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TMG Lexus LS (650hp) spied at the Ring

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Old 09-21-11, 01:21 PM   #91
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it is not an hybrid for sure... either turbo or S/C. Both TRD and TTE preffered S/C in past but imho, they usually went conservative for 20% extra hp.

Hybrids can not recover enough energy to power 100hp electric motors... currently they do around 50hp of battery output. Problem is not in batteries but ability to recharge them constantly in order to use that extra power.
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Old 09-21-11, 01:25 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by rominl View Post
that will be one very powerful hybrid. 5L on isf is pushing 415hp. of course this one with whopping 9k rpm will likely push more. but to reach over 600hp, that means the hybrid will still need to push well over 100hp
The ISF motor redline at 6.8k rpm, 2k rpm makes quite a bit more power. Just compare the 9k rpm S2k motor to a Civic Si motor. I also think the current ISF motor is detuned.

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Originally Posted by rominl View Post
another thing to look at is the weight. it says 2070kg, which is about 4550lb. that's much lighter than ls600hl. heavier than rwd ls460 but lighter than awd version. of course it's probably gutted out, but the weight is really good for its size.
TMG LS is SWB with 4554 lbs. A SWB RWD LS460 is 4244 lbs. 310 lbs difference.

LS600hL AWD is 5203 lbs, LS460L AWD is 4696 lbs. 507 lbs difference.

TMG LS is gutted with a lot of carbon fiber body panels, subtract 200 lbs, there you go
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Old 09-21-11, 01:39 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
There is no single method to list peak torque when hybrids are the vehicle tested b/c the torque is instantanous and needs to be measured differently than from the petrol engine. We can't just add say 250 lbs torque from the engine to 300lbs torque from the battery
Yes correct, I agreed. The peak torque from the electric motor and gas motor occur at different rpm with different torque curve, so it is very difficult to calculate a total system torque output.

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Good analysis.
Thank you

See I am not a pure Lexus hater, when they show something kick *** like this TMG LS, I love it.

I tell it like it is

Please Lexus, build this TMG LS exactly the way it is with the exact spec and wide fender flares, I would buy one. As long as it doesn't cost anymore then $150k I am poor

I would love the LFA if it is $150k

That would make the perfect reliable 2 cars garage: LFA roadster and TMG LS!

Last edited by BNR34; 09-21-11 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 09-21-11, 01:46 PM   #94
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295's in the front. That wider than a 599GTO or even a ZR1!!!!!!!!!!!!! Insanity. God I hope they produce this thing, but how did it get this far and we never heard of it. We all knew the LFA was in the pipeline for years
actually most of the time lexus is very secretive and quiet about all their projects and prototypes

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Originally Posted by BNR34 View Post
We can do an educated spectulation here:

LS TMG: 5.0L, 9k rpm redline, 640 hp, 524 lb-ft.

458: NA 4.5L V8, 9k rpm redline, 570 hp, 398 lbs-ft

LFA: NA 4.8L V10, 9k rpm redline, 552 hp, 354 lbs-ft

MP4-12C: Twin Turbo 3.8L V8, 8.5k rpm redline, 592 hp, 443 lbs-ft

F10 M5: Twin Turbo 4.4L V8, 7.2k rpm redline, 560 hp, 501 lbs-ft

Let's look at 2 cars with similar output:

Murciélago LP 640: NA 6.5L V12, 8k rpm redline, 641 hp, 487 lbs-ft (no direct injection)

Ferrari FF: NA 6.3L V12, 8k rpm redline, 651 hp, 504 lbs-ft

The contradiction here is, for a 5.0L street motor, only NA rev that high to 9k rpm, but NA high revving motor have weak torque. Even the much bigger displacement LP640 and FF that make the same HP don't make as much torque as the TMG LS. And torque is generated by displacement, boost or electric assist. Without boost or electric assist, there is no way a NA 5.0L can make 524 lbs-ft. All above cars I listed have direct injection except the LP640. I would assumed the TMG LS have direct injection. Direct injection generally increase hp and torque by 10%.

The high torque output of the TMG LS suggest it is not purely NA.

Even the really high revving MP4-12C twin turbo motor with a flat plane crank only rev to 8.5k rpm.

My guess for the TMG LS is a high revving NA motor with electric assist to get the high torque output.

I looked up the specs for the LS600 and GS450, funny they don't list a total system torque output.
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The ISF motor redline at 6.8k rpm, 2k rpm makes quite a bit more power. Just compare the 9k rpm S2k motor to a Civic Si motor. I also think the current ISF motor is detuned.

TMG LS is SWB with 4554 lbs. A SWB RWD LS460 is 4244 lbs. 310 lbs difference.

