GSF on hold ( again ) , but the 4GS is in the mail
12-05-09, 09:20 PM
#16
Hmmm If they decide not to make a GSF, then they might as well cancel the 4GS, remove it from the lineup. And instead, focus on ES and IS. GS is weak compared to other brands now, without a GSF it will remain to be weak for another 6 - 7 years. Don't see the point....
12-05-09, 09:25 PM
#17
One area that the MT info probably is correct on is the concern of fuel economy and emissions. With the M5 moving from a V10 to TT V8, for Lexus to continue to maintain its power w/ efficiency emphasis (e.g. the IS-F not a gas guzzler unlike the C63 and M3), they will definitely be considering a V8 to begin with. It's also partly why there was no V12 LS 600, even though they are capable of building V12s--they went for a V8 hybrid instead.
As for the M56, I'm not that surprised that Nissan has fielded a large engine, it goes all the way back to the Q45 where it too was a much larger engine than the LS 400's. However, for that case, the lighter LS 400 had faster acceleration times. With the 4GS, I do agree that it needs to have competitive hp, but arguments that it must be at the top of the charts for hp or it will not succeed are overstating it a bit.
Additionally, there is the new Mercedes E350 V6 example, its carryover engine with 268 hp is where most sales are made, and that is outmatched by older cars such as the 3GS; that being said, the E550 has 382 and the E63 has 507, lest I forget that MB is one of the key players in the hp wars.
As for the M56, I'm not that surprised that Nissan has fielded a large engine, it goes all the way back to the Q45 where it too was a much larger engine than the LS 400's. However, for that case, the lighter LS 400 had faster acceleration times. With the 4GS, I do agree that it needs to have competitive hp, but arguments that it must be at the top of the charts for hp or it will not succeed are overstating it a bit.
Additionally, there is the new Mercedes E350 V6 example, its carryover engine with 268 hp is where most sales are made, and that is outmatched by older cars such as the 3GS; that being said, the E550 has 382 and the E63 has 507, lest I forget that MB is one of the key players in the hp wars.
12-05-09, 09:25 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
. The V-10 pissing match with the Germans was their pissing match. Hell the RS6 has a V-10 twin turbo! In contrast the LFA has a V-10 solely b/c of F1...that was why it was chosen (though they use V-8s now).
To me the V-10 in the LFA was never meant to be in other vehicles. While it shares the same number of valves as the BMWs and Audis it just wasn't meant to be shared. This is how I feel AFTER reading about the car. A lot of us felt the V-10 (I did it) would make sense to use in a GS-F/LS-F etc b/c the Germans were doing it.
Is this a bad move? Possibly.
hey Mike I am aware that hp is not the whole story but it does represent a bar or new standard. Wether you want to think so or not but the engine thing is usually a huge source of competition between manufacturers. I am not saying that the M will be faster than an ISF but it will raise the bar in its class , and the GS will need to jump to catch up. They did with the IS and the G35. They did it with the GS300 to the 350 because the M35 had 280. They play in the HP wars like the rest. I think you are a little Lexus biased. Or at least more than me. 
Or at least more than me. Lexus did not add the GS 350 in response to Infiniti at all. Lexus stated years ago that they will be updating engines in their vehicles more often instead of keeping the same engines for years and years. Thus all the engine changes we have seen in the GS and other models.
12-05-09, 09:27 PM
#19
However, the 4GS needs to live. It needs to live as a competitor to other brands, but not necessarily be the benchmark like it was in 1998 (see Mike's post).
The 4GS does not need to be smaller/bigger, nor does it need to have a V10. However, it does need to have a sportier and faster edge compared to the current model. The V6 is great with 300+hp. The V8 needs to have around 400+hp to compete.
Does it need a GS-F? I don't think so. Yes, it would be great to have one to compete with the M5 or CTS-V, but ultimately, it isn't profitable, nor will it help with meeting CAFE standards by 2016.
12-05-09, 09:34 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I have no idea...but the V-10 in the M5/M6 is clearly sold in higher numbers (I wish I knew how many) than 500....probably a few thousand. Same with the S8 (We are in two threads). The V-10 pissing match with the Germans was their pissing match. Hell the RS6 has a V-10 twin turbo!
In contrast the LFA has a V-10 solely b/c of F1...that was why it was chosen (though they use V-8s now).
To me the V-10 in the LFA was never meant to be in other vehicles. While it shares the same number of valves as the BMWs and Audis it just wasn't meant to be shared. This is how I feel AFTER reading about the car. A lot of us felt the V-10 (I did it) would make sense to use in a GS-F/LS-F etc b/c the Germans were doing it.
Is this a bad move? Possibly.
To be honest I doubt the M56 will be faster than the 400hp Twin turbo 550. We shall see and its pretty cool for them both to have that much power. There is no doubt INfiniti having a 420hp V-8 is a big move and is getting some people talking.
Lexus did not add the GS 350 in response to Infiniti at all. Lexus stated years ago that they will be updating engines in their vehicles more often instead of keeping the same engines for years and years. Thus all the engine changes we have seen in the GS and other models.
