OFFICIAL: BMW and Toyota to develop new sports car together
01-29-13, 06:17 AM
#31
i can't put my finger on it, but I have mixed feelings about this.What does Lexus have to gain in all this? The first thing that did come to mind is if we'll see inline 6's again? I'm sure there is a whole LOT of information that Lexus does not want to share with BMW regarding hybrid and lightweight technology.
01-29-13, 06:21 AM
#32
Well BMW has a LOT of research into DI and modern turbo motors, don't forget that. The N54 is incredibly responsive compared to the likes of the 2JZ. It makes the same peak power but with a wider powerband; all without the use of finicky sequential turbos. It also gets 30mpg on the highway. If Toyota is going to get back into the turbo motor game (and they need to, it's really the best option for efficiency and mileage with all the new standards rolling in -- look at how many other brands are making the switch), then BMW is the best company to learn that from. Ford being a distant second IMO.
BMW can learn a lot from Toyota's packaging and QA, it would make their cars more reliable and easier to repair. I think BMW's main issue I think is their parts suppliers (the HPFP issue is a good example) aren't being held up to good QA/QC standards and reliability suffers for it.
I'm quite hopeful about this JV
I'd be ecstatic to see M4/Supra twins
BMW can learn a lot from Toyota's packaging and QA, it would make their cars more reliable and easier to repair. I think BMW's main issue I think is their parts suppliers (the HPFP issue is a good example) aren't being held up to good QA/QC standards and reliability suffers for it.
I'm quite hopeful about this JV
I'd be ecstatic to see M4/Supra twins
Last edited by Bean; 01-29-13 at 06:25 AM.
01-29-13, 06:39 AM
#33
Well BMW has a LOT of research into DI and modern turbo motors, don't forget that. The N54 is incredibly responsive compared to the likes of the 2JZ. It makes the same peak power but with a wider powerband; all without the use of finicky sequential turbos. It also gets 30mpg on the highway. If Toyota is going to get back into the turbo motor game (and they need to, it's really the best option for efficiency and mileage with all the new standards rolling in -- look at how many other brands are making the switch), then BMW is the best company to learn that from. Ford being a distant second IMO.
BMW can learn a lot from Toyota's packaging and QA, it would make their cars more reliable and easier to repair. I think BMW's main issue I think is their parts suppliers (the HPFP issue is a good example) aren't being held up to good QA/QC standards and reliability suffers for it.
I'm quite hopeful about this JV I'd be ecstatic to see M4/Supra twins
BMW can learn a lot from Toyota's packaging and QA, it would make their cars more reliable and easier to repair. I think BMW's main issue I think is their parts suppliers (the HPFP issue is a good example) aren't being held up to good QA/QC standards and reliability suffers for it.
I'm quite hopeful about this JV
I'd be ecstatic to see M4/Supra twins 
thanks for the insight... Looks like a win win for both esp if Lexus can come up on BMW's turbo and DI R&D and more reliable beamers.
01-29-13, 07:13 AM
#34
01-29-13, 07:25 AM
#35
Toyota's long history with turbos kind of died out in the late 90s. Many things have changed, most notably DI turbo motors. The engine dynamics and design involved with that combination is very different from what the old 1JZ/2JZs were.
What Japanese suppliers are you referring to? I'm not aware of any Japanese-based modern DI turbo motors. And the Mazda 3 doesn't count as it's a Ford pretty much. The only turbo Japanese engines that I'm aware of are the laggy pocket-rocket variety like the WRX/STi and Evo (none of which are DI) and the GTR (while still not DI, it's running a huge engine and in a segment outside the scope of this discussion imo). If you'd take a look at how advanced the BMW control systems are for the N54 (and this came out in 2007), you'd see what I'm talking about. I think like 75-80% of the 'wiring' is handled by fiber-optic cables. They've got a sensing scheme that can detect pre-detonation and knocking BEFORE it occurs on a cylinder-by-cylinder basis along with the facilities to retard ignition timing on that cylinder; all to prevent knock/pre-det. It's pretty spectacular actually and really only VW/Audi has much comparable to it at this point.
They're literally a gold-mine when it comes to tuning/controlling DI turbo motors for high efficiency, mileage, and power.
01-29-13, 09:57 AM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
There isn't any, they're pretty ecstatic for what Toyota can bring to the table, packaging and QA wise. Not sure about the strawman version of a BMW owner that you believe exists, but most of them respect Toyota quite a bit.
