pagemaster

I am going to make a huge prediction.

With all this crazy talk about Toyota right now. Toyota is seriously suffering because of this gas pedal recall. It is my firm belief that Toyota is too big for itself right now and cannot keep up quality standards without sacrificing quality, this is the result of over capacity. Toyota is not designing and making cars to the level it once did.

Now, the gas pedal is not the result of cost cutting, it is the result of Toyota not following their standards which lead them to not fix the problem when it was first discovered, I strongly believe Toyota knew about the part a while back again and chose not to fix it.

Toyota needs to respond to the growing quality concerns....

I predict that some or all of following will happen in the next 12-18 months to restore a respectable level of efficiency, perception and profitablility.

1. Toyota will shut down and close the Texas manufacturing plant. More specifically, the Toyota Sequoia will be canceled. Toyota Tundra and Tacoma production will return to the Indiana plant.

2. One of the two Calty Design Research centres in North America will close. Most likely the California location.

3. Next gen Toyota Avalon will be put on hold for one extra year while Toyota makes changes to the design, notable interior improvements.

4. Toyota will make the unprecedented annoucement of its next gen Camry far ahead of schedule with press releases of its interior (a big improvement) to calm concerns about diminished quality.

5. Toyota will accelerate the production of the Toyota Prius in North America

6. Toyota will upgrade the current Corolla to a better interior design using better materials.

No Lexus changes will be made. There will be some layoffs consistent with plant closures

TRDFantasy

I am going to go out on a limb here and say you would be wise to stop making far-fetched predictions, and just wait and see what will happen.

It's obvious Toyota will improve quality on their models. We already know that.

pagemaster

Toyota's quality has been going down for the last 5 years.

It started back in 2005.

2007 Toyota Tundra had tailgate problems and cheap interiors
2007 Lexus ES has mirrors that need to be redesigned
2007 LS460 wind noise
2007 ES350 transmission flare
2009 Venza has some serious fit and finish problems
2010 Prius is made of some cheap plastics

The floormat problems, now the gas pedal problems

I just read the Prius may have bad brakes...

Most of these are design problems that were greenlighted were to cost cut...

What makes you think the next Toyota is going to be any better?


Toyota is way too big for their own good....they need to contract a bit

TRDFantasy

Do you expect a Rolls Royce interior in the Prius for 22K?

It might be "cheap plastic" to you, but the new Prius interior has great fit and finish, and a really nice design. It also has an incredible level of technology.

The Prius may not have an interior with incredibly high quality plastics, because it doesn't need to. The plastics are very durable and reliable, which is *exactly* what is needed for a mass-market car. High-maintenance, fragile, and expensive materials frankly are not really needed in mass market cars. Can the plastics be improved? Yes, of course. Will they be improved? Most likely they will be. Should all mainstream Toyota models have soft-touch and vinyl-like plastics? No.

Toyota models today, despite the use of hard plastics in areas, are still very well built for the most part. Compare this to vehicles like Land Rovers. They use great quality materials, but they often break down and are unreliable.

If you want to see the best of the best, to see what Toyota can do with no budget limits, no cost limits, and no compromises, just look at the LFA.

The main reason ALL automakers moved away from the softer plastics of the 1990s is because they released harmful gases and vapors into the interior which are dangerous to human health.

These new hard plastics which many label as "cheap plastics" are much more environmentally friendly, as well as friendlier to human health.

If you want soft-touch plastics, get a higher-end Toyota or a Lexus.

Toyota (and other automakers) have yet to fully figure out how to make durable, reliable, environmentally friendly, *and* healthy soft-touch plastics.

You get what you pay for. You cannot get something completely out of nothing.

All of you critics constantly complaining about "cheap plastics", get a clue. Comparable Toyota models in the 1990s were MORE expensive than Toyota models now.

I notice on a lot of forums that people always like to dream about how good Toyotas used to be in the 90s, well many of them were MORE expensive than Toyotas right now, adjusted for inflation. Back in 1995, a 4th gen Camry started at a base price of 15.3K, which adjusted to today is A LOT more than the 19K base price of the current Camry. In today's dollars, it would be over 21.5K base price. Yes, the 4th gen Camry in some ways was and is better than the current 7th gen, but you get what you pay for, and back in 1995 you had to pay the equivalent of thousands of dollars more than the base price of the Camry now.

If you do the calculations, then the base price of the current Camry now back in 1995 would have been 13.5K in terms of US dollars.

