Toyota and Lexus Sudden Acceleration

[I8ABMR]

I wasnt aware they were cleared. whats the story on that??

[FKL]

Originally Posted by The G Man

Although it did mention that there are a few German cars that when your tap the brakes, it will cut off the throttle, anyone know which German cars does that?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runawa...ory?id=8980479

Yes, when the brake switch is activated (brake pushed) when the throttle is also down, the ECM initially cuts power to the throttle and if you continue to do so, will ultimately cut the throttle altogether. You can brake torque the car from a stop as VW has programmed the car to allow throttle IF the brake was applied first. But from Gas to brake, the system activates. I know all VWs since 2001 have done this (when DBW was being standardized across the range). All Audi, BMW, Jaguars, and MBs with DBW as well. A bit unbelievable that Toyota's DBW system don't have this as I thought it was standard practice with all DBW systems...It's only a software protocol, as the brake pedal tells the ECM to cut throttle as soon as it is pushed when the cruise control is on...

[The G Man]

Originally Posted by FKL

Yes, when the brake switch is activated (brake pushed) when the throttle is also down, the ECM initially cuts power to the throttle and if you continue to do so, will ultimately cut the throttle altogether. You can brake torque the car from a stop as VW has programmed the car to allow throttle IF the brake was applied first. But from Gas to brake, the system activates. I know all VWs since 2001 have done this (when DBW was being standardized across the range). All Audi, BMW, Jaguars, and MBs with DBW as well. A bit unbelievable that Toyota's DBW system don't have this as I thought it was standard practice with all DBW systems...It's only a software protocol, as the brake pedal tells the ECM to cut throttle as soon as it is pushed when the cruise control is on...

So you are saying that pretty much all German cars have this safety feature but all Japanese cars have overlook it. That safety feature would have the saves the lives of those in that trooper's Lexus.

[IS350jet]

Originally Posted by FKL

Yes, when the brake switch is activated (brake pushed) when the throttle is also down, the ECM initially cuts power to the throttle and if you continue to do so, will ultimately cut the throttle altogether. You can brake torque the car from a stop as VW has programmed the car to allow throttle IF the brake was applied first. But from Gas to brake, the system activates. I know all VWs since 2001 have done this (when DBW was being standardized across the range). All Audi, BMW, Jaguars, and MBs with DBW as well. A bit unbelievable that Toyota's DBW system don't have this as I thought it was standard practice with all DBW systems...It's only a software protocol, as the brake pedal tells the ECM to cut throttle as soon as it is pushed when the cruise control is on...

It is a valuable safety feature, to be sure. The problem, though, is cars with DBW systems aren't actually having issues with unintended acceleration. There are "driver" issues, not electronic/mechanical malfunctions. I could still see this safety feature working in extremely rare situations, though.

[The G Man]

Originally Posted by IS350jet

It is a valuable safety feature, to be sure. The problem, though, is cars with DBW systems aren't actually having issues with unintended acceleration. There are "driver" issues, not electronic/mechanical malfunctions. I could still see this safety feature working in extremely rare situations, though.

No one knows that for sure, its the driver's word vs a multi-billion dollar cooperation's. Unless the driver have definitely proof, the cooperate high price lawyers will always win . The problem is that computer or electronic glitches often are hard to trace. Many times, the problem would surface and disappear after the engine is shut off. To say that computers never fails is wishful thinking. Even NASA's computers which have back ups to their back ups have fail once or twice.

[IS350jet]

All car manufacturers have "unintended acceleration" issues, not just Toyota. See, the problem is not with the car or the DBW ecu. In over 99% of all claims, from owners of all manufacturers, the results were exactly the same. "NO PROBLEM FOUND with said vehicle". Drivers are at fault in nearly ALL cases involving run-a-way vehicles. In a panic, the driver may think he's got all his force on the brake, when in fact, it's on the throttle. Rather than fess up to an "at fault" accident, they blame the car. "Oh.. it wasn't my fault, the car accelerated suddenly and at the exact same time, the brakes failed" Yea, right!! It's so easy to blame the car and not yourself but guess what? Upon further investigation of the car, it's the same issue over and over again. "NO PROBLEM FOUND with said vehicle"

[1SICKLEX]

They were cleared. This shouldnt even be on page 2.

[IntegresS]

Shouldn't be, but the news/media is going crazy with these allegations of unintended acceleration.

Thanks Nightline ABC news.

[LS430inDE.]

Originally Posted by IntegresS

Shouldn't be, but the news/media is going crazy with these allegations of unintended acceleration.

Thanks Nightline ABC news.

What would be the cause of the acceleration accidents INCREASING during and after the years of changing the design to DBW???

I believe the # of reported incidents doubled or tripled since the change to DBW? To support my statement (and what ABC reported last night) I searched for charts of "reported" acceleration (sudden or stuck) problems at ntsb but came up empty.

Also...I've read several people saying "almost" every incident or "nearly all" incidents were driver error or not the cause of Toyota. But...THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH! It should be 100% driver error! (to clear Toyota 100%)

If even JUST 1% of these accidents are in fact, ecu/cpu problems, THEN IT IS A TOYOTA PROBLEM!!!!

[IntegresS]

Originally Posted by LS430inDE.

