War on Toyota
02-07-10, 09:30 PM
#61
Yeah you have to consider the percent of cars affected. And this is why I am arguing there is bias against toyota.
Here are some facts:
1)There were 128 unintended acceleration compaints to the NHTSA last year before the San Diego crash
2) There were 47 unintended aceleration complaints against Toyota. There were 36 unintended acceleration complaints across Ford.
3) The ratio of complaints against Toyota and Ford is almost proportional to their market shares.
Conclusion: This is logical derivation from the facts above folks - so don't argue with it: the probability you have an acceleration issue with a Ford is the same as with a Toyota.
So I think this is a clear case of bias.
And BTW to the chap who posted earlier that unintended acceleration is serious and must be pursued no matter how rare - by that criteria we should be pursuing Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM, Honda and Nissan.
Here are some facts:
1)There were 128 unintended acceleration compaints to the NHTSA last year before the San Diego crash
2) There were 47 unintended aceleration complaints against Toyota. There were 36 unintended acceleration complaints across Ford.
3) The ratio of complaints against Toyota and Ford is almost proportional to their market shares.
Conclusion: This is logical derivation from the facts above folks - so don't argue with it: the probability you have an acceleration issue with a Ford is the same as with a Toyota.
So I think this is a clear case of bias.
And BTW to the chap who posted earlier that unintended acceleration is serious and must be pursued no matter how rare - by that criteria we should be pursuing Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM, Honda and Nissan.
Last edited by *Batman*; 02-07-10 at 09:34 PM.
02-07-10, 10:11 PM
#62
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Hey you guys,
I don't know the full story about this, but one of my classmate's 2008 Camry might have been one of the vehicles that experienced a "sticky" pedal. She was in an accident last week going on the freeway. Although it ended up not being a high speed collision, her car is definitely totaled. She came out fine without injury.
Apparently she was saying that her car "wasn't slowing down" and she ended up hitting the concrete barrier. What I understood from the conversation was that the gas pedal might have gotten "stuck" on whatever pressure she had it at. There was no "sudden acceleration". So then she started riding on the brakes to try to slow down. After a while she started noticing that the car was barely slowing down, meaning that the brakes were failing.
(**She did not think of putting the car in neutral, or using the e-brake.**)
Luckily she was able to slow down the car enough so that her collision wasn't severe.
Once again, I don't know the full story what happened, but I will keep you guys posted.
I don't know the full story about this, but one of my classmate's 2008 Camry might have been one of the vehicles that experienced a "sticky" pedal. She was in an accident last week going on the freeway. Although it ended up not being a high speed collision, her car is definitely totaled. She came out fine without injury.
Apparently she was saying that her car "wasn't slowing down" and she ended up hitting the concrete barrier. What I understood from the conversation was that the gas pedal might have gotten "stuck" on whatever pressure she had it at. There was no "sudden acceleration". So then she started riding on the brakes to try to slow down. After a while she started noticing that the car was barely slowing down, meaning that the brakes were failing.
(**She did not think of putting the car in neutral, or using the e-brake.**)
Luckily she was able to slow down the car enough so that her collision wasn't severe.
Once again, I don't know the full story what happened, but I will keep you guys posted.
02-07-10, 10:32 PM
#63
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The NHTSA cleared Toyota in most cases because there was no concrete or substantive evidence proving Toyota was at fault in most of these cases.
The only thing ridiculous here is that the media is reporting almost exclusively on Toyota's problems, and not on GM, Chrysler, Ford, or Honda problems. That and the fact that the government is exclusively focusing on Toyota.
The news reports on Toyota will stop when a new story come up. It really is that simple. Anyone that knows the news business knows this. Toyota is today's story and will be the story until tomorrows story if found. It's the same with any story ever reported. It's not a witch hunt like some think it is. There is no such thing as good news in the news business. If it is not bad news it is not news at all. This is how is has been for decades. Don't blame the media as they just report what the majority of society wants them to report.
Also, sudden acceleration and stuck gas pedals no matter how rare it may be to the majority of car owners is not minor. I personally think it is a major problem because I don't want to be the rare person that experiences it. If you can guarantee me that the problem will NOT happen to any of my families cars and only happen to your cars than I'd say its a minor issue and wont give it a second thought. I mean seriously, isn't that the way everyone is thinking about it right now? It doesn't or wont happen to me so who cares. If it does happen to you or any family member will it then be a big deal?
