Audi reveals electric turbocharger technology
09-22-12, 10:07 PM
#1
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Audi reveals electric turbocharger technology
Audi is working on a new bi-turbo engine which uses an electrically-driven turbocharger to completely eliminate turbo lag and markedly increase standing-start performance.
The prototype is based on Audi’s new 3.0-litre V6 TDI Bi-turbo engine, and is described by the company as being in the ‘development phase’. This experimental V6 diesel uses a conventional exhaust-driven main turbocharger with the small motor-driven turbocharger being used exclusively at low speeds.
Reducing turbo lag - the gap between the driver pressing the accelerator and the effect of the turbo’s boost - has been the subject of engineer’s efforts for three decades. The fundamental problem is the need for a sufficient volume of exhaust gasses to be generated by the engine and then directed at the turbocharger, in order to get it running at high speed.
However, when the engine is running at lower speeds, the volume of gas isn’t enough to spool the turbocharger up to its operating speed. Current turbocharged engines get around this problem by using two turbos. The smaller turbo can be brought into action with smaller volumes of exhaust gas and bridges the gap until the bigger turbo can be brought into play.
Audi’s new system, however, totally eliminates lag, greatly boosts low-speed performance and is fundamentally simpler than the twin-turbo and triple turbo set-ups used by the likes of BMW.
Audi’s electric turbocharger sits in the induction system, downstream of the conventional turbo and the intercooler and is normally not operative. However, at very low speeds - particularly from standstill - the air charged by the main turbo is re-directed through the electric turbocharger, which is already spinning at high speed, and pushed with much greater force into the engine.
A brief drive of a prototype unit in an Audi A6 showed the electric bi-turbo set-up to be dramatically effective. The torque boost from a standing start with the electric turbo in operation delivers what can probably be described as sub-supercar performance. Audi’s own tests claim that, back-to-back with a conventional V6 TDI, the electric Bi-Turbo car was two car lengths further down the road just three seconds after launch.
This early prototype showed there was a just-definable dip in the torque delivery as the electric turbo gave way to main the turbo, but it is clear that electric turbocharging is set to significantly enhance the performance of forced-induction engines and deliver a step-change in the standing-start performance.
There’s no news on when the system will go into production, but the next-generation 2014 Audi A4, bases on the new alloy-steel hybrid MLB platform, looks likely to receive this engine.
The prototype is based on Audi’s new 3.0-litre V6 TDI Bi-turbo engine, and is described by the company as being in the ‘development phase’. This experimental V6 diesel uses a conventional exhaust-driven main turbocharger with the small motor-driven turbocharger being used exclusively at low speeds.
Reducing turbo lag - the gap between the driver pressing the accelerator and the effect of the turbo’s boost - has been the subject of engineer’s efforts for three decades. The fundamental problem is the need for a sufficient volume of exhaust gasses to be generated by the engine and then directed at the turbocharger, in order to get it running at high speed.
However, when the engine is running at lower speeds, the volume of gas isn’t enough to spool the turbocharger up to its operating speed. Current turbocharged engines get around this problem by using two turbos. The smaller turbo can be brought into action with smaller volumes of exhaust gas and bridges the gap until the bigger turbo can be brought into play.
Audi’s new system, however, totally eliminates lag, greatly boosts low-speed performance and is fundamentally simpler than the twin-turbo and triple turbo set-ups used by the likes of BMW.
Audi’s electric turbocharger sits in the induction system, downstream of the conventional turbo and the intercooler and is normally not operative. However, at very low speeds - particularly from standstill - the air charged by the main turbo is re-directed through the electric turbocharger, which is already spinning at high speed, and pushed with much greater force into the engine.
A brief drive of a prototype unit in an Audi A6 showed the electric bi-turbo set-up to be dramatically effective. The torque boost from a standing start with the electric turbo in operation delivers what can probably be described as sub-supercar performance. Audi’s own tests claim that, back-to-back with a conventional V6 TDI, the electric Bi-Turbo car was two car lengths further down the road just three seconds after launch.
This early prototype showed there was a just-definable dip in the torque delivery as the electric turbo gave way to main the turbo, but it is clear that electric turbocharging is set to significantly enhance the performance of forced-induction engines and deliver a step-change in the standing-start performance.
There’s no news on when the system will go into production, but the next-generation 2014 Audi A4, bases on the new alloy-steel hybrid MLB platform, looks likely to receive this engine.
