GSF on hold ( again ) , but the 4GS is in the mail
12-06-09, 09:07 AM
#31
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It's also not just about the overall hp # and the hp wars, it's also about the weight of the car and the materials used, as some of the reviews for the new M have alluded to.
That's possible, but the original LS 400 V8 cost $500 million in 1980s money, which is several billion today, and went in thousands of cars.
Still I'd like to see the LFA V10, or some related version, be used for the GS-F, provided that it can meet efficiency and environmental targets--if not, V8 then...or something creative.
That's possible, but the original LS 400 V8 cost $500 million in 1980s money, which is several billion today, and went in thousands of cars.
Still I'd like to see the LFA V10, or some related version, be used for the GS-F, provided that it can meet efficiency and environmental targets--if not, V8 then...or something creative.
A GS F would be awesome, but as most have said, anything less than 500hp, don't bother. Supercharging the 5.0? Maybe that's an option. I'd settle for that if we couldn't get the LFA motor. I still think if they make changes to it, it would be more than viable to put in the GS F (and give it a character more suitable to that of a Sedan as well). Loose the titanium internals and possibly make the displacement a littler larger..5.0 perhaps, give it a wet sump, engineer in direct injection and you have an engine you could use in the GS F, SC F and sell to lotus for their Esprit.
The GS really does need to stand out and if Lexus do their homework, they can totally knock it out of the park. As I've said a million times before though, I'm not sure they want to
12-06-09, 09:12 AM
#32
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If Toyota is worried about their CAFE average then they should be pairing their hybrid with a smaller more efficient engine and offering RX, GS, ES350hs, etc. If an RX450h can be rated a 28 Hwy I can only imagine what a smaller, direct injected engine could do. I think many would be content with an RX hybrid with fewer horses. Highlander too.
12-06-09, 09:54 AM
#33
Agreed and Agreed. I do believe however that the GS V8 does indeed need ~400hp to compete in the sector. Not necessarily much more than 400, but lets face it, horsepower still does sell cars. What it needs to do, is KEEP WEIGHT GAIN TO A MINIMUM... if possible, loose weight even. This will take car of any fuel economy qualms. With the ES pretty much as big, please make it sport oriented, with great dynamic capabilities and most importantly GOOD LOOKING! I love the looks of the current GS, please don't make it uglier.
A GS F would be awesome, but as most have said, anything less than 500hp, don't bother. Supercharging the 5.0? Maybe that's an option. I'd settle for that if we couldn't get the LFA motor. I still think if they make changes to it, it would be more than viable to put in the GS F (and give it a character more suitable to that of a Sedan as well). Loose the titanium internals and possibly make the displacement a littler larger..5.0 perhaps, give it a wet sump, engineer in direct injection and you have an engine you could use in the GS F, SC F and sell to lotus for their Esprit.
The GS really does need to stand out and if Lexus do their homework, they can totally knock it out of the park. As I've said a million times before though, I'm not sure they want to
A GS F would be awesome, but as most have said, anything less than 500hp, don't bother. Supercharging the 5.0? Maybe that's an option. I'd settle for that if we couldn't get the LFA motor. I still think if they make changes to it, it would be more than viable to put in the GS F (and give it a character more suitable to that of a Sedan as well). Loose the titanium internals and possibly make the displacement a littler larger..5.0 perhaps, give it a wet sump, engineer in direct injection and you have an engine you could use in the GS F, SC F and sell to lotus for their Esprit.
The GS really does need to stand out and if Lexus do their homework, they can totally knock it out of the park. As I've said a million times before though, I'm not sure they want to
12-06-09, 09:56 AM
#34
If Toyota is worried about their CAFE average then they should be pairing their hybrid with a smaller more efficient engine and offering RX, GS, ES350hs, etc. If an RX450h can be rated a 28 Hwy I can only imagine what a smaller, direct injected engine could do. I think many would be content with an RX hybrid with fewer horses. Highlander too.
12-06-09, 10:05 AM
#35
Super Moderator
The GS line as a whole is not DESIRABLE enough, you need a halo version to give it a DESIRABLE image so as to improve the public's perception of the whole GS line, and that will gradually help improve the sales of the entire GS line if they implement it successfully.
12-06-09, 10:18 AM
#36
Lexus Champion
There's just no way the LF-A V10 will find its' way into the GS.
Dry sump, 9200 rpm, mild torque numbers - it's really not that great for a 4,000 lb sedan anyway. And why would Lexus/Toyota dilute the exclusivity of the V10? The LF-A is a halo car, after all. One that Lexus needs, in my opinion.
Frankly, I'd be happy with the IS-F 5.0 liter in the GS. The IS-F hasn't exactly set any sales records; it's great for the image, but surely a costly car for Lexus in terms of development and marketing costs. Mostly it was done for the good of the lexus branding and image - I doubt it was much of a profit center for them.
With rising fuel prices and a slow economy, these big horsepower sedans are dying a slow death. If a version of a V10 found its' way into any car, it should be Lexus flagship sedan, the LS with the long-wheelbase. It would need additional torque and a lower redline - and its' already smaller displacement than the 5.0 liter IS-F engine. It just doesn't make sense... the bean counters will never let it happen, and I doubt the engineers are crazy about the idea, either.
