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View Poll Results: Does Lexus have too many entry level cars?
yes 5 10.64%
no 25 53.19%
who cares 17 36.17%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

Does Lexus have TOO many entry level cars

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Old 03-03-10, 04:49 PM   #61
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There are rumors that both Audi and BMW will have A2 and 2-Series models in the future. Lexus also does not have the bunch of entry-level SUVs that BMW has with the X1 and the X3.
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Old 03-03-10, 04:54 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by (Cj) View Post
The A1 is to Audi what the Mini is to BMW. Yes they're both probably too ridiculous for premium brands, but they serve they're purpose as cute sub compacts, whereas the A3 and 1 series are both compacts.

Lexus's problem is the IS/HS/ES are all in the same class and are all around the same size and price. The A1 is going to be over a foot shorter, much cheaper than the A3, and in a completely different class. I wouldn't mind Lexus's having the IS/HS/ES if those cars were each in different classes, but Lexus is positioning all 3 as 3/A4/C competitors.

As I said Lexus had better differentiation before and it made a little bit of sense, but after the ES refresh and the introduction of the HS things got too muddy down at the $35K and below segment.
How is that a problem?
IS-small, sport luxury,
HS-middle in size, hybrid only
ES-large, luxury

All 3 have very distinct looks, size and are executed totally differently. How is that an issue? The 3 series used to sell 10-12k a month in the past. That wasn't a problem, I didn't see it bad for BMW.

If anything people say that the 3 series it too common (like a RX). The 3 vehicle strategy is different to this day. BMW now has the 1/3 series too. Acura has the TSX/TL both under 40k but has only 3 sedans and 3 SUVs. At least Lexus has a much broader lineup.
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Originally Posted by JessePS View Post

Click the image to open in full size.
Last month as a bad month for the brand even if sales went up 5%.

What is wrong with this method? 10 years selling #1.

2009 Total
Lexus 215,975
BMW 196,502
Mercedes-190,604
Cadillac-109,092
Acura-105,723
Buick-102,306
Lincoln-82,847
Audi-82,716
Infiniti-81,089
Volvo-61,435


Dec 09 (before damn huge recall mess)
Lexus-28,565
BMW-20,128
Mercedes-20,025
Cadillac-14,745
Buick-12,237
RX- 11,815 (outsold ENTIRE luxury divisions)
Acura-10,575
Lincoln-10,467
Infiniti-9,108
Audi-9,030
Volvo-5,638


By Lexus having 3 entries it also allows flexibility to still succeed is one or even two have a bad month(s). The HS is not selling so hot but the ES/IS can keep people in the showroom.
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Old 03-03-10, 04:56 PM   #63
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It's possible they could consolidate 1 down...HS hybrid vs. ES hybrid (some have used the Ford Fusion hybrid to compare--I think the next Camry hybrid should take the efficiency game higher and the ES hybrid could gain that).

However, the CT enters the subcompact arena and that is a whole other level too.
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Old 03-03-10, 04:57 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy View Post
There are rumors that both Audi and BMW will have A2 and 2-Series models in the future. Lexus also does not have the bunch of entry-level SUVs that BMW has with the X1 and the X3.
I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. The next CT will span coupes, a sedan and grow in size as the IS grows in size next time. This allows Lexus to have a vehicle below the IS in the entry level segment. This is exactly what the Germans are doing/have done as of late.

BMW does it with the 1 series. In Europe they get 3/5 door hatches and the coupes. We just get the coupes here. The X3 will grow in size to fit the X1 under it (good point too, I forgot about that)

Audi has the A3 which will grow in size since the A1 is here. The next A3 will get a coupe, sedan etc. It has a convertible in Europe we don't get.

Lexus clearly sees where the market is going like the Germans do. Notice other brands have their heads up their asses using the same tired formulas over and over.
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Old 03-03-10, 05:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
Please check the facts.
http://www.insideline.com/audi/a1/20...auto-show.html
Spun off from the same Volkswagen PQ25 platform that underpins the Seat Ibiza, Skoda Fabia and Volkswagen Polo
I would ask you to please check the facts. That is actually a common misconception. The Seat Ibiza was the first car to use the PQ25 platform. The 2nd generation Skoda Fabia uses the same platform as the 1st generation, the PQ24.

The Skoda Fabia debuted at the Geneva Motor Show in 2007, and sales followed in April. The Seat Ibiza debuted at the 2008 Geneva Motor Show. So if the Ibiza was the first to use the platform, then the Fabia couldn't have.
The platform, called PQ25, will first see use in the new Seat Ibiza. Volkswagen is scheduled to release an all-new Polo later this year (EU). Audi will then follow with the A1 in late 2009.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/12442/vo...d-awd-to-polo/
The next generation of the platform will get an AWD option, although not all VW Group cars will employ AWD in their cars.

