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Old 11-01-10, 08:21 PM
  #16  
97-SC300
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Originally Posted by batman75
Choose your poison, Lexus with bad build quality, or BMW with bad reliability! After those guys, I don't really take the others seriously from an engineering standpoint.
Lexus has a bad build quality? What specific models are you talking about? You can't be referring to the ENTIRE Lexus brand altogether with that statement, are you? That would be plain ignorant.

Most guys that say BMWs and Mercedes are superior in "engineering" to all other mass production cars are also the same guys that spend too much reading Car and Driver magazines and have never picked up a wrench. Have you ever tried working on a BMW? Do you have any idea how stupidly overcomplicated some of their cars are? This makes them a pita to work on and modify. Just visit your local Mercedes or BMW dealer and have a genuine talk with some of their mechanics (not the sales guys because they are paid to deliver the positives about their cars)... They HATE, and I stress the word hate, working on these cars.

I am no engineer, but wouldn't common logic suggest that something that has excellent engineering also has excellent reliability? We are not talking just frame or metal components here, but all components of the car. It's like to say, "We are the world's best at engineering bridges...but they will collapse without notice or experience other premature failures"... to me it doesn't make sense. In this regard, how can German brands, especially BMW, go around claiming they have superior engineering when they have a very wide array of issues with their cars.
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Old 11-01-10, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 97-SC300
Lexus has a bad build quality? What specific models are you talking about? You can't be referring to the ENTIRE Lexus brand altogether with that statement, are you? That would be plain ignorant.

Most guys that say BMWs and Mercedes are superior in "engineering" to all other mass production cars are also the same guys that spend too much reading Car and Driver magazines and have never picked up a wrench. Have you ever tried working on a BMW? Do you have any idea how stupidly overcomplicated some of their cars are? This makes them a pita to work on and modify. Just visit your local Mercedes or BMW dealer and have a genuine talk with some of their mechanics (not the sales guys because they are paid to deliver the positives about their cars)... They HATE, and I stress the word hate, working on these cars.

I am no engineer, but wouldn't common logic suggest that something that has excellent engineering also has excellent reliability? We are not talking just frame or metal components here, but all components of the car. It's like to say, "We are the world's best at engineering bridges...but they will collapse without notice or experience other premature failures"... to me it doesn't make sense. In this regard, how can German brands, especially BMW, go around claiming they have superior engineering when they have a very wide array of issues with their cars.
most of the recent lexus lineup are no match to older lexus in terms of build quality. this is pretty clear to me from a person experience point of view and also looking at all the cars i work on and people i talk to.

early 2000s were prime. ls430, sc430, gs300/430, es300/330, rx300/330, etc... they were all very solid with great build qualities, details, and fitment. especially the ls430 and sc430, they still remain in my book the two best built lexus.

newer lexus? clear drop in fitment and build quality. i had the ls460l and now gs350 so i know very well. gs300/350/430/460 a lot of fitment issues, rattles and squeaks. es350 when came out a lot of people complained. ls460l wind noise problem, dash rattles, seats, fitment problems. is250/350 also have slight fitment problems though overall i think they are pretty good

but i am definitely not saying the entire lexus lineup, and lexus definitely has caught their problems and paying big time on improving that. imho the new rx and gx have pretty good fitment overall, and i don't read that many problems so far. and a bit older, lx570 have been very good
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Old 11-01-10, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rominl
most of the recent lexus lineup are no match to older lexus in terms of build quality. this is pretty clear to me from a person experience point of view and also looking at all the cars i work on and people i talk to.

early 2000s were prime. ls430, sc430, gs300/430, es300/330, rx300/330, etc... they were all very solid with great build qualities, details, and fitment. especially the ls430 and sc430, they still remain in my book the two best built lexus.

newer lexus? clear drop in fitment and build quality. i had the ls460l and now gs350 so i know very well. gs300/350/430/460 a lot of fitment issues, rattles and squeaks. es350 when came out a lot of people complained. ls460l wind noise problem, dash rattles, seats, fitment problems. is250/350 also have slight fitment problems though overall i think they are pretty good