Also, sudden acceleration and stuck gas pedals no matter how rare it may be to the majority of car owners is not minor. I personally think it is a major problem because I don't want to be the rare person that experiences it. If you can guarantee me that the problem will NOT happen to any of my families cars and only happen to your cars than I'd say its a minor issue and wont give it a second thought. I mean seriously, isn't that the way everyone is thinking about it right now? It doesn't or wont happen to me so who cares. If it does happen to you or any family member will it then be a big deal?
If it was found to be operator error, it still would have been reported. News reports fatalities all the time because those are pretty much all the accidents worth rolling the crew out for. Fatality or critical is the key works they listen to on the scanners.
Personally, I think what made this a major news story is Toyota and everyone and their mother were dismissing these accidents as a floor mat issue and nothing else. Suddenly more reports come in with accidents where no floor mats were in the car, then Toyota suddenly announces a possible faulty gas pedal assembly. To tell you the truth I'd raise hell to Toyota too since they were adamant it was simply a floor mat issue and nothing more.
All said, I would still not hesitate to buy a Toyota if it is the car I wanted. We just got a new 2010 Toyota for my dad, I still want to buy either a Camry Hybrid or Venza for my mom. I don't care about problems, I just care about if there is a fix or not.
Personally, I think what made this a major news story is Toyota and everyone and their mother were dismissing these accidents as a floor mat issue and nothing else. Suddenly more reports come in with accidents where no floor mats were in the car, then Toyota suddenly announces a possible faulty gas pedal assembly. To tell you the truth I'd raise hell to Toyota too since they were adamant it was simply a floor mat issue and nothing more.
All said, I would still not hesitate to buy a Toyota if it is the car I wanted. We just got a new 2010 Toyota for my dad, I still want to buy either a Camry Hybrid or Venza for my mom. I don't care about problems, I just care about if there is a fix or not.
The media would also have a vested interest in not reporting the story because it would make the themselves (the media) look bad, since they ran the story like wildfire claiming this was a problem with the Lexus that caused the crash, and not operator error (even though so far no definitive cause for the crash has been found or released). It would make the media look silly, so it would be in their interest to downplay news of the crash being operator error.
Where do you think some of the reports came from in the first place? The NHTSA made some of the issues overblown with no substantive evidence, the media started to report these stories, and the ridiculous actions and statements of government officials fueled these stories resulting in the current hysteria we have now.
Sorry, but such huge controversies or hysterical events do not just happen by accident or because it is "today's story". It is naive to think the media exists in a bubble immune from any government influence, or that the media does not have their own interests sometimes in certain stories.
You yourself prove my point by saying "if it's not bad news it's not news at all". That just proves the media has a biased, vested interest in certain news stories. They are not objectively reporting the news by definition. They are always over-blowing and exaggerating stories, especially if they are negative stories.
02-08-10, 06:04 AM
#64
If it was found to be operator error, it still would have been reported. News reports fatalities all the time because those are pretty much all the accidents worth rolling the crew out for. Fatality or critical is the key works they listen to on the scanners.
Personally, I think what made this a major news story is Toyota and everyone and their mother were dismissing these accidents as a floor mat issue and nothing else. Suddenly more reports come in with accidents where no floor mats were in the car, then Toyota suddenly announces a possible faulty gas pedal assembly. To tell you the truth I'd raise hell to Toyota too since they were adamant it was simply a floor mat issue and nothing more.
All said, I would still not hesitate to buy a Toyota if it is the car I wanted. We just got a new 2010 Toyota for my dad, I still want to buy either a Camry Hybrid or Venza for my mom. I don't care about problems, I just care about if there is a fix or not.
Personally, I think what made this a major news story is Toyota and everyone and their mother were dismissing these accidents as a floor mat issue and nothing else. Suddenly more reports come in with accidents where no floor mats were in the car, then Toyota suddenly announces a possible faulty gas pedal assembly. To tell you the truth I'd raise hell to Toyota too since they were adamant it was simply a floor mat issue and nothing more.
All said, I would still not hesitate to buy a Toyota if it is the car I wanted. We just got a new 2010 Toyota for my dad, I still want to buy either a Camry Hybrid or Venza for my mom. I don't care about problems, I just care about if there is a fix or not.
There is still no hard evidence of any defect, yet the media is willing to render a verdict without any evidence at all. But for some reason we still have to call the Fort Hood shooter the "alleged shooter"
02-08-10, 06:50 AM
#65
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
more and more info coming out... ABC: The Influence game...
Toyota has not been a big player in U.S. campaigns. Its U.S. employees contributed roughly $30,000 to federal candidates in 2007-08, compared with about $880,000 from Ford Motor Co. employees and about $799,000 from GM workers.