Seat's Ibiza won't get AWD, for example, though it will be the first car to use the platform.
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...l-car-platform

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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
Did it occur to you they ARE doing what the Germans are offering.
Sorry but your thoughts don't make much sense at all.
I have no desire to argue with you because neither of us are going to budge.
Lexus is not doing what the Germans are offering. If you can name one out of the (since you like waving sales around) top 3 global luxury marques that have an entry car that is as large if not larger than their mid-size sedan, then you can claim that Lexus is doing what the Germans are doing. If you can't, then please let us agree to disagree.
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Old 03-03-10, 06:47 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by FinalBurst View Post
I would ask you to please check the facts. That is actually a common misconception. The Seat Ibiza was the first car to use the PQ25 platform. The 2nd generation Skoda Fabia uses the same platform as the 1st generation, the PQ24.

The Skoda Fabia debuted at the Geneva Motor Show in 2007, and sales followed in April. The Seat Ibiza debuted at the 2008 Geneva Motor Show. So if the Ibiza was the first to use the platform, then the Fabia couldn't have.
The platform, called PQ25, will first see use in the new Seat Ibiza. Volkswagen is scheduled to release an all-new Polo later this year (EU). Audi will then follow with the A1 in late 2009.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/12442/vo...d-awd-to-polo/
The next generation of the platform will get an AWD option, although not all VW Group cars will employ AWD in their cars.

Seat's Ibiza won't get AWD, for example, though it will be the first car to use the platform.
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...l-car-platform
So let us get this right. You are right somehow and Audi doesn't even know what it is selling? here is another source.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/05/06...form-with-awd/
The first use of the platform, called the PQ25, is used for the new Seat Ibiza. Volkswagen Polo will be next to get it later this year followed by the A1 in late 2009.

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Originally Posted by FinalBurst View Post
I have no desire to argue with you because neither of us are going to budge.
Lexus is not doing what the Germans are offering. If you can name one out of the (since you like waving sales around) top 3 global luxury marques that have an entry car that is as large if not larger than their mid-size sedan, then you can claim that Lexus is doing what the Germans are doing. If you can't, then please let us agree to disagree.
What on earth are you talking about? You name one offering the ES and FORGET the others. Who argues like that? Lexus was first and still is the only company to battle the Germans head on in the entry level class based on Size and offerings. The GS was the first Japanese brand to tackle the 5/E head on. The LS suceeded where the Q45 failed. Others have tried and failed for the most part with a glimpse of hope here or there. They try the "tweener" method.

You conveniently forget Lexus does have the ES but debuted the IS 200 which was basically a Japanese 3 in 1998, down to dimensions, RWD and I-6. It came here as the IS 300 and now the IS line. So what if the ES exists.

Why are you here? To dismiss Lexus at any turn? I don't have to prove anything as you were wrong about the platform and wrong about Lexus.
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Old 03-03-10, 06:55 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
How is that a problem?
IS-small, sport luxury,
HS-middle in size, hybrid only
ES-large, luxury

All 3 have very distinct looks, size and are executed totally differently. How is that an issue? The 3 series used to sell 10-12k a month in the past. That wasn't a problem, I didn't see it bad for BMW.
Yeah but they have a full lineup to choose from (small, medium, large) all with the same price. Yeah there are some aspects that make each special, but to me I think it's too complicated.

Anyway it's only going to get more complicated as the IS line and even CT line begins to expand. Next gen IS is rumored to have coupe and wagon variants plus a hybrid drivetrain option, the CT line may also add a Coupe version as well as a 3 door hatch version.

As all these things are added it adds to the mind boggling choices Lexus is going to have below the $40K mark. Not only that but next gen ES will probably have a hybrid drivetrain option. Where and how are the IS and ES hybrids going to slot with the HS in the lineup? These are the sort of complexities Lexus has because of the crowded entry level lineup.

Sales-wise each is going to continue to cannibalize each other. It was bad enough when Lexus just had the ES cannibalizing the GS, but now they're going to have the HS cannibalizing the ES and even the IS to an extent (especially when the HS is equipped with touring package). This is a problem that's not happening at BMW and Audi because each of their entry level cars are more clearly differentiated in size. In the chart you posted at a glance all the sedans look about the same size.
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Old 03-03-10, 06:59 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by FinalBurst View Post
Lexus is not doing what the Germans are offering. If you can name one out of the (since you like waving sales around) top 3 global luxury marques that have an entry car that is as large if not larger than their mid-size sedan, then you can claim that Lexus is doing what the Germans are doing. If you can't, then please let us agree to disagree.
Well to Lexus's defense they don't sell the ES everywhere. Most places Lexus's lineup mirrors the Germans...
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Old 03-03-10, 08:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
So let us get this right. You are right somehow and Audi doesn't even know what it is selling? here is another source.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/05/06...form-with-awd/
The first use of the platform, called the PQ25, is used for the new Seat Ibiza. Volkswagen Polo will be next to get it later this year followed by the A1 in late 2009.
I am right, and the link that you posted says that I am right. The first vehicle based off the PQ25 platform was the Seat Ibiza, followed by the VW Polo, and now the A1. So as of yet, there is no Skoda based off the PQ25 platform. The redesigned Skoda Fabia coming in 2012/13/whenever will likely use this platform, but the current Fabia is based off the PQ24.

