that the top brands from Germany will never get confused for an American company in Germany. I think that is important for the brand to continue to relay to the customer that while this product might be made in Antartica, its a German car. Contrarily I think in Infiniit's case its kind of confusing internally. Nissan's majority holder is Renault. The new Headquarters is in Hong Kong. The new brand CEO is from Audi. New platforms and engines will be sourced from Mercedes.

I'm in downtown Miami now. It is absolutely stunning to see all the BMW, Benz, Audi's driving around. Stunning.

speedflex

I really don't think all that matters to the public at large. Infiniti's problem is, and has always been, building and maintaining a consistent and strong brand image. They have yet to be aspirational. Once that has been successfully resolved it will be that image and message which makes the product desirable, not its corporate structure.

And btw, I read some of those early reports of platform sharing (which supposedly were to begin with the Q50) but so far there has been no platform sharing from MB. There will be Mercedes-sourced small displacement and Diesels for Infinitis sold in Europe and other parts of the world.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Some great thoughts Mike. Agreed on the emergence of luxury brands in the 90's. And certainly 2000 was the precursor to what I believe was uniformity of vehicles specific to each automaker (luxury ones, mainstream seemed to start a decade after ie Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Hyundai, VW etc.). Audi adopted the large grill and LEDs we've become accustomed to seeing. BMW's got larger kidney's, and Lexus introduced L-Finesse. Interesting about a new competitor, although not yet, I actually believe Tesla will be a player (a friend of mine just bought a Tesla S - so stay tuned for my review on that). Maserati may also be trying to market downstream with a SUV and a 5-Series competitor that that's all rumormill as of now. I believe Cadillac has struck gold with the ATS, but they need to continue to put pressure on the market. The upcoming CTS has to benchmark the 5/GS. They need to add more coupes, verts, and expand the V-Series. The XTS is not and will not be a suitable replacement for a true luxury RWD flagship. Lincoln as I've mentioned early is still struggling much like Acura, but if the MKC is true, it will be a very appealing ute in the market (and would actually have my interest) and could be a sign of a turn around. We'll just have to wait and see on that though.

What was that, that just flew by?! Oh that's just Porsche and their growing arsenal. I don't think anyone could have predicted what the Cayman, Cayenne and Panamera could do for Porsche. Did it dilute the brands sporty character? Well maybe some, but the Boxster and 911 are still better than ever and offer a pure sports car like past, but now they let you eat your cake too. Load them up with luxury! I can only imagine what the Cajun (or whatever the baby Cayenne will be called), and a smaller 4 door sedan will do for Porsche in terms of sales .

Diluting in the sense of what it means to be luxury sure, but from a business sense, the more product there is to cover consumer need, the more likelihood you'll buy from them. After all these companies want you as a life long customer. From a young stud out of college in his 3-series, to starting a family and getting a 5-series, to a midlife crisis Z4, then retired and need some luxury land yacht 7-Series. Of course that's just the core, and that's where those niche models ie X1, X6, 3GT etc.. plus lower entry level points ala 320i come into play. Also granted you can start at the 30K bracket but those options add up QUICK.

As consumers we should hope automakers simply produce the best and have high standards. Personally yeah I think it'd be cooler that my car was built in Germany instead of Mexico but at long as they have the same processes, machinery etc.. it shouldn't matter much. As Marshall made a thread earlier, production and design are becoming much more global and "one". Designed, engineered, manufactured, sold - all in four different countries lol. But yes, brand perception is key and those with certain badges will always get a pass over others despite merits etc.

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Where I live, I swear the ratio is 1:2 luxury make vs mainstream. BMW, Audi, MBZ, Lexus, Jag are huge. We also have a good amount of supercars R8's, some GT-Rs, Carerra GT, Gallardo, 458, Larry Ellison has a white LFA. Of course we don't see these till around Spring/Summer

Trexus

I agree to the both of you. Entry level models like the CT, IS, ES and NX/RX will attract and bring in new/young buyers to the brand and they can upgrade(from IS 250 to IS 350 or IS F) or move up in the model line-up(from IS/ES to GS to LS) in the future. Lexus is diverse and offers many models(not as many as BMW) whereas Infiniti and Acura need to get on board.

Many people here (CL) wouldn't even consider a CT, IS, ES, NX or RX but these models are needed and are here to stay...and I would consider any one of these models...

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

If they ever want any parity absolutely they need to get on board. Same goes for Lincoln. Cadillac and Jaguar are doing a good job, and some nice things in their pipe lines respectively.

Yes these models are going to become core models (some already). CT will have a new generation soon and may even spawn a sedan variant. NX fills a space where the RX started and allows the RX to rightfully grow and tackle the ML. Lexus is expanding with staple models and tend to do more with less. Unlike say the big German 3 who are pumping out variants and niche models like crazy. Lexus is placing their pieces with great strategy.

Trexus

Yes, Lexus should bring in more CT variants such as:

CT 200t hatchback/Sedan - F Sport
CT 200h hatchback/Sedan - F Sport
CT 300h hatchback/Sedan - F Sport

Audi discontinued the A3 hatchback and only has the A3/S3 sedan currently in the U.S.

Very soon the NX coming to the scene with:

NX 200t - F Sport
NX 300h - F Sport

Lexus will have 4 SUV/CUV's, BMW has 5 SUV/CUV's, Mercedes has 5 SUV/CUV's as well and Audi has 3 SUV/CUV's.

It'll be very interesting to see the NX, X3/X1, Q3, GLA and MKC go head to head.

Also the RC 350 and RC F going head to head with the 4 Series and M4, C 350 coupe and C63 AMG coupe and A5 and RS5...

spwolf

NX and RC this year, new RX and GS-F next year.... TX and new SC after that? Seems good to me :-).

I also think that CTh will get proper sedan for European and Asian markets.

As to the RX, there was some rumor on Taiwanese website on new RX, a bit bigger, with 2.0t and 2GR-FSE... not sure how much I believe that all together (FSE part). But I dont think RX will more up a lot pricing wise, $1k-$2k at max for base. NX will simply slot under it and top end RX's might go up to $60k in the US. RX450h should have same amount of hp but 20% better mpg than today, which also felt too crazy.

I do expect big upgrade for better in styling and interior as well. In the lot of the markets, RX is actually more expensive than GS.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Sounds good to me too!

Looking forward to the CT expanding.

Well I hope you're wrong about just increasing $1-2K, but I do feel if it can reach that $60K mark it may be be enough for now. Also I've heard the 2.0T rumor too but not sure about the US market. Forsure elsewhere.