C&D: Why Honda Is In Even More Trouble Than You Think [Deep Thoughts]
#1
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C&D: Why Honda Is In Even More Trouble Than You Think [Deep Thoughts]
Yes kind of another stating the obvious article about Honda but it has some good points and of course exaggerations.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/why-hon...deep-thoughts/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/why-hon...deep-thoughts/
To many observers, Honda appears to be going through the corporate equivalent of a mid-life crisis. Supply problems from the effects of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami and flooding in Thailand, along with less-than-complimentary write-ups on the new Civic by Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, and others, are bearing the brunt of the blame for the slump in calendar-year 2011 sales. Further issues: Acura’s inability to attain tier-one luxury-car consideration or status among consumers, Honda’s attempt to build a pickup truck, and the firm’s precipitous sales decline in its home market of Japan.
But even though it will raise the ire of Honda executives and brand loyalists alike, the company’s problems aren’t simply the aftereffects of the world’s climate gone mad or a substandard take on a bestselling vehicle.
It’s worse than that.
There is good reason to consider Honda to be in a similar place as General Motors was in, say, January of 1981. We need to preface this by saying the business and product environment of 31 years ago couldn’t be more different from the climate in which the Japanese company seems to be struggling today, but the parallels with what is happening to Honda now are all too familiar to students of The General’s decline.
In May of 2009, Jim Collins, an author who contributes to the Harvard Business Review and other business journals, published How the Mighty Fall. In the book, Collins describes the five stages of demise in the world of modern business. They are:
Stage 1: Hubris Born of Success
Stage 2: Undisciplined Pursuit of More
Stage 3: Denial of Risk and Peril
Stage 4: Grasping for Salvation
Stage 5: Capitulation to Irrelevance or Death
Looking back at General Motors from mid-1945 up to the fateful day in June of 2009 when it declared bankruptcy, the stages and their effects can easily be identified. It’s tougher with Honda, mainly because it’s going through the end of Stage 2, the shank of Stage 3, and the early part of Stage 4 all at the same time right now.
1) Hubris Born of Success
GM’s Stage 1 period saw the company release highly engineered but woefully underdeveloped products like the Vega’s liner-less aluminum-cylinder-block/iron-head engine and front-drive X-cars, the doomed-from-the-start development of the RC2-206 rotary engine, and the cylinder-deactivating Cadillac V-8-6-4. In the case of our subject Japanese automaker, Stage 1 was highlighted in 1973 by the company displaying a Chevrolet small-block V-8 with a revised induction system and CVCC heads to show that Honda’s combustion technology obviated the need for a catalytic converter to meet the stringent 1975 emissions regulations. Honda, an engine builder par excellence, developed a mechanical solution to a chemical problem: controlling exhaust emissions from an engine running on unleaded fuel. This was akin to developing a machine to cure a headache so you don’t have to take an aspirin. And then Honda stuck with CVCC long after the system’s sell-by date before moving to catalysts like everybody else.
In the 1987–1988 timeframe, Honda had its dealers and buyers all but begging for a six-cylinder engine in the Accord, but refused to accommodate the requests. The company’s argument was that a V-6 was unnecessary since the company could make an inline-four with as much power as a contemporary six. And while that last part was true, the company believed it was smarter than the market. This is a treacherous train of thought for any business. At the most elemental level, no company is smarter than its customers. It is the customer who knows what he will spend his money on, and American businesses spend billions annually to determine what motivates the consumer and what it takes to get him/her to shell out their dead presidents. (Fast forward to today, when many automakers are abandoning V-6s in their family sedans in favor of four-cylinder-only lineups, often using turbos to deliver six-cylinder power. The next Accord will offer a V-6.)
But even though it will raise the ire of Honda executives and brand loyalists alike, the company’s problems aren’t simply the aftereffects of the world’s climate gone mad or a substandard take on a bestselling vehicle.
It’s worse than that.
