View Poll Results: Does Lexus have too many entry level cars?
yes
5
10.64%
no
25
53.19%
who cares
17
36.17%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll
Does Lexus have TOO many entry level cars
12-06-09, 12:03 AM
#32
Moderator
Looking at Lexus entry level models:
ES 350
IS 250/250C/350/350C
HS 250h
CT 300h/400h (hopefully coming to U.S.)
RX 350
Yes, there are many entry level models but that just means more selection/choices.
Now lets look at each one closely.
With the ES 350 people can either upgrade to an LS 460 or stay in the ES 350line after their lease is up or are ready to upgrade once they owned their car for many years.
With the IS line people can either upgrade to a GS 350/460 or stay within the IS line after their lease is up or are ready to upgrade once they owned their car for many years.
With the HS 250h people can upgrade to a GS 450h or an LS 600h L or stay with the HS 250h.
With the upcoming CT 300h/400h people can upgrade to the HS 250h.
With the RX 350 people can upgrade to the RX 450h, GX, LX or stay within the RX line.
These entry level Lexus models will bring people to Lexus then hopefully at some point in time these same people will upgrade within the Lexus line...
ES 350
IS 250/250C/350/350C
HS 250h
CT 300h/400h (hopefully coming to U.S.)
RX 350
Yes, there are many entry level models but that just means more selection/choices.
Now lets look at each one closely.
With the ES 350 people can either upgrade to an LS 460 or stay in the ES 350line after their lease is up or are ready to upgrade once they owned their car for many years.
With the IS line people can either upgrade to a GS 350/460 or stay within the IS line after their lease is up or are ready to upgrade once they owned their car for many years.
With the HS 250h people can upgrade to a GS 450h or an LS 600h L or stay with the HS 250h.
With the upcoming CT 300h/400h people can upgrade to the HS 250h.
With the RX 350 people can upgrade to the RX 450h, GX, LX or stay within the RX line.
These entry level Lexus models will bring people to Lexus then hopefully at some point in time these same people will upgrade within the Lexus line...
12-06-09, 05:56 AM
#33
A lot of countries in EU are starting taxes based on CO2 from next year... everything over 200g/100km will be heavily taxed... Germans have crap load of small 4cly powerplants, so I dont see why should Lexus be held to different standard when it comes to that. Expect 4cly options in many lower end Lexus vehicles around the world.
12-06-09, 10:48 AM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
03-03-10, 08:42 AM
#36
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I just wanted to bump this thread now that we know the CT 200h is on it's way here 
.
Now we're looking at 4 cars below $35K in the US. Since both the IS line and CT line are expected to expand (coupe, CUV, wagon variants) that number is just going to grow making the lineup more bottom heavy.
. Now we're looking at 4 cars below $35K in the US. Since both the IS line and CT line are expected to expand (coupe, CUV, wagon variants) that number is just going to grow making the lineup more bottom heavy.
03-03-10, 09:02 AM
#37
The CT is the only wagon in the Lexus line-up, so having an entry level wagon is appropriate, especially if the CT will be done in low production numbers (one, because it's a wagon; and two, because it's a hybrid). Gas efficient, functional, and compact; it's something that will address European counterparts while at the same time being unique and future-forward.
The HS is the black sheep of the family. It's sufficient, but not groundbreaking. It would have been more appropriate to give it the current Prius' powertrain. Perhaps it will change within the next year or two? Anyways, the HS is somewhat old news already. I don't think it will age well; it will need to change within a three-four year life cycle.
The IS and ES are excellent entry level sedans for two completely different populations that do not need the hybrid configuration. They do very well.
The RX is a good entry level crossover, although I find it difficult to call it entry-level nowadays because it creeps into $50k+ pricing easily. Keep the RX a relative bargain, but Lexus needs a smaller sportier crossover. I think this will come to fruition in a couple of years.
The HS is the black sheep of the family. It's sufficient, but not groundbreaking. It would have been more appropriate to give it the current Prius' powertrain. Perhaps it will change within the next year or two? Anyways, the HS is somewhat old news already. I don't think it will age well; it will need to change within a three-four year life cycle.