09-22-12, 10:35 PM
#2
Pole Position
Lexus has had something similar since 2006.
It's called the "Lexus Hybrid Synergy Drive" aka the hybrid engine in the GS450h. Another way of viewing the hybrid engine in a Lexus GS450h is a GS350 engine with electric supercharger. And unlike the Audi system where there is still a dip in torque delivery, torque delivery in Hybrid Synergy Drive is seamless.
It's called the "Lexus Hybrid Synergy Drive" aka the hybrid engine in the GS450h. Another way of viewing the hybrid engine in a Lexus GS450h is a GS350 engine with electric supercharger. And unlike the Audi system where there is still a dip in torque delivery, torque delivery in Hybrid Synergy Drive is seamless.
09-23-12, 12:14 PM
#3
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^ that's rubbish talk.
Anyway, I know for a fact that Toyota has been working on technology somewhat similar to this for a while. Disappointing to see Audi beat them to market.
Anyway, I know for a fact that Toyota has been working on technology somewhat similar to this for a while. Disappointing to see Audi beat them to market.
09-23-12, 01:08 PM
#4
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09-23-12, 01:14 PM
#5
Subaru is working the the same tech, there was an article posted I think on this forum a few months ago.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/03/n...-turbocharger/
In any case, you can buy electric turbo charger on ebay for like $18.99
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/03/n...-turbocharger/
In any case, you can buy electric turbo charger on ebay for like $18.99
09-23-12, 10:51 PM
#6
problem with electric turbos is that they are ultimately less efficient and cost more... basically you have extra step in the process. But you get faster "spool" time.
so i bet they all are working on making this possible in the future.
In hybrids it is very different as they already store energy into the batteries and then simply use that energy via electric motors for acceleration. it bypasses the petrol engine completely.
so i bet they all are working on making this possible in the future.
In hybrids it is very different as they already store energy into the batteries and then simply use that energy via electric motors for acceleration. it bypasses the petrol engine completely.
09-24-12, 12:41 AM
#7
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this would make sense if they go with a tri-turbo setup
small electric turbo using like Dyson vacuum's motor or something lol
medium turbo for mid-range
bigger turbo for high-range high power band
ignore me...
just a crazy man talking
small electric turbo using like Dyson vacuum's motor or something lol
medium turbo for mid-range
bigger turbo for high-range high power band
ignore me...
just a crazy man talking
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09-24-12, 11:50 AM
#8
problem with electric turbos is that they are ultimately less efficient and cost more... basically you have extra step in the process. But you get faster "spool" time.
so i bet they all are working on making this possible in the future.
In hybrids it is very different as they already store energy into the batteries and then simply use that energy via electric motors for acceleration. it bypasses the petrol engine completely.
so i bet they all are working on making this possible in the future.
In hybrids it is very different as they already store energy into the batteries and then simply use that energy via electric motors for acceleration. it bypasses the petrol engine completely.
It sounds like at a specific threshold, the electric turbo is completely bypassed - possibly leading to the loss in torque as the air is re-routed and some boost is lost?
09-24-12, 12:45 PM
#9
Technically, the electric driven compressor is not a turbocharger. The turbo in turbocharger refers to the turbine that is driven exhaust gasses. The correct term for this application is an electric supercharger.
The combination of the electric supercharger and a turbocharger makes a lot of sense for smooth power right from idle where the turbo provides little boost. I wonder, however, with the added cost of the electric system if this is a better solution for a passenger car than an engine driven supercharger. The engine driven supercharger delivers good torque from low rpm. It does use up some of the engine horsepower at high speed so it is not as effecient as a turbocharger for racing applications. For street use, however, it is a good solution.
Another solution is the Ford Ecoboost V-6 which uses 2 tiny turbos that get to speed very quickly. They don't produce a lot of boost for top end power but do wonders for low/mid-range torque. The 3.5 liter engine produces 420 ft. lb of torque for the F-150 application.
Perhaps the best of all solutions is a small turbocharged engine coupled to a hybrid system.
Sorry for the long rambling reply.
Steve
The combination of the electric supercharger and a turbocharger makes a lot of sense for smooth power right from idle where the turbo provides little boost. I wonder, however, with the added cost of the electric system if this is a better solution for a passenger car than an engine driven supercharger. The engine driven supercharger delivers good torque from low rpm. It does use up some of the engine horsepower at high speed so it is not as effecient as a turbocharger for racing applications. For street use, however, it is a good solution.