LS600hL AWD is 5203 lbs, LS460L AWD is 4696 lbs. 507 lbs difference.

TMG LS is gutted with a lot of carbon fiber body panels, subtract 200 lbs, there you go
awesome stuff jeff. that's pretty much what i thought as well. for the motor to generate that kind of hp it's not impossible, especially with that high rev. however the tq value doesn't make sense for any NA engine with that kind of rev. and similar for FI, it's not easy at all for any FI setup to have that kind of rev up, the compression and everything makes it super super hard to do. but no matter what though, huge props to toyota and lexus for doing all these (yeah, some people think i don't give toyota credit without reading enough)
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Old 09-21-11, 01:46 PM   #95
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Yes correct, I agreed. The peak torque from the electric motor and gas motor occur at different rpm with different torque curve, so it is very difficult to calculate a total system torque output.



Thank you

See I am not a pure Lexus hater, when they show something kick *** like this TMG LS, I love it.

I tell it like it is

Please Lexus, build this TMG LS exactly the way it is with the exact spec and wide fender flares, I would buy one. As long as it doesn't cost anymore then $150k I am poor

I would love the LFA if it is $150k

That would make the perfect reliable 2 cars garage: LFA roadster and TMG LS!
and you will be living in the 2 cars?
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Old 09-21-11, 01:50 PM   #96
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Wasn't it mentioned before that this is V8 Twin Turbo? I am sure someone left the post couple months back or even more they just finished working on V8TT.
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Originally Posted by spwolf View Post
it is not an hybrid for sure... either turbo or S/C. Both TRD and TTE preffered S/C in past but imho, they usually went conservative for 20% extra hp.
TT or S/C don't rev to 9k. Even the flat plane crank, dry sump MP4-12C only rev to 8.5k and it still got weak torque.

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Originally Posted by spwolf View Post
Hybrids can not recover enough energy to power 100hp electric motors... currently they do around 50hp of battery output. Problem is not in batteries but ability to recharge them constantly in order to use that extra power.
Current LS600 / GS450 are 1st generation, this is only the beginning, like the model T. The TMG car is next or next next generation...........there is huge potential for electric power technologies in the future.
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Old 09-21-11, 01:58 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by rominl View Post
awesome stuff jeff. that's pretty much what i thought as well. for the motor to generate that kind of hp it's not impossible, especially with that high rev.
The 458 already make that amount of specific output at 9k rpm:

570hp / 4.5L = 127 hp / L

5.0L x 127 hp / L = 635 hp.

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Originally Posted by rominl View Post
however the tq value doesn't make sense for any NA engine with that kind of rev. and similar for FI, it's not easy at all for any FI setup to have that kind of rev up, the compression and everything makes it super super hard to do. but no matter what though, huge props to toyota and lexus for doing all these (yeah, some people think i don't give toyota credit without reading enough)
Agreed 100%
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Old 09-21-11, 02:03 PM   #98
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and you will be living in the 2 cars?
Yes sir

The back seat of the LS is big enough as my bed, and I would have a cardboard box with a lawn chair as my living room outside the car. I will live outside of a Walmart so I can be a panhandler in the evening while I watch TV in the back seat of the LS from the drop down TV. I also plan to hit up strangers at the gas station for gas money: "hey man, can you spare me a couple of bucks for gas? My ride only get 9 MPG and it hurt!"

See, it is all planned out, it could work

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Old 09-21-11, 02:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BNR34 View Post
TT or S/C don't rev to 9k. Even the flat plane crank, dry sump MP4-12C only rev to 8.5k and it still got weak torque.



Current LS600 / GS450 are 1st generation, this is only the beginning, like the model T. The TMG car is next or next next generation...........there is huge potential for electric power technologies in the future.
there is simply no way to recover energy like that, there is no such technology on the market. hey i would love for it to happen, but it isnt.
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Old 09-21-11, 02:32 PM   #100
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there is simply no way to recover energy like that, there is no such technology on the market. hey i would love for it to happen, but it isnt.
Is the TMG LS on the market right now?

None of us could even dream of performance hybrid like the LS600 or GS450 10 years ago, who knows what we'll have 5~10 years from now?
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Old 09-21-11, 02:34 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BNR34 View Post
We can do an educated spectulation here:

LS TMG: 5.0L, 9k rpm redline, 640 hp, 524 lb-ft.

