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Old 06-21-12, 03:37 PM   #61
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I don't see the confusion. F/F-Sport is tuning the existing car. TMG isn't tuning the car, they're recreating it. We don't have all the details, but TMG is just as capable, if not more so at turning these cars into serious performance machines. Think of the F-Sport as upgrades to the car but nothing drastic. TMG is the drastic change. Everything is new. Transmission, redone engine, body, suspension... I think TMG version will be a step beyond the F-Sport/F cars. That's what I'm getting from this.
That's what the F is responsible for, think IS-F.
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Old 06-21-12, 04:40 PM   #62
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I don't see the confusion. F/F-Sport is tuning the existing car. TMG isn't tuning the car, they're recreating it. We don't have all the details, but TMG is just as capable, if not more so at turning these cars into serious performance machines. Think of the F-Sport as upgrades to the car but nothing drastic. TMG is the drastic change. Everything is new. Transmission, redone engine, body, suspension... I think TMG version will be a step beyond the F-Sport/F cars. That's what I'm getting from this.
You're confusing F-Sport with F. The IS-F for example does have its own transmission, engine, body and suspension. The F-Sport is the non-drastic upgrades that you mentioned. The introduction of a TMG line would be totally redundant in this case.
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Old 06-22-12, 02:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by TF109B View Post
I don't see the confusion. F/F-Sport is tuning the existing car. TMG isn't tuning the car, they're recreating it. We don't have all the details, but TMG is just as capable, if not more so at turning these cars into serious performance machines. Think of the F-Sport as upgrades to the car but nothing drastic. TMG is the drastic change. Everything is new. Transmission, redone engine, body, suspension... I think TMG version will be a step beyond the F-Sport/F cars. That's what I'm getting from this.
IS F (& CCS-R for that matter) is more than just tuning an existing IS. The same formula used on IS F is basically what TMG is doing to the LS. Toyota Technocraft (Japan) is responsible for building a lot of important projects including, this and the latest...IS F CCS-R.
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Old 06-22-12, 10:50 AM   #64
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It's not like the F isn't marketed in Europe. Both the IS-F and the LFA, as well as the F-Sport models, are sold in Europe. Main point here is that while TMG should be applauded for its involvement in tuning Lexus cars, it should never stamp its name on a production Lexus vehicle. That's what the F is for.
I agree.

Lexus has already created sufficient market confusion with the Fsport. I get it, know why they did it-- but we all know the IS Fsport and IS-F are from two different planets. There honestly is no comparison (no disrespect intended for owners of either car) as they are DRASICALLY different machines.

If it a luxury Supercar from Lexus--brand it "F".

It works.
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Old 06-22-12, 12:50 PM   #65
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If they can pull off a real LS series contender, I'm in.
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Old 06-22-12, 03:01 PM   #66
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I don't mind the name confusion for now as long as they are going to offer more AMG/M competitors and sportier cars. Surely the different sub-brands all want to be included but all won't make it. I never was a huge fan of the name "F" nor TMG but you can call it S.TF..U once they build it.

We are witnessing the birth of something great in our eyes b/c of the internet. Too many people forget that M started with 1 then 2 then 3 cars and AMG wasn't even a part of Mercedes until Mercedes bought them and made the C32 in 1994 or so. AMG had one car and look today they previewed around 30.

I'm sure there is a lot of fighting internally as again everyone wants to be that hardcore group that Aiko Toyoda wants making cars. Its a huge opportunity. We know with cars like the LFA and revised IS F and even the GS F sport they can make some outstanding driving cars.

I'm excited!
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Old 06-22-12, 03:40 PM   #67
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I don't mind the name confusion for now as long as they are going to offer more AMG/M competitors and sportier cars. Surely the different sub-brands all want to be included but all won't make it. I never was a huge fan of the name "F" nor TMG but you can call it S.TF..U once they build it.

We are witnessing the birth of something great in our eyes b/c of the internet. Too many people forget that M started with 1 then 2 then 3 cars and AMG wasn't even a part of Mercedes until Mercedes bought them and made the C32 in 1994 or so. AMG had one car and look today they previewed around 30.

I'm sure there is a lot of fighting internally as again everyone wants to be that hardcore group that Aiko Toyoda wants making cars. Its a huge opportunity. We know with cars like the LFA and revised IS F and even the GS F sport they can make some outstanding driving cars.

I'm excited!
well said...
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Old 06-22-12, 05:59 PM   #68
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Obviously people are taking my comments out of context, or I didn't make it clear enough. F cars aren't just tuned parts, I didn't mean that. I just meant F-Sport parts. TMG I think will go beyond what even the F models are. So far we have 1 F model, the IS-F. But TMG may take that spot or even become the F branded cars. It's yet to be determined though, but the naming issue will be solved by the time it's official. I'm speculating here, but F may not be any longer if TMG is used. I hope that's not the case and there are F cars as well as F-Sport. I do hope that TMG is used but the F Brand is held, so IS-F by TMG or TMG IS-F, perhaps the LS460 TMG edition becomes TMG LS-F. You get what I mean? The IS-F when introduced wasn't a 'fully supported' project. TMG on the other hand making the car means it's that model specifically made what it is by TMG. This can only lead to great things!
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Old 06-22-12, 06:17 PM   #69
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i dont see why exactly it needs to be called TMG... -F is fine for Lexus, as they said, they are engineering company, i doubt they care about the branding as that part is handled by marketing dept.

same goes for Toyota cars... marketing might decide that TMG doesnt fit and they can call it something else. However for Toyota, significance of creating single performance brand is big, as it has been missing. Lexus is already on good track, and if this helps them put out better -F cars, more of them and sooner, great.
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Old 06-22-12, 06:31 PM   #70
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F, fine tuned by TMG Performance. Black Series version of the F? Now that would make more sense.
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Old 06-23-12, 08:27 AM   #71
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Jeez. Much ado about nothing.

