Civic Hybrid Owners Sue Honda Over Mileage
12-15-09, 04:20 PM
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Civic Hybrid Owners Sue Honda Over Mileage
31mpg? Even the Camry Hybrid gets 36.7mpg according to the owners' reports at fueleconomy.gov. Wonder how these people drive the car.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...ileage-claims/
December 14, 2009, 4:08 PM
Civic Hybrid Owners Sue Honda Over Mileage
By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN
Update | 9:19 a.m.
Did you ever think you could sue an automaker if your car doesn’t get the stated gas mileage?
That’s what owners of 2003-8 model Honda Civic Hybrids did. The plaintiffs, in a class-action lawsuit filed in the United States District Court for the Central District of California in 2007, contend they are getting only 31 miles per gallon, instead of the stated 49 in the city and 51 on the highway. A settlement proposal is due for final approval next month — more on that in a bit.
The suit names two plaintiffs — John True of Ontario, Calif., and Gonzalo Delgado of Chino Hills, Calif. — and includes 120,000 Civic Hybrid owners. They argue that Honda advertising led them to believe the Civic Hybrid would get much better fuel economy than is likely in real-world driving. The suit stresses it is not challenging the methodology used by the Environmental Protection Agency to predict mileage but says Honda deceived consumers by not making it clear that they were unlikely to achieve the agency’s figures.
While the suit refers to mileage estimates of 49/51 miles per gallon, the Civic Hybrid estimates have changed. Starting with the 2008 model year, the E.P.A. revised its fuel-economy calculations for all vehicles in an effort to make the estimates more realistic. The 2008-10 Civic Hybrids are rated at 40 miles per gallon in the city and 45 on the highway.
Honda says the accusations are illogical. It has relied on figures calculated by the E.P.A., and it has followed all federal regulations, the company says. Even though it does not admit to any wrongdoing, Honda agreed to a settlement.
While the two primary plaintiffs, Mr. True and Mr. Delgado, are proposed to receive $12,500 and $10,000, respectively, the remaining participants in the suit would get at most a coupon for $1,000 off a new Honda. The offer does not include the automaker’s most fuel-efficient models, like the Insight, Civic Hybrid and Fit, or any used, certified Honda or Acura. Moreover, the coupon is not transferable, and the current hybrid must be sold or traded-in.
There are two other options: A $500 discount for a consumer who doesn’t want to sell his Civic Hybrid (and it cannot be used for the Insight, Civic Hybrid or Fit). This offer can be transferred to immediate family.
Consumers who do not wish to buy a new Honda and can prove they complained to Honda about disappointing fuel economy will receive $100. A DVD on obtaining better fuel economy is also included in the settlement proposal.
Some groups say that is a lousy deal.
“The purchaser of a Honda Civic Hybrid is a person who is interested in fuel economy,” said Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a consumer advocacy group that opposes the settlement. “So, the settlement allows them to buy any vehicle but a fuel-efficient vehicle. In other words, you get a coupon for the purchase of a vehicle that you don’t want.”
Another opponent is Greg Abbott, the Texas attorney general. In a court filing, he argues that consumers get “very minimal relief” and the real winner is Honda because it will sell more cars.
Late Monday the attorneys general of 25 other states joined Texas in asking the judge to reject the settlement.
Mr. Ditlow says that when automakers have settled class-actions in other cases with such coupon settlements few consumers used them.
But the settlement proposal isn’t bad for everyone, says Mr. Abbott. The lawyers for the plaintiffs are expected to receive $2.95 million. He says the lawyers are getting too much money for a settlement that does so little for consumers. He notes that the lawyers will be paid “in actual money” and not coupons good for discounts on Honda vehicles.
One of those lawyers for the plaintiffs, Jonathan W. Cuneo, said the payment to the lawyers did not even cover time or expenses, while the settlement “provides a valuable benefit for all members of the class.”
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...ileage-claims/
December 14, 2009, 4:08 PM
Civic Hybrid Owners Sue Honda Over Mileage
By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN
Update | 9:19 a.m.
