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Old 06-04-10, 09:13 AM   #46
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YEH, Nissan's competitor to the Genesis is the Maxima and the Maxima is stomping all over the Genesis in sales.
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Old 06-04-10, 09:15 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLexus301 View Post
^ The real question is: Would an IS and/or ES hybrid have more appeal?

My guess is yes.
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Originally Posted by Trexus View Post
I agree with you as well. I think an IS hybrid (IS 450h) and especially an ES hybrid (ES 450h) would definitely bring more buyers to Lexus.

The ES alone with no other variations still outsells the IS with three variations. Adding an ES hybrid would increase sales of the ES...Toyota does have a Camry hybrid and an RX hybrid which all pretty much shares the same platform.
I agree with both of you.

An ES hybrid would sell an easy 2K a month (just like the RX hybrid does).

An IS hybrid probably wouldn't sell as well though, since the IS is already a tight car on the inside. The extra space the batteries would take up would make the IS's interior space laughable.
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Old 06-04-10, 09:36 AM   #48
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^^ I do wonder how much ES cannibalization there would be with a hybrid ES? I don't think sales would rise that much, I just think people would chose it over the usual ES.

Let us not forget that the ES is bought by older clientele and they may distrust and not want a hybrid powertrain.

Contrarily I think the younger IS crowd would be more inclined to purchase an ISh. Just look at how Leuxs is aiming the CTh at a young audience.
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Old 06-04-10, 11:27 AM   #49
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Didn't we already have this "debate" already?

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Originally Posted by MPLexus301 View Post
I don't know why that would really matter for Infiniti. The Genesis costs 10-$25K less than the M so they really aren't direct competitors.
B/c some potential M buyers look and compare the two and opt to save their $$ and go w/ the Genesis.

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Exactly. The Genesis V-6 3.8 starts at $33,000. That is actually below the 335, IS 350, ES 350, HS 250 in price (as well as others).The V-6 M37 starts at $46,250. .
And the LS400 for the 1st couple of years started below a fully loaded E Class and was actually closer to the price of a fully loaded C Class (and no, I'm NOT comparing the Genesis to the LS).

Did that mean that the LS400 was not in the same segment as the S Class/7 Series or that Mercedes and BMW didn't have to worry about the LS stealing sales from their flagship?

As for the new M, sales have actually decreased since its 1st full month and that's even w/ Infiniti already putting a lot of $$ on the hood.

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YEH, Nissan's competitor to the Genesis is the Maxima and the Maxima is stomping all over the Genesis in sales.
So what does that make the Azera (well, the next gen Azera anways) and the Kia Cadenza?

Hyundai is working on a compact RWD sedan based on a shortened Genesis platform - is that to be compared to the Altima?
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Old 06-04-10, 11:48 AM   #50
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There are a lot of things that are very different about the Genesis when trying to draw any sort of parallel to the LS 400. I see a lot of Hyundai people drawing that comparison and it simply holds NO water, IMO.

The Genesis is a Hyundai-badged car with nice luxury features and solid powertrains, but it is still sold, serviced, and considered along side Accents and Elantras. I am NOT saying that it's not a good car but the life of the Genesis simply can't be compared to the LS and it has a lot to do with the fact that Lexus is a seperate brand, Hyundai is....Hyundai.
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Old 06-04-10, 11:54 AM   #51
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Didn't we already have this "debate" already?



B/c some potential M buyers look and compare the two and opt to save their $$ and go w/ the Genesis.



And the LS400 for the 1st couple of years started below a fully loaded E Class and was actually closer to the price of a fully loaded C Class (and no, I'm NOT comparing the Genesis to the LS).

Did that mean that the LS400 was not in the same segment as the S Class/7 Series or that Mercedes and BMW didn't have to worry about the LS stealing sales from their flagship?

As for the new M, sales have actually decreased since its 1st full month and that's even w/ Infiniti already putting a lot of $$ on the hood.



So what does that make the Azera (well, the next gen Azera anways) and the Kia Cadenza?

Hyundai is working on a compact RWD sedan based on a shortened Genesis platform - is that to be compared to the Altima?
Will you STOP WITH THE GENESIS vs LS comparisons!!! It is not close! You did the same thing in the March thread. Its NOT a debate at all.

1. The LS was priced like an E-class and sized closer to the S-class. This C-class price is hogwash with you trying to discredit the LS Everything the LS offered was on par or better than the Germans at the time including its own dealership network. Every single review was STUNNED by the LS 400. The Genesis does not have the effect at all.

2. The Genesis debuted as a nice car at a cheaper price no doubt. IT BEATS THE COMPETITION IN NOTHING, it is not more luxurious, it is not faster, it doesn't handle better, it doesn't brake slower, it doesn't have more technology, it doesn't do any one component BETTER than offering a LOWER PRICE. The Genesis is the typical Hyundai taking different things from brands, putting it in a blender and making a new solid product. It is a GREAT product. It did not shake up the luxury world or automotive landscape like the LS 400 did and Lexus did in 1989. It is not close. The Genesis simply is the first credible S. Korean entry here. It didn't turn the luxury arena upside down like the LS 400 did.

