Carmaker1

It is beyond unnerving how this site will casually log someone out of their account and lose what they spent effort in typing correctly, upon submission. (Deja vu) Back to what I tried to state nearly an hour ago (before tossing my tablet across the room), though not as clear anymore:

Thanks! They've essentially covered the product planning phase, so them needing another 2+ years to barely approve the new body, then spend 3 more years is quite silly to me. Should've been making such plans from early 2012, but they slowed down for a reason I figure. I find it absurd why anyone believes that a concept to production model should take up to 6-7 years, if no underlying reason behind. This is not an LFA II.

Yes, that is very much the case here and quite understandable. The power train development is what is holding things back a bit. I figured that they take a long time on power train development.


I agree, but wonder why a trademark hasn't been filed yet. Maybe it was similar to how Lexus created chopped IS mules in early 2006 for the IS C, which differed from the final product.

How is 4-5 years normal? From the ground up with zero ideas or with existing ideas/production feasible design studies? Concept show cars do not spend more than 6-10 months on average in development. The LF-LC and FT-1 are rarities at 18 months. The former was very telling of a realistic vehicle, with only minor changes needed. The design work spent of the LF-LC, eliminates a needed 18-24 months on the SC project in that area. That will be a total of 72-90 months since inception in May 2010.

The 2006 Camaro Concept entered development in February 2005 and ended development in November. By mid-2007, the production design was frozen and scheduled for February 2009 assembly start-up, later being pushed back to March '09. That's 19-21 months from design sign-off to SOP and incomparable to the SC (to be fair). A total of 48-49 months from concept project start to SOP and 38 months from initial showing.

The 2006 Dodge Challenger Concept was approved in production form that same year and began production in April 2008. The concept project began in early 2004, defined Feb-June 2005, and ended in November 2005. From ideation to production as a concept car in January 2004, to production was 4 years and 3 months. Just 27 months from '06 debut to production start up.

The C7 Corvette interior was approved in June 2010, finalised by the end of 2010. The exterior approved in mid-2010, finalised by January 2011. That delayed due to bankruptcy previously.

Most of them have managed to go from start of their concept development to production within 4 years. The Lexus SC would have required 6-7.5 years, judging by 2017 claims. If time has been wasted on not transforming the show car into a frozen production design within 12-18 months of debut, then clearly it does not help get it closer to launch, if engineers end up chasing moving targets and delaying critical stages (2013 approval = 2015-16 launch vs 2014 approval = 2016-17 launch).

Correct, as the C7 was delayed and had begun development in 2007. Reached production development stage in January 2011 and basic production proposal in mid-2010. The new SUVs were also approved in early 2011 and some Escalade 1:1 proposals exist from late 2010. GM is all over the place on that really.

Not entirely true regarding the S2000. The SSM concept was unveiled in October 1995. Within several months, the S2000 AP1 was frozen for production in 1996. Nearly 3 years ahead of April 1999 production. That was one of the earliest design freezes/longest production development phases at Honda then. Between the SSM debut and the S2000, a total of 42 months (over 3 years) and looking at the LF-LC, it will reach 42 months by July 2015. Not comparable.

As for Toyota, it's not as if they were immediately starting this directly from scratch like the GT86/FRS/BRZ (2007-2011/12) with zero ideas. Between the next generation LS (likely since 2008-10) and especially the LF-LC (since May 2010), they've had some ground to build on regarding planning and direction (1-2 years).

The 5-years figure, applies to something that 100% just started. Not a previously semi-existing project. At that rate, the FT-1 would go into production in 2019.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

not a problem of the forum from what i see. i never get logged out with any of the browsers and/or computers i use. maybe try clearing all the cookies and cache and see if that helps?

LexFather

Egads the FRS concept took what 4-5 years to be built. Do you expect a super Lexus to take 2-3 years? I believe the LF-CC to RC took 2-3 years but that car is based on an existing platform. The LF LC is COMPLETELY NEW from the ground up, of course it will take longer to produce.

We are also completely forgetting what stages of the concept is the car? For example the LF-LC was barely running when it debuted, I believe on electric power only. It was a concept, not ready for production. Contrast this with some other "concepts" where it shows a production ready car with basically some small changes. Well of course it will debut faster.

Honestly not sure why I'm being argued with, I think for the most part I've been accurate with what I've been able to share. I talked about the GS F years ago and instead of being built up and appreciated, the thread turned into garbage. I told many tidbits of the LF-LC for sometime which are now coming around. etc etc

People here are stating Lexus needs to step everything up, then also saying they want the car sold in 2 years. That is NOT going to happen. We all know Lexus as well is a slow company to make decisions, even with less layers of management today. Don't set up the false hope of a car coming quick from a company that takes its time as it is part of their ethos.

I think the next thread I start will hopefully lay to rest any doubters who question my posts.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Shaping up to be a 2017 SC likely in 2016, 3.5L V6 Hybrid system, 5.0 NA V8, and likely the rumored TTV8 mill for the SC F model and future F models.

Carmaker1

Sounds like good, accurate news. I will just take everything with a grain of salt from these magazines, as tomorrow they will say 2018-19 and then Lexus will announce or show something that points towards 2-3x earlier than that.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Still speculative but isn't too farfetch'd based on the current limited information

Vh_Supra26

iTrader: (1)

Wow you like type don't you

Yup, it could just end up being called the GS something something. Kinda like how BMW calls the 4 door 6 Series the Gran Coupe and not use a new nameplate. Unless that weird test mule was actually for LS5?