Did you ever think you could sue an automaker if your car doesn’t get the stated gas mileage?
That’s what owners of 2003-8 model Honda Civic Hybrids did. The plaintiffs, in a class-action lawsuit filed in the United States District Court for the Central District of California in 2007, contend they are getting only 31 miles per gallon, instead of the stated 49 in the city and 51 on the highway. A settlement proposal is due for final approval next month — more on that in a bit.
The suit names two plaintiffs — John True of Ontario, Calif., and Gonzalo Delgado of Chino Hills, Calif. — and includes 120,000 Civic Hybrid owners. They argue that Honda advertising led them to believe the Civic Hybrid would get much better fuel economy than is likely in real-world driving. The suit stresses it is not challenging the methodology used by the Environmental Protection Agency to predict mileage but says Honda deceived consumers by not making it clear that they were unlikely to achieve the agency’s figures.
While the suit refers to mileage estimates of 49/51 miles per gallon, the Civic Hybrid estimates have changed. Starting with the 2008 model year, the E.P.A. revised its fuel-economy calculations for all vehicles in an effort to make the estimates more realistic. The 2008-10 Civic Hybrids are rated at 40 miles per gallon in the city and 45 on the highway.
Honda says the accusations are illogical. It has relied on figures calculated by the E.P.A., and it has followed all federal regulations, the company says. Even though it does not admit to any wrongdoing, Honda agreed to a settlement.
While the two primary plaintiffs, Mr. True and Mr. Delgado, are proposed to receive $12,500 and $10,000, respectively, the remaining participants in the suit would get at most a coupon for $1,000 off a new Honda. The offer does not include the automaker’s most fuel-efficient models, like the Insight, Civic Hybrid and Fit, or any used, certified Honda or Acura. Moreover, the coupon is not transferable, and the current hybrid must be sold or traded-in.
There are two other options: A $500 discount for a consumer who doesn’t want to sell his Civic Hybrid (and it cannot be used for the Insight, Civic Hybrid or Fit). This offer can be transferred to immediate family.
Consumers who do not wish to buy a new Honda and can prove they complained to Honda about disappointing fuel economy will receive $100. A DVD on obtaining better fuel economy is also included in the settlement proposal.
Some groups say that is a lousy deal.
“The purchaser of a Honda Civic Hybrid is a person who is interested in fuel economy,” said Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a consumer advocacy group that opposes the settlement. “So, the settlement allows them to buy any vehicle but a fuel-efficient vehicle. In other words, you get a coupon for the purchase of a vehicle that you don’t want.”
Another opponent is Greg Abbott, the Texas attorney general. In a court filing, he argues that consumers get “very minimal relief” and the real winner is Honda because it will sell more cars.
Late Monday the attorneys general of 25 other states joined Texas in asking the judge to reject the settlement.
Mr. Ditlow says that when automakers have settled class-actions in other cases with such coupon settlements few consumers used them.
But the settlement proposal isn’t bad for everyone, says Mr. Abbott. The lawyers for the plaintiffs are expected to receive $2.95 million. He says the lawyers are getting too much money for a settlement that does so little for consumers. He notes that the lawyers will be paid “in actual money” and not coupons good for discounts on Honda vehicles.
One of those lawyers for the plaintiffs, Jonathan W. Cuneo, said the payment to the lawyers did not even cover time or expenses, while the settlement “provides a valuable benefit for all members of the class.”
12-15-09, 04:53 PM
#3
What a ridiculous lawsuit. EPA numbers do not guarantee anything whether you buy a Honda, Toyota, or Ford.
Maybe they should blast the EPA instead because it's not like Honda came up with those numbers themselves.
The suit stresses it is not challenging the methodology used by the Environmental Protection Agency to predict mileage but says Honda deceived consumers by not making it clear that they were unlikely to achieve the agency’s figures.
Maybe they should blast the EPA instead because it's not like Honda came up with those numbers themselves.