What would be the cause of the acceleration accidents INCREASING during and after the years of changing the design to DBW???

I believe the # of reported incidents doubled or tripled since the change to DBW? To support my statement (and what ABC reported last night) I searched for charts of "reported" acceleration (sudden or stuck) problems at ntsb but came up empty.

Also...I've read several people saying "almost" every incident or "nearly all" incidents were driver error or not the cause of Toyota. But...THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH! It should be 100% driver error! (to clear Toyota 100%)

If even JUST 1% of these accidents are in fact, ecu/cpu problems, THEN IT IS A TOYOTA PROBLEM!!!!

I'm not saying Toyota is right or wrong in this situation. I don't have all of the facts presented in front me to make that call, and I am not taking sides.

What I am saying is that the news and media are known for taking something and blowing it up in an effort to get people to watch, as a scare tactic "This could happen to you!, tonight at 9"

I pointed out the Nightline ABC news bit because they didn't even show Toyota's full official response. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsbz8uLi-Xs


Again, I'm not taking sides here, I just think the news/media goes a bit too far sometimes and just ends up scaring people rather than presenting unbiased facts.

Just released:
Toyota's official statement: It was never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information. Toyota agrees with NHTSA’s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required. We are in the process of developing vehicle-based remedies to help avoid the potential for an incompatible or unsecured driver's floor mat to interfere with the accelerator pedal and cause it to get stuck in the wide open position.

[LS430inDE.]

Originally Posted by IntegresS

I'm not saying Toyota is right or wrong in this situation. I don't have all of the facts presented in front me to make that call, and I am not taking sides.

What I am saying is that the news and media are known for taking something and blowing it up in an effort to get people to watch, as a scare tactic "This could happen to you!, tonight at 9"

I pointed out the Nightline ABC news bit because they didn't even show Toyota's full official response. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsbz8uLi-Xs


Again, I'm not taking sides here, I just think the news/media goes a bit too far sometimes and just ends up scaring people rather than presenting unbiased facts.

Just released:
Toyota's official statement: It was never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information. Toyota agrees with NHTSA’s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required. We are in the process of developing vehicle-based remedies to help avoid the potential for an incompatible or unsecured driver's floor mat to interfere with the accelerator pedal and cause it to get stuck in the wide open position.

I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% that the "mainstream" tv news media (abc, nbc, cbs) often tries to "lead" the common citizens into a certain mindset, or they try to "lead" the common citizen into perceiving a situation a certain way. In 95% of those cases, it's in the best interest for the common citizen to do MORE research into the topic or subject at hand, instead of getting a "biased" and one-sided approach and opinion and point of view.

THIS subject is the other 5% where I think the media is doing the citizens a service by bringing it and keeping it to our attention.

I asked before (not specifically to you, but to ANYONE following this thread) and haven't seen a response to my opinion on the matter........

If 90 or 95 or 98% or most or nearly all or almost all of these sudden acceleration accidents were caused by human error, so be it. But what about the other 10% or 5% or even 2% that is NOT human error, but rather mechanical or electrical or design error. Can those instances be just forgotten about? Can those occurances just be overlooked? Can those accidents and/or deaths just be written off as "it just happens?"

Toyota is responsible unless it is absolutely known and proven that all 100% of all these accidents are human error.

If just 1% of all these sudden acceleration accidents are ecu/electrical/design errors, IT IS TOYOTA'S FAULT! How can anyone disagree with that?

If 1% of Apple IPODS blow up in a users ear and make them deaf, do we just say ehhhhh....human error! If 1% of elevators freefalled from the top floor of a building, do we just say ehhh...human error! If 1% pencil sharpeners cut off a students hands and they lose their fingers, do we just say ehhh...human error!

I can not believe how simplistic some of the points of view/posts are on here. It's disappointing actually, but I should expect it I guess.

All of a sudden everyone on here is an expert in emergency situations! LOL!!! All this Monday morning quarterbacking is laughable!!!! The bottom line is NOBODY can say with 100% certainty, how you will react in an panic stricken sudden emergency! Of course with this SPECIFIC incident, WE ALL will have a better idea how to react, but that is only because we've been DISCUSSING IT BEFORE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS TO US!!!

Again, unless 100% of these sudden acceleration accidents are human error, then Toyota is responsible and liable for that other 1 or 2 or 5%!!!

I'm not taking sides, but trying to put the blame where it deservedly belongs.

[The G Man]

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

They were cleared. This shouldnt even be on page 2.

So was O J Simpson the 1st time

[Gojirra99]

Originally Posted by The G Man

So was O J Simpson the 1st time

Not a good analogy at all, the second time was a civil suit which is based on "preponderance of evidence", a much less strict burden of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" the first time(criminal case).

[1SICKLEX]

Originally Posted by Gojirra99

Not a good analogy at all, the second time was a civil suit which is based on "preponderance of evidence", a much less strict burden of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" the first time(criminal case).

Yeah, that analogy was way off.

[FKL]

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

They were cleared. This shouldnt even be on page 2.

Thread should stay open even if we are discussing the lack of a brake switch throttle cut off on all Toyota and Lexus vehicles. It wouldn't be hard to add as again, it's just a code in the software. That software coding would rule all of this conjecture moot.