Toyota to OverHaul Engines
10-13-13, 10:09 PM
#61
That was pretty much my original point. It's tough to go wrong with a simple naturally aspirated engine with the latest technologies, giving you a substantial boost in fuel mileage at a fraction of the cost of other more elaborate tech (diesels, hybrids, etc). Although even direct injection isn't foolproof as I still don't think they've resolved the carbon buildup issues with that technology, besides Toyota's dual injection approach but which is far more costly. All of this is the hidden cost of the new EPA fuel mileage requirements. Cars today are just plain going to be a lot harder and more costly to maintain 10 years out than today's 10 year old cars. I'm certainly not expecting either of our turbo Bimmers to make it to 100k miles without needing major repairs. But considering that even Honda Accords are direct injected now, could you expect one of those to make it to high mileage without needing a head cleaning/rebuilding from carbon build-up?
10-13-13, 10:11 PM
#62
Well, nobody is buying a hybrid camry for performance. 
A four cylinder Camry is just simply a smarter buy for vast majority of shoppers, and if you don't believe me - check the cash register.
In a performance car, I'd take turbos over hybrid any time. Way too many drawbacks with hybrids, and for the most part performance is lacking compared to turbo engines with similar displacement.
A four cylinder Camry is just simply a smarter buy for vast majority of shoppers, and if you don't believe me - check the cash register.
In a performance car, I'd take turbos over hybrid any time. Way too many drawbacks with hybrids, and for the most part performance is lacking compared to turbo engines with similar displacement.
1.6l Turbo in Fusion is slower, gets 10 worse and costs more than non turbo. So whats the point?
10-13-13, 10:17 PM
#63
Exactly my point, turbo engines in budget cars are stupid.
10-14-13, 03:36 AM
#64
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Consumer Reports:
City / Highway / Overall
Mazda6: 22 / 44 / 32 mpg
Camry: 19 / 41 / 27 mpg
Accord: 21 / 40 / 30 mpg
Altima: 21 / 44 / 31 mpg
That's Consumer Reports own independent and controlled city and highway fuel mileage tests. The 6 is best in class, which is not surprising considering it has one of the most advanced engines. The Camry brings up the rear.
10-14-13, 03:44 AM
#65
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When hybrids were new and petrol powered cars were only getting low-20 MPG overall and 30-ish mpg highway, stepping up to a hybrid was a huge difference. But being able to get 30 mpg overall now and 40 mpg highway with no price premium at all with the latest gen of cars, many people are thinking twice about hybrids and if they're really worth it or not, and plenty are opting out, even those who have bought them before.
10-14-13, 04:11 AM
#66
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Are you sure the Accord is stealing Camry sales because of the hybrid or because the Accord is overall a compelling package? Talk about cherry picking facts.
I think many people are arguing against hybrids when "hybrid" is not ONE monilithic class.
Fact of the matter is, there are at least TWO different classes of hybrids :
Performance hybrids like the Porsche, Ferrari and even the Lexus GS450h and Infiniti M35h.
Then there are the Efficiency hybrids like the CT200h, the ES300h, the GS300h and IS300h...
As a luxury "efficiency" argument, hybrids are already pretty compelling as they are already close to beating turbodiesels for real world fuel efficiency with a refinement and quietness that diesels still can't beat. AND with none of the carcinogenic particulate emissions that diesels are infamous for.
As Performance Luxury vehicles, it's just a matter of maturation of the market and the tech. Right now Porsche and Ferrari have shown that hybrid can be a very credible performance package. For a price premium.
Lexus GS450h and Infiniti M35h are straddling the efficiency/performance continuum but with more tech trickling down from Toyota's research into the TS030 hyperperformance hybrid race car,it will only a matter of time that Lexus bring hyper performance hybrids into the mainstream luxury segment and at mainstream luxury costs.
I think many people are arguing against hybrids when "hybrid" is not ONE monilithic class.
Fact of the matter is, there are at least TWO different classes of hybrids :
Performance hybrids like the Porsche, Ferrari and even the Lexus GS450h and Infiniti M35h.