Another solution is the Ford Ecoboost V-6 which uses 2 tiny turbos that get to speed very quickly. They don't produce a lot of boost for top end power but do wonders for low/mid-range torque. The 3.5 liter engine produces 420 ft. lb of torque for the F-150 application.
Perhaps the best of all solutions is a small turbocharged engine coupled to a hybrid system.
Sorry for the long rambling reply.
Steve
09-24-12, 01:17 PM
#10
Technically, the electric driven compressor is not a turbocharger. The turbo in turbocharger refers to the turbine that is driven exhaust gasses. The correct term for this application is an electric supercharger.
The combination of the electric supercharger and a turbocharger makes a lot of sense for smooth power right from idle where the turbo provides little boost. I wonder, however, with the added cost of the electric system if this is a better solution for a passenger car than an engine driven supercharger. The engine driven supercharger delivers good torque from low rpm. It does use up some of the engine horsepower at high speed so it is not as effecient as a turbocharger for racing applications. For street use, however, it is a good solution.
Another solution is the Ford Ecoboost V-6 which uses 2 tiny turbos that get to speed very quickly. They don't produce a lot of boost for top end power but do wonders for low/mid-range torque. The 3.5 liter engine produces 420 ft. lb of torque for the F-150 application.
Perhaps the best of all solutions is a small turbocharged engine coupled to a hybrid system.
Sorry for the long rambling reply.
Steve
The combination of the electric supercharger and a turbocharger makes a lot of sense for smooth power right from idle where the turbo provides little boost. I wonder, however, with the added cost of the electric system if this is a better solution for a passenger car than an engine driven supercharger. The engine driven supercharger delivers good torque from low rpm. It does use up some of the engine horsepower at high speed so it is not as effecient as a turbocharger for racing applications. For street use, however, it is a good solution.
Another solution is the Ford Ecoboost V-6 which uses 2 tiny turbos that get to speed very quickly. They don't produce a lot of boost for top end power but do wonders for low/mid-range torque. The 3.5 liter engine produces 420 ft. lb of torque for the F-150 application.
Perhaps the best of all solutions is a small turbocharged engine coupled to a hybrid system.
Sorry for the long rambling reply.
Steve
I can see supercharged hybrids because it is the most efficient route - atkinson cycle engine was designed to be used with supercharger, which transforms it to miller cycle engine. Nissan has 1.0l 3cly Miller cycle engine (supercharger + Atkinson cycle) but it is too expensive for the car they sell it in, so they dont get to sell much of those.
09-24-12, 04:31 PM
#11
there isnt much sense i turbocharged hybrid though, because electric motors really do provide same benefits as turbo.... low end torque.
I can see supercharged hybrids because it is the most efficient route - atkinson cycle engine was designed to be used with supercharger, which transforms it to miller cycle engine. Nissan has 1.0l 3cly Miller cycle engine (supercharger + Atkinson cycle) but it is too expensive for the car they sell it in, so they dont get to sell much of those.
I can see supercharged hybrids because it is the most efficient route - atkinson cycle engine was designed to be used with supercharger, which transforms it to miller cycle engine. Nissan has 1.0l 3cly Miller cycle engine (supercharger + Atkinson cycle) but it is too expensive for the car they sell it in, so they dont get to sell much of those.
This sort of technology, if done right, could result in something that has the efficiency of a hybrid but with lower cost. America isn't Audi's only market...
09-26-12, 08:26 AM
#12
Lexus Champion
This technical stuff is interesting......but I have a question:
-Does this kind of setup make the system even more complex? (since your force induction uses electricity)
-Does this kind of setup make the system even more complex? (since your force induction uses electricity)
09-26-12, 08:46 AM
#13
but you dont get efficiency of an hybrid though...
09-26-12, 09:50 AM
#14
Steve
09-26-12, 10:04 AM
#15
As an owner of a turbocharged car I agree.
Turbochargers are only efficient in the sense you don't need as large of an engine to make the same power. You consume a lot of fuel when you're making full boost. More air means more fuel is needed.
Stay out of boost and sure you can make decent fuel economy.
Turbochargers are only efficient in the sense you don't need as large of an engine to make the same power. You consume a lot of fuel when you're making full boost. More air means more fuel is needed.
Stay out of boost and sure you can make decent fuel economy.
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