but i am definitely not saying the entire lexus lineup, and lexus definitely has caught their problems and paying big time on improving that. imho the new rx and gx have pretty good fitment overall, and i don't read that many problems so far. and a bit older, lx570 have been very good
I get what you're saying. My brother works at Lexus and he often says the newer models have more issues. That being said, isn't BMW notorious in having cheap interiors? I drove my friend's new 3 series and was shocked how it felt like a Honda inside. I am not even exaggerating; the materials, the design, road noise, and the fit and finish was at best on par with my other buddy's 09 Honda CRV. I would even rate the Honda higher in that department and that is a 20k car vs. a 30-40+K BMW.
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Old 11-02-10, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 97-SC300
I get what you're saying. My brother works at Lexus and he often says the newer models have more issues. That being said, isn't BMW notorious in having cheap interiors? I drove my friend's new 3 series and was shocked how it felt like a Honda inside. I am not even exaggerating; the materials, the design, road noise, and the fit and finish was at best on par with my other buddy's 09 Honda CRV. I would even rate the Honda higher in that department and that is a 20k car vs. a 30-40+K BMW.
my 08 m3 interior definitely has better fitment than my 08 gs350, that much i can tell you. i am not saying it's better overall though, but on fitment at least. and in terms of feel, i can't say i am a fan of the feel of 2is interior either, but i agree 2is has better interior than 3 series

for me if i have to do fair comparison and look at the new 5 series, it has far better interior than the 3gs. but looking at the e60 interior, i would choose my gs350.

so to me, things can get pretty subjective. i also know people who think bmw interiors are simpler and more solid feel whereas lexus is on the flimsy side. just another data point.

that's why for me i focus more on the fitment, alignment, noise (as in squeaks and rattles)
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Old 11-02-10, 12:14 AM
  #20  
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For the most part, the idea that German cars have "superior engineering" is largely an extremely well-fabricated myth, or great marketing at work, whichever you prefer. The sole exception would be Porsche, as they in-fact do have very good engineering. All that needs to be looked are the facts. Long-term reliability surveys, studies, and warranty data quickly show what brands have "superior" engineering.

This is similar to the idea that all Italian cars are "sporty", "sexy", and "have soul".

A lot of very clever deep-rooted marketing has gone on with some of these German and Italian brands.

Some time in the past the idea that Germans had "superior engineering" might have been true, or the idea about Italian cars. Today that is not necessarily true anymore.

Also in combination with marketing, many of these ideas are based on subjective experiences. Most German cars tend to be heavy and ride firm, so thus they give off the impression of feeling very "solid". This leads some people to assume the cars have "great engineering" because they "feel solid".

It is the honest truth that German cars on average are a lot more complicated to work on and fix than say Japanese cars.

Of course, most average Joes or even enthusiasts don't necessarily know all of the above. North America is mostly a "mile a minute" fast-paced society. Most people either don't have time to do thorough research or don't care. Brands rule the market. We live in a brand-based society. Even during the dark years of Mercedes quality (mid 90s to mid 2000), lots of people still bought Benz vehicles simply because of brand.

Brands specifically rule the luxury market, and other high-end markets. Brands still matter in the mainstream market as well, just to slightly lesser extent.

In Europe, a lot of people support local brands, that's all there is to say about that. Asian markets are also very brand-focused like North America. Even brands with so-so reputations sell well because of the "mysterious mystique" or allure that they have for those buyers. Decades of marketing and reputation does wonders for a brand's worldwide word-of-mouth.

Originally Posted by DustinV
While impressive, it's naturally also marketing on Lexus' part. Because other premium manufacturers conduct similar techniques in regards to ensuring their standards.

I saw a documentary a few years ago how engines are made at Ferrari. The part I remember was how they smelt a newly created engine block that had just been created in their engine factory because of a "small problem". The block was melted back into a liquid state (and the different properties were separated to be combined later again) and then reshaped into that same engine block sans the imperfections.

That part about Toshikatsu Kuroyanagi reminded me of an old Samurai sword craftsman for some reason!
Yet that still doesn't prevent Ferraris from being terribly unreliable in many other aspects. Nor were such quality measures able to prevent the fire risk on all 458 models.

Yes, Ferrari may use quality materials and they may take great care (in terms of a human touch) in making their cars, but that does not mean they are reliable.

Lexus goes above and beyond most other brands in terms of precision and reliability.
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Old 11-02-10, 07:03 AM
  #21  
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Here is the actual article.