Dry sump, 9200 rpm, mild torque numbers - it's really not that great for a 4,000 lb sedan anyway. And why would Lexus/Toyota dilute the exclusivity of the V10? The LF-A is a halo car, after all. One that Lexus needs, in my opinion.
Frankly, I'd be happy with the IS-F 5.0 liter in the GS. The IS-F hasn't exactly set any sales records; it's great for the image, but surely a costly car for Lexus in terms of development and marketing costs. Mostly it was done for the good of the lexus branding and image - I doubt it was much of a profit center for them.
With rising fuel prices and a slow economy, these big horsepower sedans are dying a slow death. If a version of a V10 found its' way into any car, it should be Lexus flagship sedan, the LS with the long-wheelbase. It would need additional torque and a lower redline - and its' already smaller displacement than the 5.0 liter IS-F engine. It just doesn't make sense... the bean counters will never let it happen, and I doubt the engineers are crazy about the idea, either.
12-06-09, 10:27 AM
#37
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That would mean a regular GS500(we may actually get another GS460 for the 4GS to start
) barely able to compete with the new E550, next BMW 550i and the Infiniti M56, it's a far cry from what a new GS-F needs to be.
No GS-F and I don't see any realistic chance of the 4GS gaining any significance in both the Lexus line-up as well as the mid-size luxury sedan market. It will likely just remain yet another mediocre entry.
High power sedan has ALWAYS been for image purpose for the ENTIRE line OVER THE LONG TERM, not for their own sales volume ... they can't DIE if they have never been ALIVE in terms of their own sales number in the first place ...
) barely able to compete with the new E550, next BMW 550i and the Infiniti M56, it's a far cry from what a new GS-F needs to be. No GS-F and I don't see any realistic chance of the 4GS gaining any significance in both the Lexus line-up as well as the mid-size luxury sedan market. It will likely just remain yet another mediocre entry.
High power sedan has ALWAYS been for image purpose for the ENTIRE line OVER THE LONG TERM, not for their own sales volume ... they can't DIE if they have never been ALIVE in terms of their own sales number in the first place ...
Last edited by Gojirra99; 12-06-09 at 10:31 AM.
12-06-09, 10:29 AM
#39
That would mean a regular GS500(we may actually get another GS460 for the 4GS to start) barely able to compete with the new E550, next BMW 550i and the Infiniti M56, it's a far cry from what a new GS-F needs to be.
No GS-F and I don't see any realistic chance of the 4GS gaining any significance in both the Lexus line-up as well as the mid-size luxury sedan market. It will likely just remain yet another mediocre entry.
High power sedan has ALWAYS been for image purpose for the ENTIRE line OVER THE LONG TERM, not for their own sales volume ... they can't DIE if they have never been ALIVE in terms of their own sales number in the first place ...
) barely able to compete with the new E550, next BMW 550i and the Infiniti M56, it's a far cry from what a new GS-F needs to be.No GS-F and I don't see any realistic chance of the 4GS gaining any significance in both the Lexus line-up as well as the mid-size luxury sedan market. It will likely just remain yet another mediocre entry.
High power sedan has ALWAYS been for image purpose for the ENTIRE line OVER THE LONG TERM, not for their own sales volume ... they can't DIE if they have never been ALIVE in terms of their own sales number in the first place ...
Last edited by Gojirra99; 12-06-09 at 10:33 AM. Reason: add missing addition paragraph in quote LOL
12-06-09, 11:02 AM
#40
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Yeah people want V-8s.....its still a market...
Good comments in here and I think we all agree a GS-F needs to be a part of the lineup next go round!
Good comments in here and I think we all agree a GS-F needs to be a part of the lineup next go round!
12-06-09, 12:06 PM
#41
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with the state of the economy, toyota's losses, and the niche nature of the gs, i hope i'm wrong but i don't see a gs-f happening any time soon.
as for the gs model, it's always been lexus 'style' sedan with some unique features, but the 3gs really wasn't very bold except for the 450h. by the way, the orlando dealer has a tv ad offering TEN THOUSAND off '09 450h's.
so i believe the 4gs needs to be BOLD in style and features. it can even be controversial, stir it up. i DON'T believe it needs 500hp. it can be bold in many ways, including EFFICIENCY, and most of all, style.
about efficiency, if lexus did a hybrid 4gs with lithium ion that didn't eat lots of trunk space, gave GREAT mpg, and was very stylish, and not off the wall expensive, it would be at least a PR win.
but the one thing it should not be is BLAND.
the 3gs stock suspension is actually quite a bit better than the 2gs was, and the 4gs can step it up again, with a real active supension, not just damper settings.
as for the gs model, it's always been lexus 'style' sedan with some unique features, but the 3gs really wasn't very bold except for the 450h. by the way, the orlando dealer has a tv ad offering TEN THOUSAND off '09 450h's.
so i believe the 4gs needs to be BOLD in style and features. it can even be controversial, stir it up. i DON'T believe it needs 500hp. it can be bold in many ways, including EFFICIENCY, and most of all, style.
about efficiency, if lexus did a hybrid 4gs with lithium ion that didn't eat lots of trunk space, gave GREAT mpg, and was very stylish, and not off the wall expensive, it would be at least a PR win.
but the one thing it should not be is BLAND.
the 3gs stock suspension is actually quite a bit better than the 2gs was, and the 4gs can step it up again, with a real active supension, not just damper settings.