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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
Why are you here? To dismiss Lexus at any turn? I don't have to prove anything as you were wrong about the platform and wrong about Lexus.
I am here because I owned a Lexus GS and like discussing automotive news. I do not dismiss Lexus at any turn. Also, as the link that you posted said, I was right about the platform.
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Old 03-03-10, 08:17 PM   #70
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Well to Lexus's defense they don't sell the ES everywhere. Most places Lexus's lineup mirrors the Germans...
You're right. Lexus is kind of in the middle between Acura and Audi/Merc/BMW in North America. Yes they do have 5 and 7 series fighters but they also have ES/RX/HS and GX vehicles that don't really compete in the Audi/Merc/BMW segment. The ES is a glorified Camry and American's love, most people on the autobahn would laugh at the ES. The RX competes with the MDX, then on the other hand you have the LX570 which is Range Rover/G-Wagen territory. In North America Lexus is more a full-line manufacturer than BMW/Merc/Audi wheras worldwide, BMW/Merc/Audi are full line.

Lexus does luxury in North America very, very well....keep in mind that Lexus is usually cheaper to get into that an BMW or Merc. Over in Europe, I don't believe Lexus does all that well...
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Old 03-03-10, 08:56 PM   #71
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This is not really that important as long as they address the GS and SC.

The middle of the lineup needs some work.
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Old 03-03-10, 09:55 PM   #72
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^ I agree the SC needs an update, but the GS seems to be doing alright though.
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Old 03-04-10, 07:49 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by pagemaster View Post
You're right. Lexus is kind of in the middle between Acura and Audi/Merc/BMW in North America. Yes they do have 5 and 7 series fighters but they also have ES/RX/HS and GX vehicles that don't really compete in the Audi/Merc/BMW segment. The ES is a glorified Camry and American's love, most people on the autobahn would laugh at the ES. The RX competes with the MDX, then on the other hand you have the LX570 which is Range Rover/G-Wagen territory. In North America Lexus is more a full-line manufacturer than BMW/Merc/Audi wheras worldwide, BMW/Merc/Audi are full line.

Lexus does luxury in North America very, very well....keep in mind that Lexus is usually cheaper to get into that an BMW or Merc. Over in Europe, I don't believe Lexus does all that well...
Well I wouldn't go that far

The ES isn't much different from the front drive 2.0L TFSI A6 Audi sells in Europe. Only difference being that the A6 is more sport focused. The RX is more like the Mercedes ML class and Audi Q5 than it is like the Acura MDX. The MDX seats 7 and costs less.

The GX is a fine vehicle that competes well with the Land Rover LR4 which many would probably consider a tier one vehicle.

This post is more or less about the relation of Lexus's entry level cars specifically the CT/IS/HS/ES to each other, and how they fit in the lineup and with the luxury market at large in the US
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Old 03-04-10, 09:59 AM   #74
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Well I wouldn't go that far

The ES isn't much different from the front drive 2.0L TFSI A6 Audi sells in Europe. Only difference being that the A6 is more sport focused. The RX is more like the Mercedes ML class and Audi Q5 than it is like the Acura MDX. The MDX seats 7 and costs less.

The GX is a fine vehicle that competes well with the Land Rover LR4 which many would probably consider a tier one vehicle.

This post is more or less about the relation of Lexus's entry level cars specifically the CT/IS/HS/ES to each other, and how they fit in the lineup and with the luxury market at large in the US
Thank you I wasn't even going to respond to it.

In all my years I have yet to have anyone say "omg Lexus has too many entry level cars" EXCEPT on the internet. It clearly does not hamper image to buyers. It might to people who nitpick and don't buy the cars anyway.

BMW has the X1, X3 and 1, 3
Audi A1, A3, A4
Benz A, B, C class
Lexus has CT, IS, ES, HS
Buick-Lacrosse, Lucerne (that is 2 out of their 3 models)
Acura-TSX, TL (that is 2 out of their 3 cars)



If anything Lexus has the most actual entry level cars vs the Germans. The Germans have many more sub entry level.

If we look at others they are basically only entry level brands as a whole.
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Old 03-04-10, 10:04 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
In all my years I have yet to have anyone say "omg Lexus has too many entry level cars" EXCEPT on the internet. It clearly does not hamper image to buyers. It might to people who nitpick and don't buy the cars anyway.
Exactly, we see a lot of non-issues made into mountains on the internet (usually by people that aren't even buyers of the targeted cars).

The success of Lexus in the US involves more in-depth product marketing than just worrying about number of so-called "entry level cars", whatever that is. Each car in the product line has to be measured on it's own merits.
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