The LS was considered one of the greatest luxury efforts of all brands immediately. The Genesis was considered a great luxury effort for HYUNDAI. Big difference.

3. The LS debuted with a class leading dealership network and top notch customer service. The Genesis is still under Hyundai's arm. You are missing A LOT of the ownership experience. You are getting LESS for LESS.

4. Yes the LS offered E-class price for S-class level amenities AND MORE. The LS became a BENCHMARK immediately. It has been considered one of the 100 greatest cars ever made. It set the entire world on its ear and surpassed and eclipsed all sales goals. Lexus became a sensation overnight. In contrast the Genesis offers GS level amenities for an ES price and it is not clear it is a better car. Some people think it is, some people think it isn't. It isn't meeting sales goals. The world could care less. It is a great car for Hyundai but has not shaken up the estbalishment like the LS did.

It is APPLES to ORANGES.
Click the image to open in full size.

To top that off we have no data showing how many Genesis buyers cross shopped the new M. It is all speculative on everyone's part. I assure you there are many M37/56 shoppers who won't even consider the Genesis for whatever reason(s).

I am a huge fan of the Genesis but it is not any 2nd coming of the LS 400. Its not close. It is a great car that is trying to find its niche. I am not going to hate on Hyundai or the Genesis b/c some people want to shove the brands down our throats and discredit Lexus/Toyota at every turn.
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Old 06-04-10, 12:08 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLexus301 View Post
There are a lot of things that are very different about the Genesis when trying to draw any sort of parallel to the LS 400. I see a lot of Hyundai people drawing that comparison and it simply holds NO water, IMO.
The price differentiation argument has no bearing whatsoever in comparing the Genesis to the LS (esp. since the Genesis is an E segment and not an F segment sedan like the LS).

The argument still stands that the LS400 was priced more like an E segment 9or even a D segment) luxury sedan than an F segment luxury sedan; but that still doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been compared to the other F segment sedans.

Likewise, the Genesis sedan is priced more like a D segment sedan, but that also means it isn't comparable to other E segment sedans just due to pricing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLexus301 View Post
The Genesis is a Hyundai-badged car with nice luxury features and solid powertrains, but it is still sold, serviced, and considered along side Accents and Elantras. I am NOT saying that it's not a good car but the life of the Genesis simply can't be compared to the LS and it has a lot to do with the fact that Lexus is a seperate brand, Hyundai is....Hyundai.
Again, who's comparing the Genesis to the LS? (The Equus, otoh...).

Until 5 years ago, the LS and GS were sold as Toyotas in Japan (the Celsior and Aristo); does that bump the Japanese versions from the luxury threshold since they are "just" Toyotas.

The Toyota Century sits at the top of the Toyota/Lexus hierarchy; I guess it's not luxury due to the fact that it's a Toyota.

Same applies to the Toyota Crown Majesta, even tho, it is regarded as an F segment competitor (a segment above the GS).

The Infiniti G37 is "just" a Nissan Skyline; the Q45 is no longer available in the States, but it is still available in Japan as the Nissan Cima (I guess the Cima isn't "luxury"); the Acura TSX is just the Euro/JDM Accord; etc.
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Old 06-04-10, 12:17 PM   #53
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Will you STOP WITH THE GENESIS vs LS comparisons!!! It is not close! You did the same thing in the March thread. Its NOT a debate at all.
Oh, my!!! lol

I don't know HOW many times I'm going to have to say this, but I'm NOT comparing the Genesis to the LS at all w/ respect to anything else but the pricing strategy.

Fine, let's take the Genesis out of the equation (to make it easier for you).

When the Equus launches in the US, it will be priced (despite being an F segment competitor) more in line w/ the E segment sedans.

That, however, doesn't mean that is an E segment sedan simply b/c it is priced like one (just like how the LS400 wasn't an E segment sedan when it was priced in the mid $30K range).

Hence, saying that the Genesis is a Maxima/Taurus/Avalon competitor (never mind the FWD/RWD diff.) purely based on price doesn't make sense since the Azera and Kia Cadenza compete in that segment.

Hyundai isn't so foolish as to have 2 models competing in the same segment.

If that's the case, then the Sonata is a Corolla competitor and the Elantra competes in the Yaris' segment.
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Old 06-04-10, 12:43 PM   #54
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an ES hybrid would be too similar to the Camry Hybrid. Not only woul you have the same platform, you would have the same engine and drivetrain?
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Old 06-04-10, 01:03 PM   #55
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an ES hybrid would be too similar to the Camry Hybrid. Not only woul you have the same platform, you would have the same engine and drivetrain?
But, the current ES and Camry V6 share platforms, engine and drivetrains and both sell well, so maybe there would be room for both.
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Old 06-04-10, 01:16 PM   #56
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an ES hybrid would be too similar to the Camry Hybrid. Not only woul you have the same platform, you would have the same engine and drivetrain?
Same goes for the ES vs Camry now.
I think if a ES hybrid was around $4K more than the ES it would sell and this is coming from someone who wouldn't buy a hybrid.
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Old 06-04-10, 01:41 PM   #57
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Camry hybrid is paired with a 4 cylinder. An ES hybrid would/should be paired with a V6 (a small one IMO), thus they would remain two different cars.