There is good reason to consider Honda to be in a similar place as General Motors was in, say, January of 1981. We need to preface this by saying the business and product environment of 31 years ago couldn’t be more different from the climate in which the Japanese company seems to be struggling today, but the parallels with what is happening to Honda now are all too familiar to students of The General’s decline.
In May of 2009, Jim Collins, an author who contributes to the Harvard Business Review and other business journals, published How the Mighty Fall. In the book, Collins describes the five stages of demise in the world of modern business. They are:
Stage 1: Hubris Born of Success
Stage 2: Undisciplined Pursuit of More
Stage 3: Denial of Risk and Peril
Stage 4: Grasping for Salvation
Stage 5: Capitulation to Irrelevance or Death
Looking back at General Motors from mid-1945 up to the fateful day in June of 2009 when it declared bankruptcy, the stages and their effects can easily be identified. It’s tougher with Honda, mainly because it’s going through the end of Stage 2, the shank of Stage 3, and the early part of Stage 4 all at the same time right now.
1) Hubris Born of Success
GM’s Stage 1 period saw the company release highly engineered but woefully underdeveloped products like the Vega’s liner-less aluminum-cylinder-block/iron-head engine and front-drive X-cars, the doomed-from-the-start development of the RC2-206 rotary engine, and the cylinder-deactivating Cadillac V-8-6-4. In the case of our subject Japanese automaker, Stage 1 was highlighted in 1973 by the company displaying a Chevrolet small-block V-8 with a revised induction system and CVCC heads to show that Honda’s combustion technology obviated the need for a catalytic converter to meet the stringent 1975 emissions regulations. Honda, an engine builder par excellence, developed a mechanical solution to a chemical problem: controlling exhaust emissions from an engine running on unleaded fuel. This was akin to developing a machine to cure a headache so you don’t have to take an aspirin. And then Honda stuck with CVCC long after the system’s sell-by date before moving to catalysts like everybody else.
In the 1987–1988 timeframe, Honda had its dealers and buyers all but begging for a six-cylinder engine in the Accord, but refused to accommodate the requests. The company’s argument was that a V-6 was unnecessary since the company could make an inline-four with as much power as a contemporary six. And while that last part was true, the company believed it was smarter than the market. This is a treacherous train of thought for any business. At the most elemental level, no company is smarter than its customers. It is the customer who knows what he will spend his money on, and American businesses spend billions annually to determine what motivates the consumer and what it takes to get him/her to shell out their dead presidents. (Fast forward to today, when many automakers are abandoning V-6s in their family sedans in favor of four-cylinder-only lineups, often using turbos to deliver six-cylinder power. The next Accord will offer a V-6.)
2) The Undisciplined Pursuit of More
During Stage 2, General Motors demonstrated conclusively that it was, in fact, impossible to turn an Oldsmobile gasoline-fueled V-8 into a viable diesel engine. Another example of the company’s total lack of discipline was the “Transatlantic-assembled” Cadillac Allanté, whose Pininfarina-built bodies were flown to Detroit from Italy to be mated with the chassis. When Honda was in the core of its Stage-2 thinking, the company pursued a partnership with BL Limited (later The Rover Group) to prop up the British manufacturer’s failing passenger-car business using Honda platforms. (Remember Sterlings?) Understanding the precarious position of its U.K. partner, Honda saw the arrangement as a way to potentially quick-start European production. It didn’t work out for Honda when BMW flew in and picked up Rover before the Japanese could act, and the company had to develop its European manufacturing base the old-fashioned way.
In the United States, the company experienced the ultimate excess of success when a couple dozen of its managers, some dealers, and some vendors were indicted in a bribery scandal involving preferential distribution of its hottest cars to retailers. The event shook the company’s North American operation to its foundation. Also during this stage, Honda acquired 100 percent of British American Racing to create its own Formula 1 program. We all know how well that turned out.