. The V-10 pissing match with the Germans was their pissing match. Hell the RS6 has a V-10 twin turbo! In contrast the LFA has a V-10 solely b/c of F1...that was why it was chosen (though they use V-8s now).
To me the V-10 in the LFA was never meant to be in other vehicles. While it shares the same number of valves as the BMWs and Audis it just wasn't meant to be shared. This is how I feel AFTER reading about the car. A lot of us felt the V-10 (I did it) would make sense to use in a GS-F/LS-F etc b/c the Germans were doing it.
Is this a bad move? Possibly.
To be honest I doubt the M56 will be faster than the 400hp Twin turbo 550. We shall see and its pretty cool for them both to have that much power. There is no doubt INfiniti having a 420hp V-8 is a big move and is getting some people talking.
Lexus did not add the GS 350 in response to Infiniti at all. Lexus stated years ago that they will be updating engines in their vehicles more often instead of keeping the same engines for years and years. Thus all the engine changes we have seen in the GS and other models.
still sounds like bias Mike
. Come on man dont be naive. Lexus new what was in the pipeline at Infiniti. Its all a competition. Also I didn't say that the M56 will or will not be faster than the 550 but it will raise the bar in the class for more hp. They are always trying to outdo each other. I know Mercedes, as usual, will respond. They are very competitve
12-05-09, 09:39 PM
#21
Super Moderator
Lexus did not add the GS 350 in response to Infiniti at all. Lexus stated years ago that they will be updating engines in their vehicles more often instead of keeping the same engines for years and years. Thus all the engine changes we have seen in the GS and other models.
12-05-09, 09:43 PM
#22
Super Moderator
The 4GS does not need to be smaller/bigger, nor does it need to have a V10. However, it does need to have a sportier and faster edge compared to the current model. The V6 is great with 300+hp. The V8 needs to have around 400+hp to compete.
Does it need a GS-F? I don't think so. Yes, it would be great to have one to compete with the M5 or CTS-V, but ultimately, it isn't profitable, nor will it help with meeting CAFE standards by 2016.
Does it need a GS-F? I don't think so. Yes, it would be great to have one to compete with the M5 or CTS-V, but ultimately, it isn't profitable, nor will it help with meeting CAFE standards by 2016.
12-05-09, 09:45 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yup, actually the Japanese market had the GS350 from day one since they introduce the Lexus brand in 2005, much earlier than in N.America, & it did **** off many here then as to why they get the 350 in Japan but only the 300 in N.America for a then brand new GS model ...
Agreed.....
12-05-09, 10:08 PM
#24
Interesting points, I am getting a bit more nostalgia now ('1989 all over again'; "like in 1998 when..."). Yes, the 2GS debuted as the fastest production sedan at the time...the 1LS debuted as one of the finest luxury sedans of its time. There has been the argument that later generations of many cars are less relevant, in part because worthy competitors have since been built, or the innovations of cars past are now commonplace.
I agree that it's impossible to replicate the conditions of 1989 or 1998, but I still think it's possible to make a splash, or more importantly have long-term impact. Who knows, maybe one day they'll thing of "remember in 2010 when..."
My personal wishes for the 4GS include: more performance, improved overall quality, better design, more interior room, more luxury, and the list goes on. I am not expecting to get all those answered though, but what I am wondering is what the resulting blend will be...how will it taste, so to speak. GS-F is part of that potentially, but the base car and its standard variants are key.
Yes, the 2GS debuted as the fastest production sedan at the time...the 1LS debuted as one of the finest luxury sedans of its time. There has been the argument that later generations of many cars are less relevant, in part because worthy competitors have since been built, or the innovations of cars past are now commonplace. I agree that it's impossible to replicate the conditions of 1989 or 1998, but I still think it's possible to make a splash, or more importantly have long-term impact. Who knows, maybe one day they'll thing of "remember in 2010 when..."
My personal wishes for the 4GS include: more performance, improved overall quality, better design, more interior room, more luxury, and the list goes on. I am not expecting to get all those answered though, but what I am wondering is what the resulting blend will be...how will it taste, so to speak. GS-F is part of that potentially, but the base car and its standard variants are key.
12-05-09, 10:23 PM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Interesting points, I am getting a bit more nostalgia now ('1989 all over again'; "like in 1998 when..."). Yes, the 2GS debuted as the fastest production sedan at the time...the 1LS debuted as one of the finest luxury sedans of its time. There has been the argument that later generations of many cars are less relevant, in part because worthy competitors have since been built, or the innovations of cars past are now commonplace.
I agree that it's impossible to replicate the conditions of 1989 or 1998, but I still think it's possible to make a splash, or more importantly have long-term impact. Who knows, maybe one day they'll thing of "remember in 2010 when..."
My personal wishes for the 4GS include: more performance, improved overall quality, better design, more interior room, more luxury, and the list goes on. I am not expecting to get all those answered though, but what I am wondering is what the resulting blend will be...how will it taste, so to speak. GS-F is part of that potentially, but the base car and its standard variants are key.
