TRDFantasy

Ah so you believed that cover story too? That's not the reality of how things happened.

From Toyota's own press release:

http://pressroom.lexus.com/article_d...rticle_id=1518

So the fact is that Toyota headquarters officially greenlighted the project before it ever went ahead. Now during development, yes it was not an "ordinary" development team. Since Toyota at the time had their resources spread very thin, the company couldn't devote a full team to the IS F development. That's why a small "skunk works" team developed it.

Also it is well known that Akio Toyoda helped green-light the project, just as he helped make the LFA a reality. Akio Toyoda closely followed the IS F development process, just as he closely followed the LFA development process. The entire F sub-brand exists thanks to Akio Toyoda.

LexFather

Hilarious.

Please provide all your evidence that TMG was behind the IS F for us all to read. We will wait patiently.

There is a huge difference between the IS F and the TS-650.

1. The IS F was not a pet project from the CEO of Toyota. The TS-650 was a pet project from the CEO of Toyota.
2. IS F development was done mostly in Japan. The TS-650 mostly in Germany.
3. The IS F was introduced to product planning at the beginning of its model cycle to become a production model. The TS-650 was a pet project at the end of the LS model cycle with the intent to produce only 10 cars. Even that looks like it won't be done.

BNR34

iTrader: (1)

Because concept cars sometimes are just fantasy, production cars have to comply with reality.

Even if they do make a TT 5.0L V8, it would be detune back down to 550 hp~580 hp to increase reliability and longevity. The most Lexus have to do is to match the AMG S63.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

lol, because yaguchi-san actually told bunch of us personally and privately that it was a project they started out in the garage with only a few engineers, and ALONG the way they tried to convince the management about the car going into production. he also admitted there were a lot of resistance but they just continued the development.

you only read into press from brands? i thought that's very much a cover story too.

read different sources, talk to different people, and read between the lines.

it's hilarious when reading is actually fundamental.

paul's focus was that development / operation was done without permission from lexus hq in japan, and that's actually how the isf was started (though by the time it was finished, lexus was behind it already). actually TRD's reply to paul also confirmed that he understands what the focus is on

sorry you got off track and probably wait for no one

LexFather

Who are you talking to? Reading is actually fundamental? I got off track? FYI if you are going to be a smart-***, get it right and say "reading is fundamental", there is no "actually" used in the phrase.

Thanks for this post.

I8ABMR

As much as I want this car to become reality even if it doesn't I am sure they are learning new things for the entire line up as well as having a little fun and testing the limits. I am pretty sure Mercedes doesn't move many S65 AMGs but it sure as hell sends a statement to the rest of the world. This is why Mercedes rep will outshine that of Lexus. They are making cars that make a statement and allow them to maintain a certain international position . Cars like the S, SL, 65 AMG,SLS, all AMG vehicles ( even the damn SUVs)etc as well as the black series vehicles gives Mercedes a status that is unmatched even by their main rival BMW.I dont think Lexus is willing to make that statement but they will need to if they ever want to fully compete with Mercedes. Its one thing to sell more of the typical luxury cars from 40k-70k but to capture the respect and attention of the world is another.
I know they know what they need to do but they arent willing to do it

rominl

iTrader: (4)

apparently that's all you can do when you try to get personal anyway. i am ok with that, won't try to get off topic. at least if i do something wrong, i would admit it and not try to be smart -*** and pick on people where english is second language.

LexFather

That is not what happened and its above. I explained the difference between the IS F and the LS 650. You told me "reading is actually fundamental". Now you are playing victim.

TRD a loyal Toyota/Lexus fan is chastised again.