During Stage 2, General Motors demonstrated conclusively that it was, in fact, impossible to turn an Oldsmobile gasoline-fueled V-8 into a viable diesel engine. Another example of the company’s total lack of discipline was the “Transatlantic-assembled” Cadillac Allanté, whose Pininfarina-built bodies were flown to Detroit from Italy to be mated with the chassis. When Honda was in the core of its Stage-2 thinking, the company pursued a partnership with BL Limited (later The Rover Group) to prop up the British manufacturer’s failing passenger-car business using Honda platforms. (Remember Sterlings?) Understanding the precarious position of its U.K. partner, Honda saw the arrangement as a way to potentially quick-start European production. It didn’t work out for Honda when BMW flew in and picked up Rover before the Japanese could act, and the company had to develop its European manufacturing base the old-fashioned way.
In the United States, the company experienced the ultimate excess of success when a couple dozen of its managers, some dealers, and some vendors were indicted in a bribery scandal involving preferential distribution of its hottest cars to retailers. The event shook the company’s North American operation to its foundation. Also during this stage, Honda acquired 100 percent of British American Racing to create its own Formula 1 program. We all know how well that turned out.
Stage 3 was the toughest for General Motors to come to grips with, and that appears to be the case for Honda. Going back to January 1981, GM was at the top of its game. The company had launched the then-radical X-car platform (Chevrolet Citation, Buick Skylark, et al.) at all four volume divisions and sales were astronomical. The J-car (Chevrolet Cavalier, Cadillac Cimarron, Pontiac Sunbird, et al.) was in the pipeline for launch in April, and the company’s downsized large and mid-size cars were selling well. However, all of these cars were more cheaply made, had worse assembly quality, and, in some cases, were styling failures compared to the vehicles they replaced. They sold only on the strength of the nameplates attached to them, and it was inertial marketing at its best. But GM management didn’t see it that way. After all, sales were up and only coastal loons bought crappy Datsuns, Toyotas, and Hondas.
Discuss the shortfalls of some newer Honda products with that company’s management types and they’ll talk about how well the models are selling or how well they would be selling if only they could make enough of them. Historically, Honda was one of those automakers where generation-to-generation product improvement was both blatant and a given. Recently, that hasn’t been the case.
Discuss the shortfalls of some newer Honda products with that company’s management types and they’ll talk about how well the models are selling or how well they would be selling if only they could make enough of them. Historically, Honda was one of those automakers where generation-to-generation product improvement was both blatant and a given. Recently, that hasn’t been the case.
Grok the Crosstour. It’s not ugly. Really! Honda said so on its Facebook page. Facebook proclamations or not, there are some in the automotive design community that refer to the misshapen five-door as the “Medusian Ambassador.” Honda’s stubborn insistence on keeping the course for this vehicle can be seen in the latest Crosstour “concept,” which previews a second-gen production model that looks basically the same as the current one.
Other than the excellent Fit, recent succeeding versions of existing Honda models have tended to be fussier, cheaper, and generally less interesting than the cars they superseded. Nowhere is this better illustrated than with the Civic. Park a new one next to the last version and do a walk-around. Pretty much every aspect of the 2012 Civic is cheaper than its predecessor. Inside, the story is the same with materials cheapened and fits worse. If Honda “pulled a Jetta” with the Civic, it could be excused. While the current Jetta doesn’t compare well with its immediate predecessor, at least VW dropped the base sticker. With the new Civic’s MSRP, it’s as though Honda was saying, “If you’re stupid enough to pay this, we’ll take the money and run.” Harsh words, and we haven’t even gotten to Stage 4. (At least Honda has admitted some errors with the Civic, and is said to be rushing improvements into production. Whether this will substantively improve the car is yet to be seen.)