The IS and ES are excellent entry level sedans for two completely different populations that do not need the hybrid configuration. They do very well.
The RX is a good entry level crossover, although I find it difficult to call it entry-level nowadays because it creeps into $50k+ pricing easily. Keep the RX a relative bargain, but Lexus needs a smaller sportier crossover. I think this will come to fruition in a couple of years.
03-03-10, 09:10 AM
#38
It's no surprise that I highly dislike the HS but I just have to wonder how Lexus plans to position this car in the future. Both the IS and ES will be redesigned within 2-3 years and will have Remote Touch and plenty of the other technological innovations that the HS carries. Based on Toyota/Lexus' aggressive strategy to have hybrid variants of every vehicle, it's surmisable that the IS and ES should have hybrid models available as well.
Who in the right state of mind would buy an HS over an IS/ES hybrid with similar features?
I also really hope that Lexus doesn't rob the IS and ES of a hybrid powertrain just to make a better business case for the HS. That, IMO, would be an awful move.
It would make sense to create an ES hybrid that focuses on efficiency (Imagine the RX 450h powertrain in something 1,500lbs lighter), and allow the IS and GS to be sportier hybrids, as the GS 450h is now.
Just my rambling...
Who in the right state of mind would buy an HS over an IS/ES hybrid with similar features?
I also really hope that Lexus doesn't rob the IS and ES of a hybrid powertrain just to make a better business case for the HS. That, IMO, would be an awful move.
It would make sense to create an ES hybrid that focuses on efficiency (Imagine the RX 450h powertrain in something 1,500lbs lighter), and allow the IS and GS to be sportier hybrids, as the GS 450h is now.
Just my rambling...
03-03-10, 09:57 AM
#40
Moderator
The ES started off as an entry level vehicle and to this day still remains so. The ES is probably at the higher end of the entry level market and does creep into the mid-level class. Hopefully the 4GS redefines the mid-level class for Lexus. As far as the CTh it's definitely a four door hatchback and not really a wagon per se (lacks a d pillar) compared to the previous generation IS Sportcross or the CTS wagon (has a d pillar)...
Last edited by Trexus; 03-03-10 at 04:16 PM.
03-03-10, 12:46 PM
#41
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The CT is the only wagon in the Lexus line-up, so having an entry level wagon is appropriate, especially if the CT will be done in low production numbers (one, because it's a wagon; and two, because it's a hybrid). Gas efficient, functional, and compact; it's something that will address European counterparts while at the same time being unique and future-forward.
The HS is the black sheep of the family. It's sufficient, but not groundbreaking. It would have been more appropriate to give it the current Prius' powertrain. Perhaps it will change within the next year or two? Anyways, the HS is somewhat old news already. I don't think it will age well; it will need to change within a three-four year life cycle.
The IS and ES are excellent entry level sedans for two completely different populations that do not need the hybrid configuration. They do very well.
The RX is a good entry level crossover, although I find it difficult to call it entry-level nowadays because it creeps into $50k+ pricing easily. Keep the RX a relative bargain, but Lexus needs a smaller sportier crossover. I think this will come to fruition in a couple of years.
The HS is the black sheep of the family. It's sufficient, but not groundbreaking. It would have been more appropriate to give it the current Prius' powertrain. Perhaps it will change within the next year or two? Anyways, the HS is somewhat old news already. I don't think it will age well; it will need to change within a three-four year life cycle.
The IS and ES are excellent entry level sedans for two completely different populations that do not need the hybrid configuration. They do very well.
The RX is a good entry level crossover, although I find it difficult to call it entry-level nowadays because it creeps into $50k+ pricing easily. Keep the RX a relative bargain, but Lexus needs a smaller sportier crossover. I think this will come to fruition in a couple of years.
I believe now Lexus might be at the point where more is not necessarily better. This past month we saw the ugly Acura TSX outsell the IS and the even uglier Acura TL outsell the ES. I know Toyota is having a recall, but I can't help but think sales would be higher if there weren't so many $35K models to choose from (and speaking of sales the HS sold a pathetic 700 units, but it had a recall at the beginning of the month).