So again can you explain how the IS F was produced by TMG as you and Paul is leading us to believe in your response to TRDfantasy and how the LS 650 development is just the same as the IS F.. That is what we are waiting for. Thank you

rominl

iTrader: (4)

if you have to believe that's what paul and i were trying to focus on then i can't help you. i think you will just have to wait forever. i am sorry but please don't thank me again

i didn't chastise TRD, he replied to paul and i disagreed that's all. but paul surely didn't lead him to link TMG with ISF development.

it did give me some fun googling
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...ed/its_its.htm

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

you misunderstood my brief comment. TRD asked: "did people really think that Toyota's Cologne operation made a custom super-LS without any permission from Japan headquarters? Of course not!"

my point wasn't that TMG was behind the IS-F, but that TMG could be acting without 'permission' from Japan, just as a small 'skunk works' team made the IS-F concept (with Rod Millen's help I believe) and convinced management to make it. it was a bottom up project.

i've no idea one way or another if this 650hp LS was bottom up or top down, but my point was it could happen either way. you say it's a pet project of the CEO, and you may well be right.

however it's happened, and even if it doesn't come to market in anything like its current form, we can agree it's exciting, and cool that toyota/lexus is experimenting.

TF109B

TMG at times actually do their own thing. They operate as a business now mostly since the F1 program is over with, so certain projects can be undertaken. But Im sure most are with Toyota motor blessing. Like the lmp1 car. They also do the GT-86 race cars that run the ring. I think its great that Akio wanted them to do this car and was one of or the main driving force behind it.

TRDFantasy

So let me be extra clear then; so you're telling me that Akio Toyoda was NOT involved in any way with the start of the IS F project? Is that what you're saying?

You're telling me that without ANY input or involvement from anyone else at Toyota, Yaguchi-san all by himself decided to start the IS F project?

If this is indeed what you're saying, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Perhaps you should read different sources, and talk to different people about how the Lexus F brand started, whose idea was it to start the F brand, and who initially was able to get the IS F and LFA projects moving even before approval from product planning, and even before the Chief Engineers of the IS F and LFA started on their projects.

It's a cover story that Toyota management approved the IS F project? Lol what? That is no cover story. Without official approval from product planning, the IS F would have NEVER made it to production. It would have remained a secret hobby project.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

for someone who's so diehard into believing toyota and lexus brands and refuse to acknowledge what yaguchi-san told bunch of us in person privately about his baby? i am sure you have a lot of bridges to sell but what else can i say. you can just believe what you want, it won't matter to me anyway

TRDFantasy

Personal remarks aside, you still did not answer my question. I will kindly ask one more time: are you saying that Akio Toyoda had zero involvement in the IS F? Did Yaguchi-san explicitly tell you that Akio Toyoda had zero involvement? Yes or no.

If you refuse to answer my question, then my points definitely still stand.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i would strongly suggest you to go back and re-read what i wrote carefully

i won't refuse to answer your question because you simply aren't asking the right question. i never said toyoda was not involved, but he definitely was not involved in the beginning when yaguchi-san started it.

you said and i quote

which i don't see how it's clearly indicated in the press that you quoted. yaguchi started it out on this own as his pet project, got it going. at the same time he tried to pitch it to management, and eventually toyoda got on it as well, and i am sure he must have helped push it to become reality. yaguchi was not given a green light when he started the project. not concept, but started building and developing the car

however, there is a HUGE difference between this and the TMG project where apparently toyoda started it all since the beginning and commissioned TMG to build such a car. what rumored before, that TMG started the TS650 project on their own for someone (without knowing it's toyoda) and later testing the car for other purposes, that's closer to how the ISF project was started.

and you must have missed post #190 when paul explained the same thing

or how about this? why don't you show us explicitly, clearly, and directly, any official document or toyoda's own words that he started the isf project, that he started the idea, asked yaguchi to work on such a car, and then later threw it over to product planning? that's your question in your first statement in #192

i think we have dragged long enough on this issue. bottom line is while you believe everything has to be godsend from headquarter before anyone does something, others believe there are projects who started without any blessing and they work their ways back into the spotlight. simple as that. if you have to disagree, then that's what it is