By Brian Gill
Okay, that headline is one huge, bold, big-talking claim. But the fact is, the lengths Lexus goes to help make premium cars continue to just blow the Lexus magazine editorial team’s minds. Consider, and judge for yourself whether Lexus deserves the headline:
Reason 1: The stethoscope treatment. First up, think about this: every Lexus LS engine is fired up on a test bench and personally inspected before it goes in a vehicle. That’s right: every engine. Each of these engines was individually placed on what’s called the Assembly Balancer while a skilled technician pored over the running engine personally, looking, touching, and even listening with a stethoscope to help make sure it hummed along perfectly.
Reason 2: Magic fingers. Get yourself a piece of paper. Close your eyes. Touch one side, then touch the other. Can you tell which is the front, and which is the back? Lexus engine-machining technicians can. These guys and gals are trained to feel the difference, a skill that takes years to develop. So why is this important? It’s those same fingertips that go over engine parts before assembly, backing up the digital measurements with a craftsman’s touch—checking smoothness and curvature, and looking for any minute imperfections that must be rectified before assembly.
Reason 3: No dust in the wind. To say Lexus is obsessed with keeping micron-size particulates away from precision components is an understatement. Once engine parts are made, Lexus preps them for assembly in a lab-like clean room, isolated from the rest of the facility. Here, workers are given “air showers” before they enter, parts are kept in special dust-free containers, and each part and container gets multiple high-power vacuums before components are assembled.
Reason 4: Military discipline. Lexus’ plant workers aren’t U.S. Marines, but you’d never know it by watching their skills tests. Take the process for testing a worker’s ability to install a single hose grommet correctly. Three superiors gather around the installer like drill sergeants. One commands loudly, “TODAY, WE WILL CONDUCT A SKILLS CERTIFICATION FOR THE BASIC INSTALLATION OF THE AC DRAIN HOSE!” The installer answers with a military-like response, installs the part while shouting out each by-the-book step, and finishes by standing at attention and reciting everything that could go wrong if this small part isn’t installed correctly.
Reason 5: Quality metal. You’ve, of course, heard of Iron Man. Well, Lexus has an Aluminum Man, specifically Toshikatsu Kuroyanagi, one of Lexus’ elite Takumi (the 10 masters who oversee different areas of a Lexus vehicle). His job: ensure quality at the liquid metal stage of engine creation. You see, apparently not all aluminum is alike—so Lexus quality starts by ensuring the molten metal contains minimal gases: the fewer gases, the stronger the metal will be when it’s formed into parts. The fact that Lexus devotes this level of in-house care to the raw materials it uses is just plain impressive.
Reason 6: Extreme prototype testing. To help ensure that electronic systems function despite atmospheric energy, such as television waves, solar radiation, and lightning, Lexus engineers subject new vehicles to wild electromagnetic interference in a giant chamber made for this purpose. That’s in addition to subjecting prototypes to temperatures ranging from 225 degrees above to 30 degrees below Fahrenheit.
Reason 7: Your engine’s inspector could have been an orchestra conductor. Remember those stethoscope inspections we mentioned earlier? It’s not just anybody who conducts them. Lexus Takumi Toshimitsu Kayashima sums it up this way: “An orchestra conductor is able to discern in an instant if one of the instruments is off, even when everyone is playing at once. In this way, our engine inspectors can discern from 20 different engine sounds happening at once, and on top of that, the tones that differ with each rpm.” In other words, Lexus uses people with maestro-like hearing to help make sure your Lexus engine runs precisely.
Reason 8: Responsive paint. This is the kind of deep thought Lexus puts into how your Lexus vehicle looks. First of all, vehicle paint will appear different under sun than under clouds. So Lexus gives its vehicles two base coats (out of a six-layered paint system), one designed for each lighting condition. The first base coat contains large aluminum flakes, which sparkle better under sunlight. The second base coat contains smaller flakes, which sparkle better under cloudy skies.
Reason 9: Lexus was the first to... Speaking of introducing the production-auto world to new things, it’s Lexus that consistently puts out vehicle systems that the world has never seen before. The world’s first prestige luxury hybrid. The world’s first eight-speed automatic transmission. The world’s first LED low-beam headlamps. The world’s first active pedestrian-detection system. The list goes on. Lexus is basically a brain trust of visionaries—and these are the kinds of minds that are thinking about your next Lexus vehicle, right now.
Reason 10: Dependability. Even in a year of recalls, Lexus continues to rank very high in quality studies, and the automaker has been a recognized leader in the reliability department for years. There are reasons for this, nine of them listed above. The true Lexus experts, Lexus owners, already know this, of course, and will likely not be surprised when Lexus continues to be a top reliability leader in the years to come. ’Nuff said.
 