Then there are the Efficiency hybrids like the CT200h, the ES300h, the GS300h and IS300h...
As a luxury "efficiency" argument, hybrids are already pretty compelling as they are already close to beating turbodiesels for real world fuel efficiency with a refinement and quietness that diesels still can't beat. AND with none of the carcinogenic particulate emissions that diesels are infamous for.
As Performance Luxury vehicles, it's just a matter of maturation of the market and the tech. Right now Porsche and Ferrari have shown that hybrid can be a very credible performance package. For a price premium.
Lexus GS450h and Infiniti M35h are straddling the efficiency/performance continuum but with more tech trickling down from Toyota's research into the TS030 hyperperformance hybrid race car,it will only a matter of time that Lexus bring hyper performance hybrids into the mainstream luxury segment and at mainstream luxury costs.
Last edited by natnut; 10-14-13 at 04:33 AM.
10-14-13, 05:51 AM
#67
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Bottom line is that even the base Camry, which brings up the rear in its class as far as overall efficiency, is still good enough to steer people away from hybrids. I have no doubt that the Accord Hybrid will be an awesome car, but with a starting price of $39k it's not going to be stealing sales away from anybody. You could nearly buy TWO regular Honda Accords for the price of one Hybrid. At $40k, most people around here would rather be driving an entry luxury car from either Japan or German.
10-14-13, 07:29 AM
#69
I'm waiting for air hybrids with pneumatic valve systems. They should result in much simpler drivetrains by eliminating the need for combining power from two sources, and will reduce parasitic loss on the motor by eliminating the camshaft.
Air is compressed in situations similar to how regenerative braking is used now, and pumped through the engine to accelerate.
Pneumatic valves allow complete control over valve lift height and duration which should improve power and emissions.
Air is compressed in situations similar to how regenerative braking is used now, and pumped through the engine to accelerate.
Pneumatic valves allow complete control over valve lift height and duration which should improve power and emissions.
10-14-13, 12:23 PM
#72
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10-14-13, 12:36 PM
#73
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Just by nature of volume you will have Camry's and Accords on dealer lots. The fact of the matter is people trust the Camry hybrid and its accurate MPG ratings compared to FLUFFERY by other brands. Hyundai again just lowered the 2014 Sonata ratings.
Not everyone gives a **** about peak hp ratings or peak MPG based on unicorn math. Some people trust what is proven.
Getting to engines, Lexus used to be at the lead to me with BMW with engines but that is no longer the case. While perfectly adequate they are not class leading except in maybe reliability. I can't wait to see the new powerplants and what they offer. They cannot go another 5 years to me with the same engines.
Not everyone gives a **** about peak hp ratings or peak MPG based on unicorn math. Some people trust what is proven.
Getting to engines, Lexus used to be at the lead to me with BMW with engines but that is no longer the case. While perfectly adequate they are not class leading except in maybe reliability. I can't wait to see the new powerplants and what they offer. They cannot go another 5 years to me with the same engines.
10-14-13, 12:39 PM
#74
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Not really, just your usual and expected cherry-picking of stats.
Consumer Reports:
City / Highway / Overall
Mazda6: 22 / 44 / 32 mpg
Camry: 19 / 41 / 27 mpg
Accord: 21 / 40 / 30 mpg
Altima: 21 / 44 / 31 mpg
That's Consumer Reports own independent and controlled city and highway fuel mileage tests. The 6 is best in class, which is not surprising considering it has one of the most advanced engines. The Camry brings up the rear.
Consumer Reports:
City / Highway / Overall
Mazda6: 22 / 44 / 32 mpg
Camry: 19 / 41 / 27 mpg
Accord: 21 / 40 / 30 mpg
Altima: 21 / 44 / 31 mpg
That's Consumer Reports own independent and controlled city and highway fuel mileage tests. The 6 is best in class, which is not surprising considering it has one of the most advanced engines. The Camry brings up the rear.
10-14-13, 01:02 PM
#75
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How do people know that Ford's EcoBoost engines and SOME other turbo-petrol engines haven't lived up to mileage claims, hmm? Look into that and you'll have your answer there. (Hint: It's not by looking up MT data).