Other than the excellent Fit, recent succeeding versions of existing Honda models have tended to be fussier, cheaper, and generally less interesting than the cars they superseded. Nowhere is this better illustrated than with the Civic. Park a new one next to the last version and do a walk-around. Pretty much every aspect of the 2012 Civic is cheaper than its predecessor. Inside, the story is the same with materials cheapened and fits worse. If Honda “pulled a Jetta” with the Civic, it could be excused. While the current Jetta doesn’t compare well with its immediate predecessor, at least VW dropped the base sticker. With the new Civic’s MSRP, it’s as though Honda was saying, “If you’re stupid enough to pay this, we’ll take the money and run.” Harsh words, and we haven’t even gotten to Stage 4. (At least Honda has admitted some errors with the Civic, and is said to be rushing improvements into production. Whether this will substantively improve the car is yet to be seen.)
4) Grasping for Salvation
At this point in the process, General Motors made weird acquisitions in the belief that they would make the company more profitable. As it turned out, a lot of capital was spent on a myriad of companies, none of them essential to GM’s core business: Hughes Electronics, EDS, Saab. The list goes on.
Other than the Formula 1 team, Honda hasn’t gone on a drunken buying spree, but it has made investments as mind-bogglingly irrelevant as the General’s purchasing pandemonium. Do any of you really believe anthropomorphic robots are part and parcel of Honda’s future viability? And the less said about the HondaJet, the better. If you believe that ASIMO and the HA-420 are vital to the future of Honda Motor Company, you should think again. They are both just more noise in the system that further distracts Honda from its significant problems at hand.
At this point in the process, General Motors made weird acquisitions in the belief that they would make the company more profitable. As it turned out, a lot of capital was spent on a myriad of companies, none of them essential to GM’s core business: Hughes Electronics, EDS, Saab. The list goes on.
Other than the Formula 1 team, Honda hasn’t gone on a drunken buying spree, but it has made investments as mind-bogglingly irrelevant as the General’s purchasing pandemonium. Do any of you really believe anthropomorphic robots are part and parcel of Honda’s future viability? And the less said about the HondaJet, the better. If you believe that ASIMO and the HA-420 are vital to the future of Honda Motor Company, you should think again. They are both just more noise in the system that further distracts Honda from its significant problems at hand.
This is the stage when things get really messy and the downturn in core business steepens. When a new venture (the design and manufacture of air-interceptor missiles, development of a nascent human-style robot, or whatever) doesn’t provide the expected corporate uplift, the best minds are transferred from their actual fields of expertise to the new, high-profile operations. This further weakens a company’s core business and makes recovery even more difficult. Over the past decade, this has manifested itself at Honda within the planning department. Populated with individuals who have little real understanding of, sensitivity to, or connection with product, the department concocts customer abstracts so interchangeable business drones can comprehend the intent of a new vehicle. In the case of the first-generation RDX, this abstract was “Jason,” a young, upwardly mobile, urban-residing male that needed a turbocharged engine, “Super Handling All-Wheel Drive,” and room to transport all his lifestyle accouterments. Yeah, okay. As it turned out, there weren’t many “Jasons” buying the RDX. Planning got that part wrong—really wrong. The idea that product knowledge, sensitivity, and a comprehension of the new-vehicle market can be abstracted into the form of bullet-pointed nonexistent customers is, frankly, insane. The methodology is doubly destructive as it rewards the ability to devise synthetic buyers while purging real car or truck knowledge and insight from the planning function. The damage from this kind of product generation continues up through the organization by allowing management, with no more awareness of the market than a grapefruit, to make billion-dollar product decisions with minimal deleterious career consequences. At GM, this kind of planning gave us the 1997 Chevrolet Malibu. At Honda, it explains many of the new Civic’s shortcomings.
5) Capitulation to Irrelevance or Death
While General Motors never was able to pull out of its economic tailspin, Honda doesn’t have to experience Stage 5. In How the Mighty Fall, author Collins writes, “Decline can be avoided. Decline can be detected. Decline can be reversed.” But the company has to understand—no, believe—that its viability is on the line, and what might seem to be a minor issue could turn out to be a make-or-break turning point for its continued operation.