Unlike rivals Ford and GM, Toyota doesn't have a political action committee to dole out campaign contributions. Toyota's PAC would have difficulty distinguishing itself from Toyota's Japanese management to the degree needed to be legal under U.S. campaign finance laws.
That makes Toyota an unwitting example of an issue that has become a hot topic in Washington in recent days: foreign companies with U.S. subsidiaries and their involvement in U.S. elections. The Supreme Court ruled last month that U.S. corporations and unions can spend treasury money on election ads attacking federal candidates. Some Democrats including President Obama argue the ruling would let foreign corporations with U.S. subsidiaries sneak into U.S. election activities, and they plan legislation to close such a loophole.
Unlike rivals Ford and GM, Toyota doesn't have a political action committee to dole out campaign contributions. Toyota's PAC would have difficulty distinguishing itself from Toyota's Japanese management to the degree needed to be legal under U.S. campaign finance laws.
That makes Toyota an unwitting example of an issue that has become a hot topic in Washington in recent days: foreign companies with U.S. subsidiaries and their involvement in U.S. elections. The Supreme Court ruled last month that U.S. corporations and unions can spend treasury money on election ads attacking federal candidates. Some Democrats including President Obama argue the ruling would let foreign corporations with U.S. subsidiaries sneak into U.S. election activities, and they plan legislation to close such a loophole.
02-08-10, 06:58 AM
#66
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That is a huge difference in terms of contributions from Toyota vs American automakers to govt candidates. Not surprising though in the least.
As I predicted, this witchhunt by the govt against Toyota is going to backfire on the administration. Toyota will be back even stronger, and it will surprise many just how quickly Toyota will be able to rebound.
As I predicted, this witchhunt by the govt against Toyota is going to backfire on the administration. Toyota will be back even stronger, and it will surprise many just how quickly Toyota will be able to rebound.
02-08-10, 07:16 AM
#67
Lexus Fanatic
Why is the government going to hold congressional hearings then on Toyota? Where are the congressional hearings for Ford, GM, Chrysler, or Honda? Each one of these competitors have various problems with their vehicles, some of the problems being quite serious.
The NHTSA cleared Toyota in most cases because there was no concrete or substantive evidence proving Toyota was at fault in most of these cases.
The only thing ridiculous here is that the media is reporting almost exclusively on Toyota's problems, and not on GM, Chrysler, Ford, or Honda problems. That and the fact that the government is exclusively focusing on Toyota.
The NHTSA cleared Toyota in most cases because there was no concrete or substantive evidence proving Toyota was at fault in most of these cases.
The only thing ridiculous here is that the media is reporting almost exclusively on Toyota's problems, and not on GM, Chrysler, Ford, or Honda problems. That and the fact that the government is exclusively focusing on Toyota.
02-08-10, 07:21 AM
#68
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You can't necessarily say that. The media has hit on many other auto companies besides Toyota. Notable examples include the Audi 5000 runaway-acceleration issue, the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire roll-over issue, side-mounted fuel tanks on Chevy/GMC pickup trucks, the Ford Pinto frame rail/fuel-tank issue, Ford automatic-transmission PARK linkages, the Mercedes electro-hydraulic brakes, Chevy Vega aluminum engines/body rust, Saturn electrical harnesses, the Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon Consumer Reports handling issue, the terrible GM X-body compacts, Pontiac Fiero engine fires, and the poor quality of the original Hyundai Excel. Even Honda was not immune...there was a well-publcized fender-rust issue on some 1 and 2-Gen Accords. So, for Toyota, it's simply welcome to the club.....although, of course, today, the Internet does tend to magnify things.
Also let's not forget that all Japanese automakers experienced some heavy bashing and criticism in the US during the 80s.
Also some of the previous cases that you mentioned never got as far as congressional hearings. Out of what you mentioned, I believe only a couple of them did, AFAIK.
02-08-10, 07:37 AM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
I competely agree with you, but that was then and this is now. In some of those previous cases there was a bit of a vested interest, for example with the Audi situation where the media famously fabricated evidence when none actually existed that Audis of the time had major problems.
If I'm wrong, and media tampering also happened with the Audi case, then fine..........I just didn't remember it that way.
02-08-10, 07:38 AM
#70
Since the examples you are using in the last few posts are dated examples, I am reposting this:
Here are some facts:
1)There were 128 unintended acceleration compaints to the NHTSA last year before the San Diego crash
2) There were 47 unintended aceleration complaints against Toyota. There were 36 unintended acceleration complaints across Ford.