As far as the HS's future, Lexus has to keep the model or else the resale values for the 10,000 or so owners would be horrific. Bad resales for one discontinued model could affect the brand. So the HS needs a major rework at it's refresh. Lexus needs to slap the CT's wonderful front end and grille onto the HS and the HS could use the CT's taillight design too. Thats a start. The HS needs an upgraded powertrain as well. I'll never understand why Lexus put an outdated powertrain in the all new HS but that can be remedied with a new upgraded powertrain using the new AR engines. More power and more efficiency should equal more success for the model.
Last edited by (Cj); 03-03-10 at 01:44 PM.
03-03-10, 12:59 PM
#42
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The thing is these cars no longer start under 30k or even under 35k. Lexus are no longer the cheaper buy in many cases. They are now selling on its merits and the fact that people DESIRE and are WILLING to pay the same or more for a Lexus.
HS base-35k
IS 350 base-35k
ES 350 base-35k
You add ONE option package you are at 40k. You get Jiggy and you are at 45k.
The RX is similar. Starts at what 38k or 42k for the hybrid and ONE option package takes you to 45k.
The IS 250 is 32k and the CT will likely be under 30k. I find that entry level in price.
I find nothing entry level in price 40k up. Now maybe I have to shift my thoughts as inflation and features etc are making these cars prices skyrocket.
The Lexus strategy is great. Why have one car with different engines. They offer 3 cars with different engines for different markets.
So if you add ES/IS/HS you get the most sales in the 30-40k segment. Again a segment that is GROWING. Why would they not want to be there.
Lets also note Lexus has a large portfolio over 45k.
GS
LS
SC
GX
LX
LFA
IS-F
So its not like Lexus has a bunch of entry level luxury cars and one or two vehicles over 45k.
In business one month DOES NOT make a trend. We have seen many times sales dip or jump for a month for various cars from various companies. If this trend stays, you have an issue.
Lets also note the IS is old. THe HS is NOt a volume car (and we are seeing it struggle). The ES is being tackled by the superb new LaCrosse.
HS base-35k
IS 350 base-35k
ES 350 base-35k
You add ONE option package you are at 40k. You get Jiggy
and you are at 45k. The RX is similar. Starts at what 38k or 42k for the hybrid and ONE option package takes you to 45k.
The IS 250 is 32k and the CT will likely be under 30k. I find that entry level in price.
I find nothing entry level in price 40k up. Now maybe I have to shift my thoughts as inflation and features etc are making these cars prices skyrocket.
The Lexus strategy is great. Why have one car with different engines. They offer 3 cars with different engines for different markets.
So if you add ES/IS/HS you get the most sales in the 30-40k segment. Again a segment that is GROWING. Why would they not want to be there.
Lets also note Lexus has a large portfolio over 45k.
GS
LS
SC
GX
LX
LFA
IS-F
So its not like Lexus has a bunch of entry level luxury cars and one or two vehicles over 45k.
In business one month DOES NOT make a trend. We have seen many times sales dip or jump for a month for various cars from various companies. If this trend stays, you have an issue.
Lets also note the IS is old. THe HS is NOt a volume car (and we are seeing it struggle). The ES is being tackled by the superb new LaCrosse.
03-03-10, 01:05 PM
#43
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The 2007-2009 ES had standard cloth seats and fake wood if I remember correctly, and you had to get a $~3K "premium package" to get real wood and leather. Back then most ESs on dealer lots had an MSRP of $40K because dealers rarely ordered the base ESs. When this was the case there was enough spread between the IS and ES that it was a completely different buyer class since the 2IS has always had leather and wood standard.
Well since then the price of the IS has come up from $~30K to $~33K and the refreshed 2010 ES has more standard features including leather and wood for $35K. And now the HS has been introduced for a starting price of about $34K.
So now we have the IS at $33K, the HS for $34K, and the ES for $35K all coming with pretty much the same equipment standard. This is the problem I'm talking about.