Honda’s problems ultimately aren’t engineering problems. They aren’t manufacturing problems or product problems, either. Those are just manifestations of the real issue. Honda’s problems are management problems. The past two decades have seen Honda devolve into an American car company headquartered in Minato, Tokyo, Japan. Drunk on North American profits, the company has performed horribly in the troubled Japanese domestic market, it has been unable to get any significant traction in Europe, and is a non-player in much of South America.
Let there be no doubt, Honda still is a viable business. But every new product that doesn’t match up to its predecessor siphons off a bit of the company’s strength. Each wrong move places the firm one step farther down the same path walked by GM from January 1981 until June 2009.
5) Capitulation to Irrelevance or Death
While General Motors never was able to pull out of its economic tailspin, Honda doesn’t have to experience Stage 5. In How the Mighty Fall, author Collins writes, “Decline can be avoided. Decline can be detected. Decline can be reversed.” But the company has to understand—no, believe—that its viability is on the line, and what might seem to be a minor issue could turn out to be a make-or-break turning point for its continued operation.
Honda’s problems ultimately aren’t engineering problems. They aren’t manufacturing problems or product problems, either. Those are just manifestations of the real issue. Honda’s problems are management problems. The past two decades have seen Honda devolve into an American car company headquartered in Minato, Tokyo, Japan. Drunk on North American profits, the company has performed horribly in the troubled Japanese domestic market, it has been unable to get any significant traction in Europe, and is a non-player in much of South America.
Let there be no doubt, Honda still is a viable business. But every new product that doesn’t match up to its predecessor siphons off a bit of the company’s strength. Each wrong move places the firm one step farther down the same path walked by GM from January 1981 until June 2009.
#2
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i have no doubt that honda is well aware of its problems. it's also a lot smaller than nissan (part of renault) and of course toyota. i would not be surprised to see honda bought (or sort of merged) in the next few years.
honda has made a huge series of gaffes but once the train is off the tracks, it's hard to get back on the track.
perhaps the tsunami/earthquake hastened the make or break for the company - perhaps a good thing.
but they're far from dead, and who knows, they may create/launch one or more unique innovations to really get their mojo back again.
honda has made a huge series of gaffes but once the train is off the tracks, it's hard to get back on the track.
perhaps the tsunami/earthquake hastened the make or break for the company - perhaps a good thing.
but they're far from dead, and who knows, they may create/launch one or more unique innovations to really get their mojo back again.
#4
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
so it's not all doom and gloom. but they will need to dump the losers and try more 'different' things, as well as get a new accord out that impresses.
#5
i disagree. honda has always been a contrarian company, from cvcc civics to motorcycles, lawnmowers, generators, crz's, preludes, and on and on. more recently, there has been the ridgeline (unconventional to be sure), the element (think that was well before a scion xB), the Pilot. still trying to be unconventional, recent attempts have been viewed as just weird or awful, like crosstour, and acura's beak. so it's a challenging thing to be 'different' without turning people off. the new crz hasn't been strongly received, but the fit has been a smash hit. the turbo rdx wasn't a huge hit, but it looks like the revised one with v6 is a hit. the crv is another standout - success upon success.
so it's not all doom and gloom. but they will need to dump the losers and try more 'different' things, as well as get a new accord out that impresses.
so it's not all doom and gloom. but they will need to dump the losers and try more 'different' things, as well as get a new accord out that impresses.
1) Scrap the crz/insight/crosstour immediately. Those have been straight up BUSTS. That's the main problem. Go back to the drawing board on the crz.
2) Hit a HR with the Accord. Let's see what Honda comes out with in the fall.
3) Design an innovative car like they did with the prelude or s2000, just to bring some excitement back to the Honda brand. In the 90s and early 00s, every "cool" high school kid drove either a honda or acura.
4) Redo acura's basic design. The beak is just hideous. Get a real flagship car, not one that is just simply 300hp.