3) The ratio of complaints against Toyota and Ford is almost proportional to their market shares.
Conclusion: This is logical derivation from the facts above folks - so don't argue with it: the probability you have an acceleration issue with a Ford is the same as with a Toyota.
So I think this is a clear case of bias.
And BTW to the chap who posted earlier that unintended acceleration is serious and must be pursued no matter how rare - by that criteria we should be pursuing Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM, Honda and Nissan.
Here are some facts:
1)There were 128 unintended acceleration compaints to the NHTSA last year before the San Diego crash
2) There were 47 unintended aceleration complaints against Toyota. There were 36 unintended acceleration complaints across Ford.
3) The ratio of complaints against Toyota and Ford is almost proportional to their market shares.
Conclusion: This is logical derivation from the facts above folks - so don't argue with it: the probability you have an acceleration issue with a Ford is the same as with a Toyota.
So I think this is a clear case of bias.
And BTW to the chap who posted earlier that unintended acceleration is serious and must be pursued no matter how rare - by that criteria we should be pursuing Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM, Honda and Nissan.
02-08-10, 07:53 AM
#71
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I think you may be confusing the Audi case with the GM truck side-mounted fuel-tank issue, where NBC's "Dateline" show admitted setting off and "exploding" the tanks themselves, to simulate what happens in a real crash.
If I'm wrong, and media tampering also happened with the Audi case, then fine..........I just didn't remember it that way.
If I'm wrong, and media tampering also happened with the Audi case, then fine..........I just didn't remember it that way.
http://www.audifans.com/archives/1998/07/msg02207.html
The NHTSA, along with other safety agencies in Canada and Japan found no clear evidence of a problem with Audi cars that could cause sudden acceleration.
In fact, looking at the details of the Audi situation, it is eerily similar to what Toyota is experiencing now in terms of there being no clear evidence yet plenty of blame and accusations being thrown at Toyota.
02-08-10, 08:11 AM
#72
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And let's not forget Toyota has far more money now than Audi did back then. They are a much bigger target and that is influencing the hysteria.
02-08-10, 08:31 AM
#73
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Good point, I agree. However, given Toyota's experience historically of dealing with lots of pressure, struggles, and problems as well as their resources, they will bounce back from this faster than Audi was able to. Since Audi was small back in the 80s, the situation then hurt them seriously and it took quite a few years for Audi to regain market share and their reputation.
02-08-10, 03:51 PM
#74
Lexus Champion
Since the examples you are using in the last few posts are dated examples, I am reposting this:
Here are some facts:
1)There were 128 unintended acceleration compaints to the NHTSA last year before the San Diego crash
2) There were 47 unintended aceleration complaints against Toyota. There were 36 unintended acceleration complaints across Ford.
3) The ratio of complaints against Toyota and Ford is almost proportional to their market shares.
Conclusion: This is logical derivation from the facts above folks - so don't argue with it: the probability you have an acceleration issue with a Ford is the same as with a Toyota.
So I think this is a clear case of bias.
And BTW to the chap who posted earlier that unintended acceleration is serious and must be pursued no matter how rare - by that criteria we should be pursuing Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM, Honda and Nissan.
Here are some facts:
1)There were 128 unintended acceleration compaints to the NHTSA last year before the San Diego crash
2) There were 47 unintended aceleration complaints against Toyota. There were 36 unintended acceleration complaints across Ford.
3) The ratio of complaints against Toyota and Ford is almost proportional to their market shares.
Conclusion: This is logical derivation from the facts above folks - so don't argue with it: the probability you have an acceleration issue with a Ford is the same as with a Toyota.
So I think this is a clear case of bias.
And BTW to the chap who posted earlier that unintended acceleration is serious and must be pursued no matter how rare - by that criteria we should be pursuing Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM, Honda and Nissan.
02-08-10, 05:36 PM
#75
The Green Goblin said it best. The people love to see the hero fall.
IMO, the circus around Toyota is due to the fact that these type of issues are not expected of Toyota. They ARE par for the course when it comes to GM/Ford and esp Chrysler.
The Politicians are jumping in... because its news. IE, steriods in baseball. Why do we need congressional hearings on that?
IMO, the circus around Toyota is due to the fact that these type of issues are not expected of Toyota. They ARE par for the course when it comes to GM/Ford and esp Chrysler.
The Politicians are jumping in... because its news. IE, steriods in baseball. Why do we need congressional hearings on that?