A base Corolla back in 1995 cost 12.4K. In today's dollars, that would be roughly 17.4K, quite a bit more expensive than the base price of the Corolla right now.

Given inflation over the past decade, and the greatly increased technology inside Toyotas it's incredible that Toyotas today still remain fairly durable and reliable given what they cost.

With Lexus, yes the quality in the past few years has not been the greatest, but Lexus is still one of, if not the best in terms of quality/reliability/durability out of any luxury brand overall.

I guess some of you expect perfection from Toyota, well you can continue expecting it for the rest of your life because it will never happen .

Toyota has had issues over the past few years, but yes quality *IS* improving. The Highlander and Venza have better interiors than the Camry, this is a fact. The new 4Runner has a better interior than the previous-gen 4Runner.

Should Toyota raise their prices and make higher-end cars? Maybe, but then Toyota models would eat into Lexus sales. This is a topic for another discussion altogether.

The 2010 ES has seen an interior improvement.

A lot of Toyota quality issues right now are still lingering on from decisions made by some of Toyota's management back in 2004-2007.

Since 2007, Toyota has been continually making changes to improve quality.

As I stated in another thread, we will not see the FULL effects of all these changes until 2012/2013 at the earliest. Toyota's mainstream models are currently on a 5/6 year redesign schedule.

With vehicles like the next-gen Camry, next-gen Corolla, next-gen Rav4; that is where we should see the real changes in terms of quality.

Also, we should see some quality improvements in the next-gen ES, next-gen IS, next-gen GS, and next-gen LS.

Has Toyota grown too fast? Yes they have, but they have slowed their growth down recently and are making more efficient use of their current resources, and also are refocusing on quality.

As I said, because many of these quality changes are big, and only started to take effect from 2007 onwards, their full effect will not be seen until 2012/2013 at the earliest.

spwolf

and main thing is - if Toyota knew about the issue long time ago, they would have fixed it in production... long time ago.

Fact that it was not fixed in production and there were no TSBs show that issue was not known.

There are million more expensive things being fixed on TSB's and in production in those vehicles. Fact that politicians, owners of GM/Chrysler, make ignorant statements thinking there is some magic wand to be wave around is just... ignorant.

flipside909

I think this is just another rant thread with your continuous discontent with Toyota and their products. If you're not happy with your Toyota vehicles, sell them and get something that will give you less stress.

rdgdawg

While I admire the rational of the post, I can say, bottom line, is that I would look at several different manufacturers in multiple segments... and then STILL compare them to Toyota before making a final decision.

With respect, I couldn't care less what factory it was built at... there are still maybe one or two American models I would choose over a Toyota even WITH the current problems, so as I voted in a previous post this issue will be overcome rather quickly

Knock the champ all you want, in the end, IMO opinion Toyota comes out a leaner, better, SAFER manufacturer... and WE, the consumer, will reap the benefits

flipside909

Do you own one? Your profile says you have 1997 Lexus ES300. You say you own a Tundra (in this post) Which is it?

Well on that note the 2006 ISx50 got revised mirrors which were smaller down the production line and turn signals were later added for 2009. The same applies to the ES, but they received a smaller set of door mirrors which eventually led to the addition of turnsignals for 2010.

Wind noise is apparent in all cars. Even more so with the LS as it has a very quiet interior, but disturbance of the aerodynamics can really change this. A very thin piece of clear bra added to a door mirror of an LS can drastically change aerodynamics and cause wind noise...despite the film only being a few mils in thickness. May seem harmless, but it can make a difference.

Toyota transmissions are becoming so smooth and refined that software programming can sometimes complicate such a simple basic task. Transmission ECM reflash is the way to correct it. There are TSIB's on this that dealers are fully aware of.

Depending on which blogs or publications you read, it's a mixed bag. Majority of the articles out there are written during a press event prior to the vehicle's official release. We all know fit and finish on pre-production cars are not going to be on par with production models. Toyota even puts this disclaimer in all of their pre production press vehicles to warn journalists of what's up...




In comparison to what? Do you actually have to cost for the price of the thermoplastics used to make the parts in a Prius? Do you own a Prius to make that qualification?


The floormats were NEVER an issue. It's not a design flaw of the car or the factory floor mats installed in the vehicle. If anything Toyota does a great job of securing the floormats with the hooks.

Gas pedal issues are stemming from a 3rd party supplier. The floor mats and gas pedal issues are 2 separate issues that are NOT related.


Do you believe everything you read? They are just reported problems by customers to Toyota. Guilty until proven innocent right? That's how the press has been portraying Toyota lately.