While you're on the mark about the numb steering feel on the F30 3 series, I think you're missing that BMW is bringing out the 4 series as a sporty coupe. It will probably have much better steering feel than the F30 did; and you can bet the M3/M4 twins will be just fine. My E92 does pretty well as an 'older' model
You act as if the steering is terrible. It's still better than EVERY SINGLE MODEL that Toyota and Lexus has aside from the IS350/GS350 F-sport, both of which ride VERY rough for a Lexus and do well in tests because the BMW has no LSD. Is BMW the standard-bearer for steering feel across their entire model line? Not really, but they were just a generation ago; and their M cars still are.
BMW has plenty to teach regarding chassis tuning, and a LOT to teach about engines. Toyota has fallen behind in the engine dept. The new M3/M4 engine is going to be amazing, and I really do hope it ends up in the next Supra (because I might buy one).
Yes, because the ISF is totally a competitor to the M3 and whose engine isn't totally outclassed by a Ford. *gigglesnort* The GT-86 was done right, but severely underpowered and if you'll remember correctly, much of the chassis tuning was done by Subaru, along with the engine. I'd also hesitate to say the GS F-sport meets the 'chassis dynamic' because it gets by on harsh suspension. The cool thing about BMWs suspension tuning (aside from current numb steering issues on non M-models) is that they handled great but still rode very well -- Toyota/Lexus still doesn't have this.
While you're on the mark about the numb steering feel on the F30 3 series, I think you're missing that BMW is bringing out the 4 series as a sporty coupe. It will probably have much better steering feel than the F30 did; and you can bet the M3/M4 twins will be just fine. My E92 does pretty well as an 'older' model
You act as if the steering is terrible. It's still better than EVERY SINGLE MODEL that Toyota and Lexus has aside from the IS350/GS350 F-sport, both of which ride VERY rough for a Lexus and do well in tests because the BMW has no LSD. Is BMW the standard-bearer for steering feel across their entire model line? Not really, but they were just a generation ago; and their M cars still are.
BMW has plenty to teach regarding chassis tuning, and a LOT to teach about engines. Toyota has fallen behind in the engine dept. The new M3/M4 engine is going to be amazing, and I really do hope it ends up in the next Supra (because I might buy one).
Yes, because the ISF is totally a competitor to the M3 and whose engine isn't totally outclassed by a Ford. *gigglesnort* The GT-86 was done right, but severely underpowered and if you'll remember correctly, much of the chassis tuning was done by Subaru, along with the engine. I'd also hesitate to say the GS F-sport meets the 'chassis dynamic' because it gets by on harsh suspension. The cool thing about BMWs suspension tuning (aside from current numb steering issues on non M-models) is that they handled great but still rode very well -- Toyota/Lexus still doesn't have this.
The Supra had a 3.0 Turbo with 320hp 20 years ago.
Not sure why this has to be a pissing match, we have no idea what their plans are and hell the relationship may dissolve. What we are hoping for are cars and tech coming from 2 of the best car brands around.
01-29-13, 10:51 AM
#37
Its not harsh, we have one. The 5 got bloated and soft, like an old Lexus. The GS F-sport drives like an older BMW. We are in bizzaro world now.
The Supra had a 3.0 Turbo with 320hp 20 years ago.
Not sure why this has to be a pissing match, we have no idea what their plans are and hell the relationship may dissolve. What we are hoping for are cars and tech coming from 2 of the best car brands around.
The Supra had a 3.0 Turbo with 320hp 20 years ago.
Not sure why this has to be a pissing match, we have no idea what their plans are and hell the relationship may dissolve. What we are hoping for are cars and tech coming from 2 of the best car brands around.
I can't even imagine what the aftermarket would do; definitely a C7 fighter.
Last edited by Bean; 01-29-13 at 10:56 AM.
01-29-13, 12:49 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
Yes, because the ISF is totally a competitor to the M3 and whose engine isn't totally outclassed by a Ford. *gigglesnort* The GT-86 was done right, but severely underpowered and if you'll remember correctly, much of the chassis tuning was done by Subaru, along with the engine. I'd also hesitate to say the GS F-sport meets the 'chassis dynamic' because it gets by on harsh suspension. The cool thing about BMWs suspension tuning (aside from current numb steering issues on non M-models) is that they handled great but still rode very well -- Toyota/Lexus still doesn't have this.