Yes, the 2GS debuted as the fastest production sedan at the time...the 1LS debuted as one of the finest luxury sedans of its time. There has been the argument that later generations of many cars are less relevant, in part because worthy competitors have since been built, or the innovations of cars past are now commonplace. I agree that it's impossible to replicate the conditions of 1989 or 1998, but I still think it's possible to make a splash, or more importantly have long-term impact. Who knows, maybe one day they'll thing of "remember in 2010 when..."
My personal wishes for the 4GS include: more performance, improved overall quality, better design, more interior room, more luxury, and the list goes on. I am not expecting to get all those answered though, but what I am wondering is what the resulting blend will be...how will it taste, so to speak. GS-F is part of that potentially, but the base car and its standard variants are key.
BMW has 8 speeds now so they can't use that. The 2IS debuted as fastest "in class" so maybe the GS can go there again. 
but the M56 and 550 will be tough to beat.Thus I think the Lexus ace would be a GS-F, as the IS-F has been for them. That would make the GS stand apart as the only Japanese midsize super sedan.
12-05-09, 10:43 PM
#26
Whatever it is they do, they must do it right this time. What I mean is the GS vs ES thing. They should seriously consider making the next GS really worth an extra $10K. Then perhaps more people will start buying GS's. I mean, for most of us here the difference between FWD vs RWD / AWD is important. Others, well, they could careless. If the car has similar features (luxury) but worth $10K less, of course they will buy the cheaper one.
12-05-09, 11:18 PM
#27
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Yah. I have to admit that sometimes when I drive the Lexus ES loaners at the dealership I do feel like the ES gives you much of the luxury of the GS with more rear headroom but at significantly lower price tag. Its no wonder that people buy them up like hot cakes. The ES is a great car, but I agree that the 4GS needs to be more car for the money. I want another GS to beat the M5 like it did back in the day
12-06-09, 01:05 AM
#28
i agree with mike that the report looks weird. a lot of things don't really line up with what's going on
i also highly doubt the same engine will go into gsf, even a "detuned" version. the way the engine is made (titanium, etc...) just doesn't fit the budget for gsf. and it's a small, light weight, small displacement, very high rev engine. again that doesn't fall in line with how the isf engine is built. not that it's impossible, but i think the gsf engine will be quite different
and if they don't have gsf for the 4gs, then i can already say it's a huge failure. not just on the sport sedan department alone losing out the 5, e, and even the a6, but on lexus as a whole entering the sports division. i have always said, the isf was a good start, the lfa is the statement, but lexus needs to continue to build it up from there. any mis-step or delays will cost them
we will see if lexus is smart enough about that. i have high hope on the 4gs and gsf. if they don't have gs4, then honestly i will pay a lot of attention on the e63 and the next m5
i also highly doubt the same engine will go into gsf, even a "detuned" version. the way the engine is made (titanium, etc...) just doesn't fit the budget for gsf. and it's a small, light weight, small displacement, very high rev engine. again that doesn't fall in line with how the isf engine is built. not that it's impossible, but i think the gsf engine will be quite different
and if they don't have gsf for the 4gs, then i can already say it's a huge failure. not just on the sport sedan department alone losing out the 5, e, and even the a6, but on lexus as a whole entering the sports division. i have always said, the isf was a good start, the lfa is the statement, but lexus needs to continue to build it up from there. any mis-step or delays will cost them
we will see if lexus is smart enough about that. i have high hope on the 4gs and gsf. if they don't have gs4, then honestly i will pay a lot of attention on the e63 and the next m5
12-06-09, 02:37 AM
#29
first of all, isnt new GS coming next year? ;-). I doubt they will wait until 2011...
... then you guys overvalue importance of GS-F for GS sales and importance of sporty drive. Reason GS sold as it did is that car is not packaged right. You can not carry 4 people in GS, simple as that. What will sell GS is competitive V6 and Hybrid package... GS-F is for glory and taking the brand upmarket. There will be so small amounts of GS-F's sold that it trully does not matter for CAFE averages.
And I would not be suprised... at all, if GS-F is hybrid... Lithium batteries are here, they can make GSh lighter, faster and more efficient at the same time.
... then you guys overvalue importance of GS-F for GS sales and importance of sporty drive. Reason GS sold as it did is that car is not packaged right. You can not carry 4 people in GS, simple as that. What will sell GS is competitive V6 and Hybrid package... GS-F is for glory and taking the brand upmarket. There will be so small amounts of GS-F's sold that it trully does not matter for CAFE averages.
And I would not be suprised... at all, if GS-F is hybrid... Lithium batteries are here, they can make GSh lighter, faster and more efficient at the same time.
12-06-09, 06:45 AM
#30
Originally Posted by encore888
With the M5 moving from a V10 to TT V8, for Lexus to continue to maintain its power w/ efficiency emphasis (e.g. the IS-F not a gas guzzler unlike the C63 and M3), they will definitely be considering a V8 to begin with
. TMC, however from what the patent office says is bring the crown to North America which would agree with the other "e-reports" stating the ES will be separated from the Camry for its next generation.
Which would then make the ES a RWD platformed "sedan"
Then I guess Lexus could make the GS a more "coupe" like sedan?