pbm317

I think LexsCTJill's comment is specifically for this upper executive sedan segment, in which case yes, people do indeed want a LUXURY badge when spending this kind of cash. See failure of Phaeton, lackluster Equus and now even lower K900 sales.

mmarshall

I understand your point, but, with the Equus and K900, I'm not so sure if it's that, or if it is just many people still living in the past, with some of their preconceived notions....the idea that the Koreans can't do true luxury cars. Don't forget, after about the year 2000 or so, Hyundai and Kia began to build substantially better products than the junk of the 80s/90s, but it took the public (even a number of those on this forum) several years to acknowledge it and really start buying their products in droves. Now we see the Koreans doing first-class luxury cars (as VW also did with the Phaeton) at relatively bargain prices, but the public not really acknowledging it (yet). Perhaps (?) they will with time. We'll see.

GISguy

Looks obese. Hideous grille. That said, I bet it's a decent car and quite a bargain. I'd still get a Gen sedan over it, though.

mmarshall

Yes, there are some valid reasons for choosing a Genesis 5.0 over the K900. The interior materials are just as good if not better, even at the Genesis's lower price. If you want (or need) AWD, the Genesis 3.8 (but not the 5.0) offers it. And, if power is your thing, the Genesis 5.0 has the same engine/transmission combo as the K900 but is significantly lighter, which means more spunk when you hit the gas and slightly better handling.

Toys4RJill

For most real luxury brands, the prestige and all that comes with it is what is important. The K900 has none of that, it does not matter how good the car is. People want the luxury brands and they will pay a premium for it. It is kind of like cell phone users, even though there are far superior phones on the market, people still buy the Apple iPhone because that is what they want.

TangoRed

Unlike the other models in that group, BMW considers the X6 to be a sales success.

SW17LS

My issue with the K900, Equus, Genesis is not that they are Korean. Nobody who has driven one would say they aren't excellent cars. My issue is the brand. Part of having a large flagship sedan is what it says about you and what you have achieved. I wouldn't buy a $65,000 Toyota either.

It is what it is. Luxury has a lot to do with brand.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

(bold text added)

the exact same arguments were made by mercedes fans when lexus was launched. granted toyota made a HUGE splash by spending a fortune (and getting dealers to invest fortunes) to create a new brand and marketing campaign. it worked but the german brands in particular fought back like they were fighting for their lives (which they were) and have essentially blown past lexus in model scope and sophistication. lexus is still a luxury brand, but it is still a notch behind several other brands now. having said that, of course the hyundai/kia dual brands are nowhere close in terms of luxury branding / reputation and didn't spend billions like lexus on r&d and marketing to create a new brand. many will say this is why they can't succeed, but the market situation is VERY different from the late 80's. today you can buy a toyota camry that is vastly more sophisticated than a mercedes s class was back then. it may even have better leather and materials too.

but yes, for SOME buyers (particularly of high end sedans), "status" and "brand" and "badges" are important. they've NEVER been important to me and many others though.

that analogy doesn't work as the iphone was a) the FIRST truly usable and useful touchscreen phone, and b) even today it has a unique user experience and very high touch quality about it that sets it apart even if some other phones can brag about bigger screens or more 'widgets'.

$60K gets you a reasonably loaded GS. it doesn't get you that far in the german brands. but then again, most luxury cars are leased anyway so price is less important.

your grand cherokee is jeep's 'luxury' vehicle, but most would probably not see it as a luxury vehicle based on the brand and badge. we both know your jeep is excellent and luxurious though!

mmarshall

I have an iPhone4 myself, and, even though it is considered obsolete today with the iphone5 and 6 models out, it still has far more features on it than I ever use day to day, and I'm very impressed on how well it was made. It is solid, and doesn't feel or operate like a flimsy piece of plastic.



Yep. Today's JGC may not be the most reliable vehicle on the market (owners are still reporting some problems), but it looks and drives like a luxury-grade SUV. The last one I sampled, I thought, was more pleasing to drive than the far more expensive Mercedes GL and ML.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

about this, i just looked at consumer reports car guide on a news stand (possibly what your comment above is based on since you're a fan) and it showed JGC reliability as much worse than average but if you then look at the detailed review, they only show 1 year of ratings and in that column the ONLY data point it shows worse than average is the AUDIO system. everything else is good or great. so how CR concludes that makes the whole vehicle worse than average is beyond me. CR does immense harm to brands based on their RIDICULOUS rating system.

JGC did have some issues with early 14s and the switch to the ZF 8 speed auto software, but those seem to be behind them.

LexBob2

I came across the 2013 automotive issue of CR and the JGC is "Recommended" with "Average" reliability and a good Road Test Score. I wouldn't think the 2014 issue would be much different.

SW17LS

Totally different though. Lexus itself was a premium brand, they created a new premium brand but they created one nonetheless. The same argument would be if the LS400 were sold here as the Toyota Celsior...it would not have caught on like it did.

As somebody who is a car guy and who works in an image profession, I have worked hard to be able to purchase something $60k+ and I really don't want to buy a Hyundai or a Kia. For a lot of buyers this is a crowning purchase, something they have been working for and saving for...and the brand is important. If you've had 5 LS's or 5 S Classes and want to save some money, maybe. But, to me when I own a flagship car its a time when I no longer look at other cars and say "I want that". If I had an Equus or K900...I would always look at an LS or an A8 or an S550 and say "THATS what I really want".

If it were an "Equus" branded car with Equus dealers and wasn't a Hyundai...I would get one...no question. Thats the type of car I want for the type of money I want to pay...but the image that buyer wants to project isn't "wow he saved a lot of money".

Then the question is...why do these vehicles sell so poorly? The K900 is VERY slow selling, Equus is not much better. The Genesis does okay, but its in a price point where it appeals to buyers who aren't really luxury buyers. I think brand matters to more people than you think.

No I agree. I did not however set out to make a luxury purchase, and it is not my primary vehicle. My first Jeep was a Laredo X Model, and I liked it and replaced it with a nicer trim model for more features. If I were buying an SUV for myself to drive as someone who is in an image business and cares about luxury and brand I would not buy a Grand Cherokee.

SUVs are a little different too. The "Jeep" name has a status all its own, its just a different status.

Toys4RJill

The question to why they sell so poorly is because there is no market for them . The K900 can have all the options standard, people would still rather have a Lexus, BMW, or Audi.

mmarshall

CR, of course, has their own criteria. I was also going by what some actual owners here in CL have posted in Car Chat.

I wouldn't call it ridiculous, but, CR, though usually very good, occasionally does post some strange data. They did the same thing with the Verano when it first came out in 2012. They black-marked it for bodyintegrity/hardware and essentially gave it good marks everywhere else....but still a much-worse than average rating. But, for 2013, less then a year later, they completely reversed themselves and gave it a much-better-than-average rating....better than any other Buick, and one of the best of any GM product.

To specifically address your question, I think what causes that is that today's new vehicles are so reliable (not like those of years ago), that, compared to the average vehicle, it takes only a very small percentage of sample-problems (in CR's data, less than 2%) to make a vehicle markedly worse or better than average in reliability compared to the average of all vehicles. One or two black-marks can really make a difference.

mmarshall

Part of the Equus/K900 low-sales issue (among other factors) is that not all Kia/Hyundai shops actually sell and service them. I've long said that you cannot sell what your shop doesn't offer.