So many things wrong with this part of your post there's no reason to even argue. Lexus is known for it's supple ride, even the new F-Sport models. GT-86 chassis was not tuned by Subaru, that's another myth. The IS-F engine is how many years old? What's funny is the IS-F originally wasn't even an accepted project and was basically a 'hot-rod' pushed through by the minority in Lexus. How you're going to compare a Mustang to it is beyond me, I don't get the comparison to an old engine in the IS-F to a completely new one that barely performs as well. None of that is even relevant to BMW and Toyota cooperation this thread is about anyway!
01-29-13, 12:55 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
That's all true. But the Supra's power output was very weird; if you've ever driven a stock one (I know they're very rare these days), you know what I'm talking about. The sequential turbo control system was also hard to fix when it malfunctioned. It also barely got over 20mpg and the car would have cost $70k in today's dollars. Imagine the 3.2L I6 DI motor with 425hp and no lag with a 7500rpm redline and hitting near 30mpg. It'd be put in the top 10 engines list overnight. I can't even imagine what the aftermarket would do; definitely a C7 fighter.
I can't even imagine what the aftermarket would do; definitely a C7 fighter. I would love if our GS F-sport could also be taken to a shop and have its ECU tweaked for 50 more hp. Sadly that is impossible. Totally agree on stock Supra turbo lag
01-29-13, 01:05 PM
#40
What? So many things wrong with this part of your post there's no reason to even argue. Lexus is known for it's supple ride, even the new F-Sport models. GT-86 chassis was not tuned by Subaru, that's another myth. The IS-F engine is how many years old? What's funny is the IS-F originally wasn't even an accepted project and was basically a 'hot-rod' pushed through by the minority in Lexus. How you're going to compare a Mustang to it is beyond me, I don't get the comparison to an old engine in the IS-F to a completely new one that barely performs as well. None of that is even relevant to BMW and Toyota cooperation this thread is about anyway!
So many things wrong with this part of your post there's no reason to even argue. Lexus is known for it's supple ride, even the new F-Sport models. GT-86 chassis was not tuned by Subaru, that's another myth. The IS-F engine is how many years old? What's funny is the IS-F originally wasn't even an accepted project and was basically a 'hot-rod' pushed through by the minority in Lexus. How you're going to compare a Mustang to it is beyond me, I don't get the comparison to an old engine in the IS-F to a completely new one that barely performs as well. None of that is even relevant to BMW and Toyota cooperation this thread is about anyway!The IS-F engine's age is a GREAT point. Why is this engine still being used and why is Lexus waiting so long to change it? The Mustang is being compared for good reason. The Coyote 5.0 motor makes more power and IIRC is more fuel efficient AND went from concept to release in the span of 2 years done by a company that does not have a great past regarding high-revving DOHC engines. This is no special edition engine either as there are more powerful variants. And it hardly 'barely performs as well'. Most would say it outperforms it with ease, especially the Boss 302 variant. One would think Toyota could at least equal that (they've got the tech and the know-how for sure), but it hasn't. Maybe that will change with the new IS-F.
Motor aside, the Mustang GT with the sport suspension runs right alongside the IS-F on most tracks and just a hairs breath behind the M3. This isn't the same car it used to be. Go give one a test drive. I'd own one myself if I could get over the look of it. The upcoming 2015 renders look very Aston Martin-esque and I'll be checking it out when it does arrive.
Last edited by Bean; 01-29-13 at 01:09 PM.
01-29-13, 01:07 PM
#41
BMW and the Germans in general have done a great job supporting those that want to modify with their forced induction engines in the modern day. Clearly Toyota gave up and went the hybrid route and finally is back making sporty cars again. The Germans have to be commended for these engines which can be modified simply with a plug and play ECU or new data map. I would love if our GS F-sport could also be taken to a shop and have its ECU tweaked for 50 more hp. Sadly that is impossible.
Totally agree on stock Supra turbo lag
I would love if our GS F-sport could also be taken to a shop and have its ECU tweaked for 50 more hp. Sadly that is impossible. Totally agree on stock Supra turbo lag
01-29-13, 01:36 PM
#42
Pole Position
I like how you twist facts to make the M3 look good. The M3 engine has poor torque down low and is a less liveable engine than the ISF engine which has a more flexible torque range allowing it to be a better daily driver. And the ISF has better fuel economy than the M3. I notice you dare not compare the V8 of the M3 directly to that of the ISF (mainly because it is inferior to the ISF) but instead use a Ford engine as a proxy to bash the ISF since the M3 engine frankly pales in a head to head against the ISF's 5L V8. Guess which one gets slapped with a gas guzzler tax and which one doesn't? : )
Guess what? Everything you use as a negative point against the ISF engine vs the Ford engine applies even more against the M3.