12-15-09, 06:03 PM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
I dont think it rIdiculous at all. I think that if Honda claims a certain mpg than the car should not be below that by 40%. I am happy to see law suits like this because it will make the manufacturers stay more honest about mpg. We all know that the cars on the market never get the same mpg as listed on the window sticker but not 40% below the advertised value.
This thing reminds me of the owners who filed a law suit against Mazda when they started dynoing their new RX8s before they start tuning and found that the car were producing barely 230 hp not the 260 that was initially advertised. In then end Mazda had to agree to buy back any car that was sold if the owner wanted to do that. Bottom line I am tired of being lied to as a consumer and I think that the companies that manufacture cars need to be aware that things like this will not be passed up,
I bet the GM guys are happy right now
This thing reminds me of the owners who filed a law suit against Mazda when they started dynoing their new RX8s before they start tuning and found that the car were producing barely 230 hp not the 260 that was initially advertised. In then end Mazda had to agree to buy back any car that was sold if the owner wanted to do that. Bottom line I am tired of being lied to as a consumer and I think that the companies that manufacture cars need to be aware that things like this will not be passed up,
I bet the GM guys are happy right now
12-15-09, 06:20 PM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
Also, how often does this couple (and the other Civic Hybrid owners) even bother to check their tire pressure? Most of the plaintiffs in this class-action suit appear to have older models that do not have the newly-mandated on-board PSI indicators (some PSI indicators give you the actual readout; others just do it by comparing one tire RPM to another). How much extra junk do they carry around in their trunk?.......weight is the enemy of gas mileage. Do they drive in hilly areas, requiring more power and frequent battery-pack recharges by the gas engine? Do they keep the oil and filter changed so that the gas engine gets decent lubrication? Do they drive at moderate speeds? In SoCal where they live, traffic is often at a crawl or a standstill......just here in the D.C. area. That, of course, uses gas....although, granted, at complete stop, the gas engine shuts off.
So, my point is that there are MANY valid reasons why they may not be getting 40 or 45 MPG. I hope that the judge or jury (if it gets that far) has enough sense to think of these things before they come to a verdict.
12-15-09, 07:55 PM
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I dont think it ridiculous at all. I think that if Honda claims a certain mpg than the car should not be below that by 40%. I am happy to see law suits like this because it will make the manufacturers stay more honest about mpg. We all know that the cars on the market never get the same mpg as listed on the window sticker but not 40% below the advertised value.
People really need to learn one simple thing about EPA mileage ESTIMATES. They are 100% determined by the government!!!! The automaker has nothing to do with the estimates stated on the window sticker.
The automaker has every right to then advertise based on these figures. They never advertise they own estimates.
If anything, they should sue the government. But we all know we can't do that!
So how much clearer do these window stickers have to be? They boldly state that actual mileage WILL vary based on many different variables.
I also find the mileage claim of this group of people hard to believe. Regular Civics are well documented to surpass 31 mpg. Surely the hybrid couldn't be worse than the regular one.
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12-15-09, 08:15 PM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
I was thinking the same thing. Money for nothing.
I guess I was wrong. I thought the mpg estimates were set by the manufacturer but verified by the EPA.
I guess I was wrong. I thought the mpg estimates were set by the manufacturer but verified by the EPA.
12-16-09, 01:31 AM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
Not surprised with the low mileage. Most Civic hybrids and Pri-i I see are first off the light and humming along at 80 in the carpool lane. Zippidy!
12-16-09, 05:31 AM
#11
Pole Position
Originally Posted by wheels.blogs;
The suit stresses it is not challenging the methodology used by the Environmental Protection Agency to predict mileage but says Honda deceived consumers by not making it clear that they were unlikely to achieve the agency’s figures.
12-16-09, 05:32 AM
#12
People really need to learn one simple thing about EPA mileage ESTIMATES. They are 100% determined by the government!!!! The automaker has nothing to do with the estimates stated on the window sticker.
The automaker has every right to then advertise based on these figures. They never advertise they own estimates.
If anything, they should sue the government. But we all know we can't do that!