12-06-09, 12:07 PM
#42
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There's just no way the LF-A V10 will find its' way into the GS.
Dry sump, 9200 rpm, mild torque numbers - it's really not that great for a 4,000 lb sedan anyway. And why would Lexus/Toyota dilute the exclusivity of the V10? The LF-A is a halo car, after all. One that Lexus needs, in my opinion.
Frankly, I'd be happy with the IS-F 5.0 liter in the GS. The IS-F hasn't exactly set any sales records; it's great for the image, but surely a costly car for Lexus in terms of development and marketing costs. Mostly it was done for the good of the lexus branding and image - I doubt it was much of a profit center for them.
With rising fuel prices and a slow economy, these big horsepower sedans are dying a slow death. If a version of a V10 found its' way into any car, it should be Lexus flagship sedan, the LS with the long-wheelbase. It would need additional torque and a lower redline - and its' already smaller displacement than the 5.0 liter IS-F engine. It just doesn't make sense... the bean counters will never let it happen, and I doubt the engineers are crazy about the idea, either.
Dry sump, 9200 rpm, mild torque numbers - it's really not that great for a 4,000 lb sedan anyway. And why would Lexus/Toyota dilute the exclusivity of the V10? The LF-A is a halo car, after all. One that Lexus needs, in my opinion.
Frankly, I'd be happy with the IS-F 5.0 liter in the GS. The IS-F hasn't exactly set any sales records; it's great for the image, but surely a costly car for Lexus in terms of development and marketing costs. Mostly it was done for the good of the lexus branding and image - I doubt it was much of a profit center for them.
With rising fuel prices and a slow economy, these big horsepower sedans are dying a slow death. If a version of a V10 found its' way into any car, it should be Lexus flagship sedan, the LS with the long-wheelbase. It would need additional torque and a lower redline - and its' already smaller displacement than the 5.0 liter IS-F engine. It just doesn't make sense... the bean counters will never let it happen, and I doubt the engineers are crazy about the idea, either.
12-06-09, 12:09 PM
#43
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Hopefully a twin-turbo 5.0L will go into the GS F. I don't see any other possibility. I'm sure the price will be staggering, but if it's cheaper than an M5 and E63 AMG, I will be satisfied.
12-06-09, 12:43 PM
#44
None of us really knows what Lexus is going to do and I rarely believe any of the prognostications the mags make.
I do HOPE the LFA power and tech makes its way into the GS....albeit a detuned version.
I wouldn't worry about upsetting LFA owners since it takes more than an engine to have a supercar. I won't name those attributes necause everyone here understands the point. Mercedes cross-shops their engines and I believe the different model owners have no complaints. SO it may not be the LFA engine that makes it down but similar tech and high power.
I don't believe Lexus will ever create a true F division either....but I hope they take the F technologies and pass them down to their sportier models. Even a detuned LFA type engine would make me swoon....at least the ISF engine. Let's start there.
I do HOPE the LFA power and tech makes its way into the GS....albeit a detuned version.
I wouldn't worry about upsetting LFA owners since it takes more than an engine to have a supercar. I won't name those attributes necause everyone here understands the point. Mercedes cross-shops their engines and I believe the different model owners have no complaints. SO it may not be the LFA engine that makes it down but similar tech and high power.
I don't believe Lexus will ever create a true F division either....but I hope they take the F technologies and pass them down to their sportier models. Even a detuned LFA type engine would make me swoon....at least the ISF engine. Let's start there.
Last edited by Ice350; 12-06-09 at 12:48 PM.
12-06-09, 01:03 PM
#45
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first of all, isnt new GS coming next year? ;-). I doubt they will wait until 2011...
... then you guys overvalue importance of GS-F for GS sales and importance of sporty drive. Reason GS sold as it did is that car is not packaged right. You can not carry 4 people in GS, simple as that. What will sell GS is competitive V6 and Hybrid package... GS-F is for glory and taking the brand upmarket. There will be so small amounts of GS-F's sold that it trully does not matter for CAFE averages.
And I would not be suprised... at all, if GS-F is hybrid... Lithium batteries are here, they can make GSh lighter, faster and more efficient at the same time.
... then you guys overvalue importance of GS-F for GS sales and importance of sporty drive. Reason GS sold as it did is that car is not packaged right. You can not carry 4 people in GS, simple as that. What will sell GS is competitive V6 and Hybrid package... GS-F is for glory and taking the brand upmarket. There will be so small amounts of GS-F's sold that it trully does not matter for CAFE averages.
And I would not be suprised... at all, if GS-F is hybrid... Lithium batteries are here, they can make GSh lighter, faster and more efficient at the same time.