And as previous posters have pointed out, with the latest suspension upgrades to the current gen ISF, the M3 is no longer a superior track beast to its Lexus rival.
Guess what? Everything you use as a negative point against the ISF engine vs the Ford engine applies even more against the M3.
And as previous posters have pointed out, with the latest suspension upgrades to the current gen ISF, the M3 is no longer a superior track beast to its Lexus rival.
01-29-13, 02:09 PM
#43
Since when does down-low torque matter on a track? Since when does peak torque actually matter here at all? Is this a discussion over what car is more pleasant to pick up groceries in or how it performs on a track?
And yes, the M3 motor is superior in a performance-oriented way vs the ISF motor, I thought that was a given; it makes more power and has a more track-friendly powerband; if you haven't, go test-drive one. Have you seen a stock M3s powerband before? That torque-curve is so flat for so long; its extremely predictable and very wide. I wasn't discussing the M3's engine regarding efficiency or mileage (it doesn't have DI like the Lexus motor), it wasn't made with that in mind. And it does this with less displacement (a full liter mind you, the ISF has 25% more displacement and DI).
If 'paling in a head to head' has anything to do with a gas guzzler tax, then I think we're arguing about different things here. I figured this was all a given and understood; not trying to make some proxy attack here as the Coyote fares quite well against the S65 too (especially in the cost department). I can't wait to see what the Coyote does with DI.
Most of my comments are also regarding the pre 2010 IS-F model as well as it was my experience with the car. I'll have to test drive a newer one ASAP and possibly revise my opinion
And yes, the M3 motor is superior in a performance-oriented way vs the ISF motor, I thought that was a given; it makes more power and has a more track-friendly powerband; if you haven't, go test-drive one. Have you seen a stock M3s powerband before? That torque-curve is so flat for so long; its extremely predictable and very wide. I wasn't discussing the M3's engine regarding efficiency or mileage (it doesn't have DI like the Lexus motor), it wasn't made with that in mind. And it does this with less displacement (a full liter mind you, the ISF has 25% more displacement and DI).
If 'paling in a head to head' has anything to do with a gas guzzler tax, then I think we're arguing about different things here. I figured this was all a given and understood; not trying to make some proxy attack here as the Coyote fares quite well against the S65 too (especially in the cost department). I can't wait to see what the Coyote does with DI.
Most of my comments are also regarding the pre 2010 IS-F model as well as it was my experience with the car. I'll have to test drive a newer one ASAP and possibly revise my opinion
01-29-13, 02:25 PM
#44
Pole Position
Don't hide behind Ford. The M3 engine has to stand up to scrutiny in a head to head against the ISF's engine since we're talking about the technical strengths of Toyota vs BMW products. And guess what the M3 doesn't fare too well in a point by point comparison to the ISF.
And you are wrong - the M3 engine makes less power than the ISF, has poorer torque in lower revs and has poorer fuel efficiency.
There's this thing called Google - I suggest you use it.
And you are wrong - the M3 engine makes less power than the ISF, has poorer torque in lower revs and has poorer fuel efficiency.
There's this thing called Google - I suggest you use it.
Last edited by natnut; 01-29-13 at 08:10 PM.
01-29-13, 02:32 PM
#45
There is no some cross transfer of ALL technology between the companies, it is very specific...
1. BMW will buy into Toyota EV/Hybrid parts, including lithium batteries
2. BMW will buy into Toyota Fuel Cell stuff
3. Toyota will buy 1.6l and 2.0l EuroVI diesels from BMW
4. Toyota will possibly buy carbon fibre from BMW/SGL new factory.
5. Toyota and BMW will look into possibly making sports car together.
BMW's will not suddenly start being more reliable and Toyota will not suddenly have tripple turbo engines. Last time they cooperated when BMW got small diesel from Toyota.
1. BMW will buy into Toyota EV/Hybrid parts, including lithium batteries
2. BMW will buy into Toyota Fuel Cell stuff
3. Toyota will buy 1.6l and 2.0l EuroVI diesels from BMW
4. Toyota will possibly buy carbon fibre from BMW/SGL new factory.
5. Toyota and BMW will look into possibly making sports car together.
BMW's will not suddenly start being more reliable and Toyota will not suddenly have tripple turbo engines. Last time they cooperated when BMW got small diesel from Toyota.