So how much clearer do these window stickers have to be? They boldly state that actual mileage WILL vary based on many different variables.
I also find the mileage claim of this group of people hard to believe. Regular Civics are well documented to surpass 31 mpg. Surely the hybrid couldn't be worse than the regular one.
... as to the Civic numbers, every cars mpg depends on where and how you drive it. As Civic is not full hybrid, it is a bit more influenced by heavy foot ;-).
12-16-09, 05:44 AM
#13
Super Moderator
I can't agree with your viewpoint here. EPA does the official mileage tests for the window sticker, not the manufacturers. What's more, a sensible driver with a light foot can often get MORE than the EPA numbers (on the highway, I do myself).
Also, how often does this couple (and the other Civic Hybrid owners) even bother to check their tire pressure? Most of the plaintiffs in this class-action suit appear to have older models that do not have the newly-mandated on-board PSI indicators (some PSI indicators give you the actual readout; others just do it by comparing one tire RPM to another). How much extra junk do they carry around in their trunk?.......weight is the enemy of gas mileage. Do they drive in hilly areas, requiring more power and frequent battery-pack recharges by the gas engine? Do they keep the oil and filter changed so that the gas engine gets decent lubrication? Do they drive at moderate speeds? In SoCal where they live, traffic is often at a crawl or a standstill......just here in the D.C. area. That, of course, uses gas....although, granted, at complete stop, the gas engine shuts off.
So, my point is that there are MANY valid reasons why they may not be getting 40 or 45 MPG. I hope that the judge or jury (if it gets that far) has enough sense to think of these things before they come to a verdict.
Also, how often does this couple (and the other Civic Hybrid owners) even bother to check their tire pressure? Most of the plaintiffs in this class-action suit appear to have older models that do not have the newly-mandated on-board PSI indicators (some PSI indicators give you the actual readout; others just do it by comparing one tire RPM to another). How much extra junk do they carry around in their trunk?.......weight is the enemy of gas mileage. Do they drive in hilly areas, requiring more power and frequent battery-pack recharges by the gas engine? Do they keep the oil and filter changed so that the gas engine gets decent lubrication? Do they drive at moderate speeds? In SoCal where they live, traffic is often at a crawl or a standstill......just here in the D.C. area. That, of course, uses gas....although, granted, at complete stop, the gas engine shuts off.
So, my point is that there are MANY valid reasons why they may not be getting 40 or 45 MPG. I hope that the judge or jury (if it gets that far) has enough sense to think of these things before they come to a verdict.
Have to agree with many of your points here. I know a good plenty of people here in Miami (and still know some back in DC) who complain about mileage with their vehicles and often when I'll check their vehicles out for them, just as you stated, low tire pressure, junk in the vehicle, old oil, etc. Some even know that they have not taken care of the vehicle, but would like to know what to do, so that helps when people admit this.
I've been checking my 99 RX300AWD diligently on mpg and it regularly goes 19+ mpg for a vehicle that had 17 city/22 highway. That's not bad at all for a vehicle that is regularly on city streets 90% of the time and over 10 years old, but I take care of the vehicle. A mechanic I've known nearby hears similar complaints about mpg, but then takes a look at the vehicle and notices issues that should have been addressed with routine maintenance, some not even costing that much at all and could have been DIY.
12-16-09, 06:06 AM
#14
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Actualy mileage may vary.
What is a crime is what the Civic hybrid costs. A mild hybrid shouldn't command a $6k premium. IIRC the Malibu hybrid is something like $1200 more than the base. Now that is reasonable.
What is a crime is what the Civic hybrid costs. A mild hybrid shouldn't command a $6k premium. IIRC the Malibu hybrid is something like $1200 more than the base. Now that is reasonable.
12-16-09, 06:39 AM
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We are in a sue happy country, so this comes at as a no suprise.
I think if we mandate that if you lose the case, you are liable for all lawyers fees on both side, that should drop the amount of lawsuits significantly.
I think if we mandate that if you lose the case, you are liable for all lawyers fees on both side, that should drop the amount of lawsuits significantly.