Speaking of the 6 Series. I think the E63 took awhile to make production. From 1999 to 2003?

I just rather Toyota take a little extra time with FT-1 and LF-LC and do it right. Make it worth the wait

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

If the latest Lexus offerings are any indication, they should be stellar (4GS, CT, 3IS, 4.5LS..)

mordecai

True, it's a new Lexus. I'm particularly looking forward to the new LS. I can't wait to see what Lexus brings to the table. Anyone else think it might usher in a v 2.0 of the spindle grille-era L-Finesse? Kind of like how the GS brought v1.0 and rightly looks somewhat outdated compared to more recent Lexus offerings.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Absolutely I believe it'll take from the IS, GX, NX and RC as they are the newest spindles

TF109B

The next LS and future LC(SC) may take from the tmg model. The story goes tmg had a hand in new Lexus models, so hopefully the rumors of this twin turbo v8 comes from knowledge that tmg did on that LS. That would be great even if less extreme.

Carmaker1

The L10-based test mule nearly gave me a happy heart attack when I first saw it 6 months ago, as I almost assumed it was the 5LS/XF50. Quickly realized the possibility of 4-dr coupe, which seemed outlandish by Lexus standards. An ex-CL member argued with me about it at length elsewhere, claiming that it was the next LS due to a modular platform and how I was greatly "uninformed". Still don't believe that is the LS, but a new model addition or variant to an existing line.

We know that MB is testing the next MRA-based E-Class (W213) in stretched W205 C-Class mules. Also, maybe that BMW-similar naming scheme (GS...) will suffice vs MB's independent CLS vs E-Class. No need to file a Lexus GC or FC trademark, yet be 4 doors.

Yes, the E63/4 actually did get developed between late 1999 and mid-2003. BMW got started on the Z9 GT concept in early 1999 after finishing the E65 and had it ready by July 1999. In early development of E60 5-Series, BMW commissioned the E63 coupe, parallel to the Z9 concept's debut, to share the same chassis (just like LS to SC). They thankfully documented part of the development process, particularly between 2000 and 2003 in this Discovery documentary.

Especially between 2000 and February 2001, when Adrian van Hooydonk (now head of all BMW Group design) was shown transforming the Z9 into the E63 and the period when the first prototypes were built in the second half of 2001. Sounds like you've watched it already? Part 1 of it:


That is my thing right there, regarding chassis sharing. BMW started developing the E60 5-Series in late 1997/early 1998. In late 1999, they approved development of a new 6-Series after the E31 8-Series coupe had just ended production. That autumn, as said above, the Z9 concept had appeared based on the secret, yet finished E65 7-Series design. It took roughly 4.5 years from Z9 project start to assembly line. Both cars (E60 and E63) arrived in 2003.

Looking at this, the main culprit for the SC taking longer to production is the next LS chassis and new engines. If that wasn't a problem and used the L10 chassis like the RC, it would arrive sooner and maybe not be as satisfactory. Both cars will arrive in 2016 and hopefully nothing uncontrollable derails them again.

I do wish Lexus would do something like both BMW and Nissan did respectively for the 6-Series and GT-R, such as documenting the creation of their flagship models. Why not create a Lexus documentary of 5LS and 3SC development while they can, then reenacting or staging earlier un-filmed aspects?

I'm thinking of applying some of my design skills towards providing my own vision of a future LS. A vehicle that no one has rendered or speculated on visually. I've been hesitant though due to conflict of interest (employment-wise), and also that there's nothing to really go on, because the LS might indeed introduce a new stage of spindle. Who knows if the SC also has been evolved a bit to match it against the current design language and to appear much fresher than its 4-year old concept.

That will take me at least a month to complete via sketching and in AutoCAD without any errors.

Vh_Supra26

iTrader: (1)

I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Oh yes, I watched that when it first came out. I'm a huge fan of the E63. I'm hoping to pick one up soon. I just can't find the right one yet. A lot of them have tons of miles. And I'm not a fan of the E64 so that cuts the field down in half.

Agreed, the reason why the LF-LC could be taking so log is because we haven't even seen LS5 yet. Someone on another forum also adds that Toyota/Lexus usually builds at least 2-3 concepts before finalizing the design, so that takes time and slows down R&D.

Maybe they will. We kinda got a look behind the scenes of the LFA.

Carmaker1

One only hopes they will do that, as both of us clearly like carefully studying such aspects. You are very on point regarding "concepts". Concept 1 may not be in 1:1 scale, but mainly for design competition reasons at maybe 1:3 or 1:4. Concept 2 is likely a 1:1 scale clay interpretation of the designer's and design management's vision. Concept 3 is the production model in full-scale clay/fiberglass with engineering and supplier input, where Toyota will likely freeze it. I think all brands follow that thankfully, as those who do not and cheat via only utilizing virtual design, suffer in the end.

I've always liked the E63 M6 more than anything and a few friends/relatives own either that or a 645Ci/650i. My mother owns an '09 650iA E64 cabrio and refuses to replace it with the newer F13. That has shockingly been more reliable than the 4 E66/F02 7ers she's had the past decade, with the E38 (sold in early 2006) being her most trouble-free BMW ever.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Would love to see that render. You're very knowledgeable and your replies informative

Rumor has it the SC will have a similar but updated fascia from the LF-LC which was not fully immersed with Spindle design language