Nothing is wrong with TMG producing tuned versions of cars. They've done it for ages. They have a portfolio of machines. TMG = Toyota F1 = TTE, and they have existed in one form another since the 70's when Ove Anderson (Rest his soul) began campaigning Corollas at the behest of Toyota in European Rallies. "TMG" is not a copy of "AMG", it's abbreviation of Toyota Motorsports GmbH, while AMG = Aufrecht Melcher Großaspach, the names of the two founders and their birthplace. Pure Coincidence.

Everyone should be happy that TMG will work on Lexus and their F cars. F / F sport isn't going anywhere. All TMG are doing is trying to make a better business case for themselves, and Toyota is better as a company keeping them under their wing.

The IS F engineering team was an off the board project. Imagine what they can do with a full on deck engineering and motorsports crew. Kinda like having an in house Lotus Engineering. Lexus have done a lot of work establishing and promoting the F brand. It was born in Fuji, but nothing is wrong with improving the breed by sending it to university in cologne
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Old 06-23-12, 05:46 PM   #72
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Jeez. Much ado about nothing.

Nothing is wrong with TMG producing tuned versions of cars. They've done it for ages. They have a portfolio of machines. TMG = Toyota F1 = TTE, and they have existed in one form another since the 70's when Ove Anderson (Rest his soul) began campaigning Corollas at the behest of Toyota in European Rallies. "TMG" is not a copy of "AMG", it's abbreviation of Toyota Motorsports GmbH, while AMG = Aufrecht Melcher Großaspach, the names of the two founders and their birthplace. Pure Coincidence.

Everyone should be happy that TMG will work on Lexus and their F cars. F / F sport isn't going anywhere. All TMG are doing is trying to make a better business case for themselves, and Toyota is better as a company keeping them under their wing.

The IS F engineering team was an off the board project. Imagine what they can do with a full on deck engineering and motorsports crew. Kinda like having an in house Lotus Engineering. Lexus have done a lot of work establishing and promoting the F brand. It was born in Fuji, but nothing is wrong with improving the breed by sending it to university in cologne
I don't think anyone here is against the idea of TMG doing the engineering work for Lexus performance models. However, this thread is about an article that claims that Toyota is considering branding some of its performance cars with TMG, including possibly some Lexus models as demonstrated by the LS TMG Edition. That, is what some folks here and I are arguing against. TMG can do all their brilliant engineering work for Lexus but in the end the branding really should still be the F.

But then again like flipside909 suggests if the TMG branding is all about the hardcore, track-oriented versions of existing F models a la the Black Series or CSL, then I'm not against naming those models the IS-F TMG, GS-F TMG, LS-F TMG, etc., but they still have to have an F in the name before the TMG. That's what the Lexus F branding is all about.

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Old 06-23-12, 07:10 PM   #73
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I don't think anyone here is against the idea of TMG doing the engineering work for Lexus performance models. However, this thread is about an article that claims that Toyota is considering branding some of its performance cars with TMG, including possibly some Lexus models as demonstrated by the LS TMG Edition. That, is what some folks here and I are arguing against. TMG can do all their brilliant engineering work for Lexus but in the end the branding really should still be the F.

But then again like flipside909 suggests if the TMG branding is all about the hardcore, track-oriented versions of existing F models a la the Black Series or CSL, then I'm not against naming those models the IS-F TMG, GS-F TMG, LS-F TMG, etc., but they still have to have an F in the name before the TMG. That's what the Lexus F branding is all about.
TOM's have quite a few Lexus and Toyota models. No F to be seen. What's the issue?

Carlsson and Brabus do exclusive work for Mercedes. Alpina has their BMW lineup as well as Hartge. Yes, none of them are exactly "in house" but It doesn't affect AMG or M do they?
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Old 06-23-12, 10:09 PM   #74
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is TMG part of toyota or not?
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Old 06-23-12, 10:27 PM   #75
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TOM's have quite a few Lexus and Toyota models. No F to be seen. What's the issue?

Carlsson and Brabus do exclusive work for Mercedes. Alpina has their BMW lineup as well as Hartge. Yes, none of them are exactly "in house" but It doesn't affect AMG or M do they?
Carlsson, Brabus and Hartge.. seriously? You're totally confusing aftermarket tuners with in-house performance divisions/wholly owned subsidiaries.

When you buy from an aftermarket company, you are no longer dealing with the original manufacturer anymore, nor can you claim warranty from them. Alpina B7 is the sole exception here, but that's only because BMW does not make an M7 (yet). And yes for Alpina B7 to be sold through BMW's dealership channels it does create branding confusion for BMW M, which is why we very rarely see them around (compared to the S-Class AMG). Lexus needs one and only one performance marque for people to identify with, and that marque as we know it is the F. Adding another performance sub-brand within Lexus with no clear differentiation to the F only creates unnecessary confusion and dilution to Lexus's effort to build up its performance image.

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