But Honda has quite a few things going for it. Civic is tops in its segment desptie bad reviews. The refresh is going out in the fall. That's going to increase the sales. CRV is an absolute monster, easily the best in its class. Pilot/Odyssee showing gains this year.
#6
Lexus Test Driver
All honda has to do is make the next NSX... a real one with a v10 in it that can go heads up with the LFA. Be as well thought out as the LFA was on debut. That would spark interest at least for me.
#7
Lexus Champion
That appeals to enthusiasts, but not the masses. 90% of people would see the NSX and not even know it's an Acura, and, even if they did know, they wouldn't care. Especially on the Honda side, the NSX would have no impact at all.
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#8
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
I usually buy Toyota and/or Honda vehicles.
Present Honda vehicles are a '08 Civic (101K miles) and '11 CR-V.Both great vehicles and would buy another in a heartbeat.I like Honda.
I would have bought a RDX instead of the CR-V but didn't like the turbo,bad MPGs and premium fuel recommendation.Would have bought the RDX V6.
Present Honda vehicles are a '08 Civic (101K miles) and '11 CR-V.Both great vehicles and would buy another in a heartbeat.I like Honda.
I would have bought a RDX instead of the CR-V but didn't like the turbo,bad MPGs and premium fuel recommendation.Would have bought the RDX V6.
#9
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
not dissing the lfa - it's SPECTACULAR. but for $375k it had better be.
hopefully honda will redo the nsx in a honda way... an overall package of lightness, efficiency, elegance, and wonderful driving experience.
doing 'me too' will not help them.
#10
Lexus Champion
I usually buy Toyota and/or Honda vehicles.
Present Honda vehicles are a '08 Civic (101K miles) and '11 CR-V.Both great vehicles and would buy another in a heartbeat.I like Honda.
I would have bought a RDX instead of the CR-V but didn't like the turbo,bad MPGs and premium fuel recommendation.Would have bought the RDX V6.
Present Honda vehicles are a '08 Civic (101K miles) and '11 CR-V.Both great vehicles and would buy another in a heartbeat.I like Honda.
I would have bought a RDX instead of the CR-V but didn't like the turbo,bad MPGs and premium fuel recommendation.Would have bought the RDX V6.
I nearly bought a previous gen Civic EX sedan a little over a year ago. Nice little car and by all acounts better than the new one.
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
The article mentions two things that are hurting Honda which are on point.
1. Their stubbornness and refusal things are bad or need improving.
2. Loyal or uneducated consumers buying the product thus fooling Honda into being average.
The Civic is mentioned and even though it was blasted from day one for being a turd and even Honda admitted they are quickly trying to fix it, once Honda increased incentives the Civic is selling like hotcakes. Going to be hard to convince Honda to "improve" if people are happy with average/sub-par. The new RDX also is quite average/sub-par but selling like hotcakes which means Honda will continue to shoot for average since it sells to people. No different than maybe the Camry which isn't some incredible class leader.
They also make the example of the Crosstour which was panned for being ugly and terrible from day one yet Honda just stayed adamant that it was good looking and would be a hit. It has never met sales goals, has been terrible for image and they continue to sell it. Contrarily look at how fast Lexus canned the HS. They didn't try to prolong disaster and make excuses for it. They got rid of it quickly.
The thing is it's too late and Honda will never be the way it was. The 1990s/early 2000s will never be repeated. Today everyone has gotten much better and far more interesting. RWD is no longer hard to find nor fun cars. The used market for cars has never been better. I don't think Honda will ever be financially in trouble, they are too well run for that to happen but if loyal fans haven't seen in the last few years all the talk and no walking and haven't moved on, their faces must be completely blue holding their breathes for "change".
1. Their stubbornness and refusal things are bad or need improving.
2. Loyal or uneducated consumers buying the product thus fooling Honda into being average.
The Civic is mentioned and even though it was blasted from day one for being a turd and even Honda admitted they are quickly trying to fix it, once Honda increased incentives the Civic is selling like hotcakes. Going to be hard to convince Honda to "improve" if people are happy with average/sub-par. The new RDX also is quite average/sub-par but selling like hotcakes which means Honda will continue to shoot for average since it sells to people. No different than maybe the Camry which isn't some incredible class leader.