Old 11-02-10, 08:16 AM
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Reliability and build with mechanic in mind that average Joe can work on or diagonistic are selling point of Toyota/Lexus. So until the competitions improve on these two department, I'm still a Toyota/Lexus owner.
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Old 11-02-10, 11:35 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
For the most part, the idea that German cars have "superior engineering" is largely an extremely well-fabricated myth, or great marketing at work, whichever you prefer. The sole exception would be Porsche, as they in-fact do have very good engineering. All that needs to be looked are the facts. Long-term reliability surveys, studies, and warranty data quickly show what brands have "superior" engineering.

Audi/VW, BMW and Mercedes (and Porsche) are engineering-driven companies and their technology demonstrates that. The slogan "German Engineering" comes from the innovation these brands have brought us since the early days and the innovation and technology they develop and bring to the market today.

To leave out the rest and claim that Porsche is an "engineering company" based on reliability surveys is seriously laughable.

Maybe you should have a look at this link: http://www.carthrottle.com/10-surpri...rce=feedburner

Reliability is important to me, but I have never taken reliability surveys seriously because there are to many unclear factors about what the word "reliable" means to individual consumers. For some, a broken cup holder is enough to label a car as a low quality/unreliable product.

Modern cars are very reliable. The differences between individual brand reliability as a whole are rather small when you examine the big picture. And every brand has lemons. Nothing is perfect.




Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
In Europe, a lot of people support local brands, that's all there is to say about that. Asian markets are also very brand-focused like North America. Even brands with so-so reputations sell well because of the "mysterious mystique" or allure that they have for those buyers. Decades of marketing and reputation does wonders for a brand's worldwide word-of-mouth.
People here also support local brands because they're perfectly adapted to local requirements.

Foreign brands like Honda, Hyundai, Nissan or Toyota do extremely well in Europe. What are you complaining about?

Is it the fact that Lexus is rather weak in Europe? Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why. The premium market in Europe is vastly different from the luxury market in the United States. I don't want to get into this argument again, but Lexus simply hasn't adapted themselves for rivaling their competitors in this particular market. Period.



Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Yet that still doesn't prevent Ferraris from being terribly unreliable in many other aspects. Nor were such quality measures able to prevent the fire risk on all 458 models.
"Terribly unreliable"? I think you're overdoing it here. To my knowledge Consumer Reports doesn't even rate exotics and Ferrari quality has improved. I'm sure you claim that Ferrari products are "terribly unreliable" because they're Italian, right? The old stereotype at work, I see.

Do you know how those stereotypes arose? Here's one example. In order to meet the ever stringent emissions laws, the Ferrari's (and many other European cars) heading towards the US in the 1970s and 1980s received fuel-injection. Fuel-injection was still a novelty in those days (most American cars at the time still used carburetors) and most owners (or even mechanics) had no idea to how to solve problems if they arose as a result of these issues. A broken or faulty carburetor? People did it themselves in those days by either fixing or replacing it. A broken component of the fuel-injection system? What do I do!?

Exotic cars like Ferrari or Lamborghini are vehicles that aren't driven on a daily basis because they're frankly not practical. These are weekend cars or cars that you drive to have fun in. Reliability isn't a big concern to someone buying a Ferrari.

And I personally know three Ferrari owners (including one here in Stuttgart who owns a '72 365 GTC) and they'll all tell you that if they cared about reliability they'd have gone for a boring Corolla. A Ferrari is about passion, fun and lifestyle. Reliability is a secondary (not even) concern to these people.

Reliability is important to me, to. But I go out and buy cars I like from a styling, value and design perspective knowing full well that they're going to have a high degree of reliability given that modern cars in general are very reliable. Consumer Reports? I find them to vague on what constitutes reliability.



Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Lexus goes above and beyond most other brands in terms of precision and reliability.
And you know this because...?

Because of this advertisement, excuse me, article that was written by someone who is employed by Toyota and perhaps even Lexus-biased?


For the most part, the idea that Lexus cars have "superior engineering" is largely an extremely well-fabricated myth, or great marketing at work, whichever you prefer.

Sound familiar?

In no way am I trying to discredit Lexus here, but this article you seem to believe in so badly is also nothing more than great marketing at its best.

Everyone does it.

Yes, Lexus prides themselves on this type of "the extra step" method, but as I've said before, other manufacturers, especially premium, have similar (perhaps not as drastic as Lexus) standards to ensure quality. Lexus just advertises theirs more - and they have to as this is their selling point. There are not many things Lexus has that makes them stand out relative to their competition who have been around for decades (or a century in some cases). People know about these brands - people don't know to much about Lexus. It makes sense for them to flaunt these types of articles in order to create buzz.
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