Do you have intrinsic and factual evidence to prove that other than the concerns you mentioned? Continuous improvement. Kaizen. The TPS (Toyota Production System). It's part of their operation. Problem solving and a quick solution is key here.

Toyota is in the business and plans to stay in the business in the long term. Kaizen and continuous improvement are part of their core philosophy. Toyota isn't just sitting at their desks waiting to fail and for the government to help bail them out. They are a very intelligent company and a very wealthy company at that. I'm pretty confident they will be able to redeem themselves...not necessarily in the short run, but in the long term. The glass is half full.


Toyota is only going grow bigger and better. They stop and drop what they're doing just because you said so.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

rather unnecessary rhetoric, but you made some other good points...

i think we need to separate ACTUAL quality from PERCEIVED quality.

actual quality is about defects and products not working as intended.

perceived quality is about how rare, expensive, rich, or complex people THINK the materials or methods used to make something are.

a vehicle can have GREAT actual quality and HORRIBLE perceived quality, and vice versa!

ford and gm in recent years have made progress in BOTH actual and perceived quality.

toyota's quality is still excellent but their perceived quality has been going down, mostly because of design/cost decisions leading to bland, dull, or 'cheap looking' interior and exterior designs. those vehicles though will likely run for a decade with little trouble.

that sounds about right. it's often the case that big companies make their biggest mistakes when they seem to be doing the best. during those years toyota could seemingly do no wrong, but one by one, we saw blunders with a lot of poor design, big bets placed like thinking they could smash the large truck market. of course they made winners too, like the prius.

the next gen Camry will be a 'tell' on what's really going on. toyota no doubt knows that gm and ford have stepped it up big time, not to mention wannabe's like hyundai.

i think that's right too. but they can potentially lose a lot of market share in that time. i predict toyota will turn to aggressive (and unprecedented for them) incentives soon to move cars to keep things moving until that time.

i don't know what you mean by 'they have slowed their growth' - do you mean their r&d plans are smaller or less ambitious? i highly doubt it. and projects like FT86 are ambitious and aggressive (and needed!).

again, these are perceived quality changes (nicer designs / materials). the DEFECT problems they've been suffering from are likely growth related and rushing certain things. anyone blaming the gas pedal defect on a 3rd party suppliier is missing the point, it's STILL toyota's fault.

TRDFantasy

For what it's worth, I read an extremely detailed review of a production Venza from a Canadian publication and they were mostly impressed with both the materials, and the fit and finish.

I've also briefly had time in a Venza and I thought material quality and fit and finish was pretty solid, certainly an improvement over the Camry.

TRDFantasy

I meant slowed their growth in terms of building new factories, or having profit and marketshare as the #1 priority. They have re-prioritized quality and fun-to-drive vehicles in the company as being very important.

Most other points I agree with.

LexFather

Quoted and saved......

What is funny is I don't know one Toyota owner complaining about their interior. It seems to be something the internetz makes fun of or disapproves of. Interiors are not the issue. Owners clearly know if the interior is lacking, they still buy the car for other reasons.

I much prefer the Camry have a dumbed down interior so the ES seems like a huge step up. That is the problem with Acura/Honda and Infiniti/Nissan, there is no obvious step up into the luxury brand. The Accord/Maxima are pretty much as good as what they offer.

So no offense to Toyota owners but the interiors to ME are fine.

mmarshall

I don't necessarily agree with all of pagemaster's comments (or of those rebuking him), but I do agree that Toyota has allowed the interior materials/trim and hardware of some of their vehicles to deteriorate too much....notably the Camry, RAV4, Tundra, and Sequoia. This, of course, is not the case, however, with all of their vehicles. But, those 4 vehicles, inside, don't impress me....their interior plastics and finish are down on a par with many Dodge/Chrysler and Mitsubishi products, which, in general, don't impress me either.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

You and I are on the same page with a lot of this "the sky is falling along with Toyota quality" stuff, but FWIW there is no real fix for the ES 350 transmission flare. Toyota/Lexus has never been able to fully explain or fix it on any of the affected models, so it has now been deemed "normal behavior" for the car.

I have been back and forth between dealers and corporate on the behalf of a family member and the only thing they will do is smile and tell you it's "normal" for your engine to rev up to 4500rpms when downshifting or slip during hard upshifts.

It's BS.

TRDFantasy

Someone somewhere at Toyota Japan must know why that occurs with the transmission. Maybe the engineers who built it know, or the software guys who wrote the code for it. Corporate is very unlikely to know the root cause of the problem.