They also make the example of the Crosstour which was panned for being ugly and terrible from day one yet Honda just stayed adamant that it was good looking and would be a hit. It has never met sales goals, has been terrible for image and they continue to sell it. Contrarily look at how fast Lexus canned the HS. They didn't try to prolong disaster and make excuses for it. They got rid of it quickly.
The thing is it's too late and Honda will never be the way it was. The 1990s/early 2000s will never be repeated. Today everyone has gotten much better and far more interesting. RWD is no longer hard to find nor fun cars. The used market for cars has never been better. I don't think Honda will ever be financially in trouble, they are too well run for that to happen but if loyal fans haven't seen in the last few years all the talk and no walking and haven't moved on, their faces must be completely blue holding their breathes for "change".
#12
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
The article mentions two things that are hurting Honda which are on point.
1. Their stubbornness and refusal things are bad or need improving.
2. Loyal or uneducated consumers buying the product thus fooling Honda into being average.
The Civic is mentioned and even though it was blasted from day one for being a turd and even Honda admitted they are quickly trying to fix it, once Honda increased incentives the Civic is selling like hotcakes. Going to be hard to convince Honda to "improve" if people are happy with average/sub-par. The new RDX also is quite average/sub-par but selling like hotcakes which means Honda will continue to shoot for average since it sells to people. No different than maybe the Camry which isn't some incredible class leader.
They also make the example of the Crosstour which was panned for being ugly and terrible from day one yet Honda just stayed adamant that it was good looking and would be a hit. It has never met sales goals, has been terrible for image and they continue to sell it. Contrarily look at how fast Lexus canned the HS. They didn't try to prolong disaster and make excuses for it. They got rid of it quickly.
The thing is it's too late and Honda will never be the way it was. The 1990s/early 2000s will never be repeated. Today everyone has gotten much better and far more interesting. RWD is no longer hard to find nor fun cars. The used market for cars has never been better. I don't think Honda will ever be financially in trouble, they are too well run for that to happen but if loyal fans haven't seen in the last few years all the talk and no walking and haven't moved on, their faces must be completely blue holding their breathes for "change".
1. Their stubbornness and refusal things are bad or need improving.
2. Loyal or uneducated consumers buying the product thus fooling Honda into being average.
The Civic is mentioned and even though it was blasted from day one for being a turd and even Honda admitted they are quickly trying to fix it, once Honda increased incentives the Civic is selling like hotcakes. Going to be hard to convince Honda to "improve" if people are happy with average/sub-par. The new RDX also is quite average/sub-par but selling like hotcakes which means Honda will continue to shoot for average since it sells to people. No different than maybe the Camry which isn't some incredible class leader.
They also make the example of the Crosstour which was panned for being ugly and terrible from day one yet Honda just stayed adamant that it was good looking and would be a hit. It has never met sales goals, has been terrible for image and they continue to sell it. Contrarily look at how fast Lexus canned the HS. They didn't try to prolong disaster and make excuses for it. They got rid of it quickly.
The thing is it's too late and Honda will never be the way it was. The 1990s/early 2000s will never be repeated. Today everyone has gotten much better and far more interesting. RWD is no longer hard to find nor fun cars. The used market for cars has never been better. I don't think Honda will ever be financially in trouble, they are too well run for that to happen but if loyal fans haven't seen in the last few years all the talk and no walking and haven't moved on, their faces must be completely blue holding their breathes for "change".
Just average?
Well,until I get burnt,I'll buy a Honda product.
The Civic has 101k miles and has been bulletproof.Just routine maintenance.My son uses it and he's far from easy on a vehicle.
Had Accords in the past and they were great cars.