But I do agree a 4 cylinder ES hybrid would sell. However, lets see how the MKZ hybrid does. My guess is that it will do well.
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Old 06-04-10, 01:51 PM   #58
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The hybrid in paired to the old 2.4 though right? I assume any new hybrid will get the newer 2.5?

The CT is clearly using the incredible Prius drivetrain/engine.
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Old 06-04-10, 03:33 PM   #59
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The hybrid in paired to the old 2.4 though right? I assume any new hybrid will get the newer 2.5?

The CT is clearly using the incredible Prius drivetrain/engine.
and yet the HS still uses the old 2.4. what were they thinking?
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Old 06-04-10, 04:38 PM   #60
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The price differentiation argument has no bearing whatsoever in comparing the Genesis to the LS (esp. since the Genesis is an E segment and not an F segment sedan like the LS).

The argument still stands that the LS400 was priced more like an E segment 9or even a D segment) luxury sedan than an F segment luxury sedan; but that still doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been compared to the other F segment sedans.
Stop with this "priced like a C-class" lies.It is discrediting the LS period. It was priced like the E-class aimed at the S-class which EVERY SINGLE EXPERT stated.

You continue to omit the fact the LS was with a LUXURY BRAND and the Genesis is not. The LS changed the entire luxury landscape, the Genesis DID NOT.



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Originally Posted by YEH View Post
Again, who's comparing the Genesis to the LS? (The Equus, otoh...).

Until 5 years ago, the LS and GS were sold as Toyotas in Japan (the Celsior and Aristo); does that bump the Japanese versions from the luxury threshold since they are "just" Toyotas.
Click the image to open in full size. The LS/GS were designed as a Lexus and sold as a Lexus everywhere BUT JAPAN. The Genesis is a Hyundai EVERYWHERE.

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Originally Posted by YEH View Post
The Toyota Century sits at the top of the Toyota/Lexus hierarchy; I guess it's not luxury due to the fact that it's a Toyota.

Same applies to the Toyota Crown Majesta, even tho, it is regarded as an F segment competitor (a segment above the GS).

The Infiniti G37 is "just" a Nissan Skyline; the Q45 is no longer available in the States, but it is still available in Japan as the Nissan Cima (I guess the Cima isn't "luxury"); the Acura TSX is just the Euro/JDM Accord; etc.
The LFA now sits on top the Toyota/Lexus hierarchy.

You come here every month to twist words and argue about Hyundai/Kia and the Genesis. NO ONE SAID THE GENESIS WASN'T A LUXURY VEHICLE. Your entire post is just argumentative for the sake of it.

You refuse to see any difference in the 1989 Lexus LS 400 debut and the 2008 Hyundai Genesis.


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Oh, my!!! lol

I don't know HOW many times I'm going to have to say this, but I'm NOT comparing the Genesis to the LS at all w/ respect to anything else but the pricing strategy.

Fine, let's take the Genesis out of the equation (to make it easier for you).

When the Equus launches in the US, it will be priced (despite being an F segment competitor) more in line w/ the E segment sedans.

That, however, doesn't mean that is an E segment sedan simply b/c it is priced like one (just like how the LS400 wasn't an E segment sedan when it was priced in the mid $30K range).

Hence, saying that the Genesis is a Maxima/Taurus/Avalon competitor (never mind the FWD/RWD diff.) purely based on price doesn't make sense since the Azera and Kia Cadenza compete in that segment.

Hyundai isn't so foolish as to have 2 models competing in the same segment.

If that's the case, then the Sonata is a Corolla competitor and the Elantra competes in the Yaris' segment.
You just want to argue.

The Equus will sell in VERY LIMITED numbers. Hyundai knows if no one bought the Infiniti Q45, the Audi A8 and the VW Phaeton a 60-70k Hyundai has no chance. The Genesis sedan never met sales goals. It is a TOUGH SELL. Let me inform you of something. The D class segment won't be impressed with a car that looks like something else inside and out and offers nothing different outside of a cheaper price. What is stunning for a Hyundai is NOT stunning for other brands. I have commended them over and over for trying and investing in RWD/V-8s etc. I also know there is no huge line of people dying to buy them.

A lot of brands have competing models in the same segment and IT WORKS.
ES/HS/IS/Avalon
Maxima/G37
Regal/Lacrosse/Lucerne
A4/CC/Passat
Accord/TSX/TL/RL

Hyundai/Kia has the same strategy. They offer like cars and SUVs at similar prices and people choose what they like.

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