SW17LS

Right, and if you asked a K900 or Equus buyer all things being equal which car would they RATHER have? Its not the one they're buying, its an LS, a 7 Series, an A8, an S Class, whatever. If you're making a luxury purchase, and a purchase of a luxury flagship, you want to be buying the car you're buying...compromising isn't what its really about.

Lexus redefined what the luxury experience should be, and you see that influence in how every other company does business now, and in their product. Lexus wasn't successful just because it was a cheaper alternative of the real thing.

mmarshall

You partially have a point, but I also have to partially disagree. The LS400 revolutionized the luxury-car business because it beat Mercedes (the top-rated luxury brand of the 1980s) at their own game. The LS400 offered quality (except for undersized brake rotors that tended to warp), library-quiet ride, refinement, a strong power train, Toyota reliability, a top-notch dealer experience, and a substantially cheaper price ($35,000 to start) than comparable M-B products. The LS was so successful that Mercedes was forced to make cost-cutting measures to compete, which led to a decline on both their quality and reputation. Only now, more than 20 years later, are M-B products truly recovering from the hit they took in 1990s.

SW17LS

You actually do agree with me. Note I said Lexus was not ONLY successful because they were cheaper than the competition. A value proposition was a huge part of how Lexus started out, and remains there today. Note though that the price of the LS quickly rose from that very inexpensive $35k figure.

Its not enough just to be cheaper is my point.

mmarshall

True....but there was also a reason for that price increase. The LS400's successor (LS430), IMO, by traditional luxury-car standards, was a car that approached perfection....more so than even the succeeding LS460. The LS430, remains, to this day, IMO, the best luxury-sedan Lexus ever did.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

According to official published specification by Hyundai and Kia, the curb weight of the K900 is 14.0 lbs heavier then the Genesis 5.0.

Same engine/tranny/chassis, the weight can't be that much different, the K900 is only 4.1" longer overall with a 1.4" longer wheelbase.

http://www.kia.com/us/en/#/vehicle/k900/2015/features
https://www.hyundaiusa.com/genesis/specifications.aspx

SW17LS

I'm not even talking about the LS400 vs LS430 price point. The LS400 went up in price significantly even in its pre-refresh first generation. A 1994 LS400 which was essentially the same as a 1990 LS400 was $10,000 more expensive. The refreshed 1995 LS400 started some $17,000 more than the original 1990 LS, thats nearly 50% more! The refreshed 98 LS started around 54k and maxed out about 62k. The low price was just to get their foot in the door, once they had a foothold they very freely raised prices.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Hell yes, I absolutely love my LS430 UL everyday. To this day, I have yet to drive a gas powered car that surpass it's refinement. Not S-Class, not 7 Series, not A8, not Jaguar XJ. The only car that truely matches equally is a Bentley Flying spur. The S-Class's tranny is not as silky smooth, it came pretty close though.

I finally drove one car that blow away the refinement and quietness of my LS430. Is expected though, with no tranny and no gas combustion. The Tesla Model S. It take a world class ground breaking EV in 2013 to beat a 2001 LS430. Lexus is that good But that only apply to the drivetrain refinement. The chassis insulation is still not as good in the Model S.

mmarshall

The Genesis 5.0 RWD I sampled felt substantially faster than the K900.....although published empty curb weight alone probably wasn't the only factor. The K900 I drove also had the VIP package, which added a fair amount of of extra equipment (and, presumably, weight). The K900, unlike the Genesis, had a full tank of gas.....(the Genesis about half) and gas weighs roughly 8 pounds per gallon. And, on the Genesis test-drive, like many places, they sent me out alone, whereas the Kia shop, since it was the only unsold K900 left, sent a sales guy along with me...that, of course, added a few hundred extra pounds. Last, the Genesis's drive mode, in "Sport", unlike the K900's, actually DID seem to be more sport-oriented, at least in engine-response programming.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Yes I agree, the Japanese does that.

They did it again with the NSX and GTR, their prices increased 30%~50% in 4~5 years after their initial released price on essentially the same car.

pbm317

From Motor Trend:

Genesis 5.0 RWD in instrumented at 5.2 to 60 (slower than the 1st gen Genesis 4.8), K900 is 5.5.

K900 weighs 4,624 pounds, whereas the Genesis 5.0 is 4,588 in RWD form. Not a HUGE difference.

Genesis 5.0 Sport Mode actually changes dampers, etc, which the K900 does not.

Eventually K900 and Equus will migrate to the updated Genesis platform.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

A loaded K900 is 4643 lbs, so +102 lbs.
Half tank of gas at 6.3 lbs per gallon x 10 gallons = 63 lbs.
Fat sales guy = 250 lbs.

Ok that make more sense, +415 lbs with a more responsive engine throttle mapping, that would feel substantially quicker.

Not to mention you are probably more hesitant to floor it and drive aggressively with a sales guy in the car.

I think the more responsive engine throttle mapping gave you the biggest false sense of quickness.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

You can hardly feel 0.3 second differences.

Softer dampers actually feels quicker due to the bigger weight shift.

Toys4RJill

I agree with you, the only car from Hyundai that I think deserves a mention as being an alternative to a 5 series, GS and A6 would be the current model Genesis. But its more of an alternative of like Avalon vs ES or Lacrosse vs ES. Both the Avalon and Lacrosse are not luxury vehicles from a luxury brand but do somewhat compete as an alternative (rather than segment competitior) to the ES350.

SW17LS

The issue for the Genesis competing against the GS, 5 Series & A6 is going to be lease cost. Leases are so cheap on those cars, I don't know that Hyundai is going to be able to compete there.

I will say though I've seen a lot of new Genesis' around. I'm surprised that they have halogen DRLs instead of LED...

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

ha makes me feel nostalgic for old detroit sedans with floaty suspensions and big v8's. flooring them was a huge hoot.