Lexus knowing that they were going to launch the HS should have made the ES to classy to be entry level as you said, but instead they moved the ES's price downward muddying up the differentiation between their entry level sedans.
Anyway this was said above, Lexus should improve the HS and make their 2 new entry level sedans (sub $40K) the IS (sporty) and HS (comfy) and their midlevel sedans ($40K and above) the ES (comfy) and the GS (sporty) with the LS topping everything off.
/rant
It's no surprise that I highly dislike the HS but I just have to wonder how Lexus plans to position this car in the future. Both the IS and ES will be redesigned within 2-3 years and will have Remote Touch and plenty of the other technological innovations that the HS carries. Based on Toyota/Lexus' aggressive strategy to have hybrid variants of every vehicle, it's surmisable that the IS and ES should have hybrid models available as well.
Who in the right state of mind would buy an HS over an IS/ES hybrid with similar features?
I also really hope that Lexus doesn't rob the IS and ES of a hybrid powertrain just to make a better business case for the HS. That, IMO, would be an awful move.
It would make sense to create an ES hybrid that focuses on efficiency (Imagine the RX 450h powertrain in something 1,500lbs lighter), and allow the IS and GS to be sportier hybrids, as the GS 450h is now.
Just my rambling...
Who in the right state of mind would buy an HS over an IS/ES hybrid with similar features?
I also really hope that Lexus doesn't rob the IS and ES of a hybrid powertrain just to make a better business case for the HS. That, IMO, would be an awful move.
It would make sense to create an ES hybrid that focuses on efficiency (Imagine the RX 450h powertrain in something 1,500lbs lighter), and allow the IS and GS to be sportier hybrids, as the GS 450h is now.
Just my rambling...
03-03-10, 01:14 PM
#45
Lexus Champion
The ES has a base MSRP of about $35K putting it into the entry level category.
The 2007-2009 ES had standard cloth seats and fake wood if I remember correctly, and you had to get a $~3K "premium package" to get real wood and leather. Back then most ESs on dealer lots had an MSRP of $40K because dealers rarely ordered the base ESs. When this was the case there was enough spread between the IS and ES that it was a completely different buyer class since the 2IS has always had leather and wood standard.
Well since then the price of the IS has come up from $~30K to $~33K and the refreshed 2010 ES has more standard features including leather and wood for $35K. And now the HS has been introduced for a starting price of about $34K.
So now we have the IS at $33K, the HS for $34K, and the ES for $35K all coming with pretty much the same equipment standard. This is the problem I'm talking about.
Lexus knowing that they were going to launch the HS should have made the ES to classy to be entry level as you said, but instead they moved the ES's price downward muddying up the differentiation between their entry level sedans.
Anyway this was said above, Lexus should improve the HS and make their 2 new entry level sedans (sub $40K) the IS (sporty) and HS (comfy) and their midlevel sedans ($40K and above) the ES (comfy) and the GS (sporty) with the LS topping everything off.
/rant
Great Post
The 2007-2009 ES had standard cloth seats and fake wood if I remember correctly, and you had to get a $~3K "premium package" to get real wood and leather. Back then most ESs on dealer lots had an MSRP of $40K because dealers rarely ordered the base ESs. When this was the case there was enough spread between the IS and ES that it was a completely different buyer class since the 2IS has always had leather and wood standard.
Well since then the price of the IS has come up from $~30K to $~33K and the refreshed 2010 ES has more standard features including leather and wood for $35K. And now the HS has been introduced for a starting price of about $34K.
So now we have the IS at $33K, the HS for $34K, and the ES for $35K all coming with pretty much the same equipment standard. This is the problem I'm talking about.
Lexus knowing that they were going to launch the HS should have made the ES to classy to be entry level as you said, but instead they moved the ES's price downward muddying up the differentiation between their entry level sedans.
Anyway this was said above, Lexus should improve the HS and make their 2 new entry level sedans (sub $40K) the IS (sporty) and HS (comfy) and their midlevel sedans ($40K and above) the ES (comfy) and the GS (sporty) with the LS topping everything off.
/rant
Great Post