458: NA 4.5L V8, 9k rpm redline, 570 hp, 398 lbs-ft

LFA: NA 4.8L V10, 9k rpm redline, 552 hp, 354 lbs-ft

MP4-12C: Twin Turbo 3.8L V8, 8.5k rpm redline, 592 hp, 443 lbs-ft

F10 M5: Twin Turbo 4.4L V8, 7.2k rpm redline, 560 hp, 501 lbs-ft

Let's look at 2 cars with similar output:

Murciélago LP 640: NA 6.5L V12, 8k rpm redline, 641 hp, 487 lbs-ft (no direct injection)

Ferrari FF: NA 6.3L V12, 8k rpm redline, 651 hp, 504 lbs-ft

The contradiction here is, for a 5.0L street motor, only NA rev that high to 9k rpm, but NA high revving motor have weak torque. Even the much bigger displacement LP640 and FF that make the same HP don't make as much torque as the TMG LS. And torque is generated by displacement, boost or electric assist. Without boost or electric assist, there is no way a NA 5.0L can make 524 lbs-ft. All above cars I listed have direct injection except the LP640. I would assumed the TMG LS have direct injection. Direct injection generally increase hp and torque by 10%.

The high torque output of the TMG LS suggest it is not purely NA.

Even the really high revving MP4-12C twin turbo motor with a flat plane crank only rev to 8.5k rpm.

My guess for the TMG LS is a high revving NA motor with electric assist to get the high torque output.

I looked up the specs for the LS600 and GS450, funny they don't list a total system torque output.
another way to look at this, looking at the spec, it seems like toyota has discovered something new and a solution to a long time problem. lower rev but more tq vs higher rev but less tq.

just imagine high low end tq for daily driving to make it even more manageable (and quieter), but when needed, push it hard and it keeps on revving and then the screaming engine tone. now that's so sick
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Old 09-21-11, 02:38 PM   #102
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Is the TMG LS on the market right now?

None of us could even dream of performance hybrid like the LS600 or GS450 10 years ago, who knows what we'll have 5~10 years from now?
well, it also might be powered by clean nuclear power...


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Old 09-21-11, 03:34 PM   #103
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another way to look at this, looking at the spec, it seems like toyota has discovered something new and a solution to a long time problem. lower rev but more tq vs higher rev but less tq.

just imagine high low end tq for daily driving to make it even more manageable (and quieter), but when needed, push it hard and it keeps on revving and then the screaming engine tone. now that's so sick
You might be on to something with that thought process, if Toyota did find that solution then WOOOOW!!
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Old 09-21-11, 03:36 PM   #104
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another way to look at this, looking at the spec, it seems like toyota has discovered something new and a solution to a long time problem. lower rev but more tq vs higher rev but less tq.
Yes, is call the hybrid synergy drive.

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just imagine high low end tq for daily driving to make it even more manageable (and quieter), but when needed, push it hard and it keeps on revving and then the screaming engine tone. now that's so sick
That's the beauty of electric / gas hybrid. EV mode for instant torque from zero rpm, then the high revving gas motor kick in for the screaming high end power.

AKA 918 Spyder

918 Spyder --> "Porsche is laying its cards on the table with this dual-purpose supercar plug-in hybrid. Said to “combine high-tech racing features with electric mobility to offer a fascinating range of qualities,” the 918 Spyder concept borrows the mid-mounted 3.4-liter V-8 engine from the RS Spyder race car, singing a symphony of 500 hp up to a 9200-rpm redline. That covers the race portion of the equation, while electric motors found at both the front and rear axles that combine for an output of 218 hp handle the electric mobility. These motors, able to move the car on electric power alone, make the 918 a full hybrid, which Porsche claims has a range of 16 miles using the liquid-cooled lithium-ion battery found behind the passenger compartment. Porsche claims the concept is capable of hitting 62 mph in under 3.2 seconds, topping out at 198 mph, lapping the Nürburgring in 7 minutes and 30 seconds (faster than a Carrera GT), and achieving fuel economy of up to 78 mpg..........."
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Old 09-21-11, 03:46 PM   #105
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You might be on to something with that thought process, if Toyota did find that solution then WOOOOW!!
Everything exist already, is basically adding the drivetrain of the plug-in liquid-cooled lithium-ion battery technologies from the Testa Roadster to a ISF or LFA gas motor.

AKA 918 Spyder.

The biggest challenge they have to solve is how to package all that stuff into a sedan without taking up the entire trunk, and to lower the cost. A Testa Roadster without a gas engine is $150k, 918 Spyder that comes with everything is $850k.

Kinda like adding a $150k Testa Roadster to a $440k Carrera GT = 918 Spyder.

In Toyota's term, is combining a Testa Roadster with a ISF into a LS body and sell it for less then $200k. It could be done, since a ISF is much cheaper then a Carrera GT.

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