The only thing I have against Honda/Acura is the line has more road noise and a rougher ride to go along with the better handling than Toyota/Lexus vehicles smoother,quieter ride but less handling.
I prefer the smooth and quiet ride in sedans and large SUVs and am happy to give up some handling.
#13
Lexus Champion
Uneducated ?
Just average?
Well,until I get burnt,I'll buy a Honda product.
The Civic has 101k miles and has been bulletproof.Just routine maintenance.My son uses it and he's far from easy on a vehicle.
Had Accords in the past and they were great cars.
The only thing I have against Honda/Acura is the line has more road noise and a rougher ride to go along with the better handling than Toyota/Lexus vehicles smoother,quieter ride but less handling.
I prefer the smooth and quiet ride in sedans and large SUVs and am happy to give up some handling.
Just average?
Well,until I get burnt,I'll buy a Honda product.
The Civic has 101k miles and has been bulletproof.Just routine maintenance.My son uses it and he's far from easy on a vehicle.
Had Accords in the past and they were great cars.
The only thing I have against Honda/Acura is the line has more road noise and a rougher ride to go along with the better handling than Toyota/Lexus vehicles smoother,quieter ride but less handling.
I prefer the smooth and quiet ride in sedans and large SUVs and am happy to give up some handling.
You have to remember that most people are on CL because of their knowledge and higher level interest in cars; but most people (Honda's target customer) don't really care about all that.
#14
Lexus Test Driver
that's not the honda way. the original nsx has only a V6. it was stunning because of its mostly aluminum construction, it's nature of being an exotic that could truly be a daily driver too, and of course its great driving nature without being a brute like a lambo for example. and of course it was 'cheap' for what it was.
not dissing the lfa - it's SPECTACULAR. but for $375k it had better be.
hopefully honda will redo the nsx in a honda way... an overall package of lightness, efficiency, elegance, and wonderful driving experience.
doing 'me too' will not help them.
not dissing the lfa - it's SPECTACULAR. but for $375k it had better be.
hopefully honda will redo the nsx in a honda way... an overall package of lightness, efficiency, elegance, and wonderful driving experience.
doing 'me too' will not help them.
That could work on second thought, thats stiffer competition than the LFA.
#15
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
This is exactly why Honda is not in "trouble". Honda's bread and butter customer doesn't care about style,innovation or cutting edge (not that Joeb doesn't care--just his reply was the perfect set up). They want a reliable, solid car that meets their need for good family transportation. My mom is on her 4th CR-V, and was all set to trade in an '07 with 35,000 miles and an '09 with 22,000 miles to get a brand new one (she decided to wait 2 years). She didn't care that it still has a 5 speed transmission, essentially the same engine, no direct injection, etc, etc. According to her, it gets better gas mileage and now has halogen headlights (she refused to believe me that her '09 has halogen headlights--she thinks it means HID). She doesn't see that there's very little difference between her '09 and a brand new '12--other than a new body style and maybe a different color selection.
You have to remember that most people are on CL because of their knowledge and higher level interest in cars; but most people (Honda's target customer) don't really care about all that.
You have to remember that most people are on CL because of their knowledge and higher level interest in cars; but most people (Honda's target customer) don't really care about all that.
Look at how the '12 Civic sold so well with a badly rated boring refresh.
Yes,I know of the incentives but it a still sold in high numbers because of it's reliability.
I prefer the smooth and quiet ride that an Acura does have,IMO.Not pleased with the designs either.Though,I like the RDX/MDX design
With the new ES350 having better handling,I know it will be quiet but I hope the ES doesn't lose that smooth ride.That was the main reason I bought an ES350.Can't see how the new ES with better handling will ride as smooth as the present ES.Just can't have both.
I had a '11 Camry hybrid that was rear ended which had a great smooth ride and quiet.I went with a friend looking for a car and test drove the '13 Camry hybrid for the heck of it as I hate the new design and found the ride quality to be harsher and more road noise which was disappointing.