Buick Lacross vs. ES350 according to Edmunds

[Threxx]

Originally Posted by SLegacy99

The 3.0L Lacrosse must be awful to drive. And it offers no fuel economy advantage.

I'm having a hard time understanding the point of it, too. If its mileage is the same as the 3.6, and its weight and cost to produce are nearly the same... it really makes no sense.

I did hear somebody else say that in GM's own internal testing the 3.0 got about 8-10% better fuel economy... but that somehow that didn't translate when the EPA did their tests.

Yeah I really think GM would be better off at this point cutting the 3.0 and going all 3.6. The only advantage it serves right now is to help them sell more of the up level CXS... but is that really worth having a mid and lower tier/trim model that's less competitive with little to no upside?

[Och]

Originally Posted by Threxx

I'm having a hard time understanding the point of it, too. If its mileage is the same as the 3.6, and its weight and cost to produce are nearly the same... it really makes no sense.

I did hear somebody else say that in GM's own internal testing the 3.0 got about 8-10% better fuel economy... but that somehow that didn't translate when the EPA did their tests.

Yeah I really think GM would be better off at this point cutting the 3.0 and going all 3.6. The only advantage it serves right now is to help them sell more of the up level CXS... but is that really worth having a mid and lower tier/trim model that's less competitive with little to no upside?

Maybe they are trying to get rid of the overstock of 3.0? Thats kind of what happened when the 3GS300 rolled out - Toyota needed to get rid of the overstock of 3.0's before rolling the 3.5 out.

[C. McHale]

Excuse me if I come across as a bit harsh, but Lexus deserved this. Every bit of it.

They had the opportunity to create a true, worthy successor to the ES 330 with the ES 350. What did Lexus do? They dropped the ball , big time.

The ES 350 is what you get when a company relies on image and branding rather than quality and refinement to sell a product.

Oh sure, the ES 350 looks decent enough on the exterior, and somewhat sportier than the ES 330 it replaced. Even so, as someone who drives a 330, and picked it specifically OVER the 350 when directly comparing the two, I think certain elements of the 330's exterior are actually better than the 350. The more aggressive exterior on the 350 also produces the side effect of poor rear-view visibility, though to be fair, many cars are starting to become this way.

Now, the interior? There's no comparison between the two. The 350 is a sea of nasty plastics straight from the Camry part bin, with a few wood trim pieces thrown on as almost an afterthought. It's an insult considering what you pay (there's cars with better interiors that cost $10k less), and it's also an insult to the Lexus badge. It's not deserving of it.

The 330 has (mostly) nice, soft touch surfaces and tastefully done wood, and plenty of it. The ride is also smoother, and is, as mmarshall has voiced before--much more suiting to the overall "role" of the car.

Then look at the release of the ES 350, in which models were plagued with wind noise issues and rattles, as well as decreased reliability from the outgoing model, and you have what on paper should be an utter failure.

I think the ES 350 sold like it did because of its updated exterior, which appealed to many. It also had no real competitors. The products from Buick and Lincoln were still lame at the time, and cars like the TL, CTS, A4, etc. were designed with a different role in mind. And finally, the ES 350 has that prestigious 'L' badge, which people associate with quality, as they should.

Unfortunately, that's been slipping quite a bit lately. Lexus really needs to stop this cost-cutting nonsense. Lexus is about the relentless pursuit of perfection. Not about the relentless pursuit of cutting corners.

In essence, the ES 350 sold (and still does) not because it's a great car. It sells because of ignorance, snobbery, and reputation for dealer service.

It's time to face the facts. Lexus' second most important model has been outdone now by three brands. If someone were to mention these brands to you five years ago--and the thought of them making a product that could compete with and outdo the ES--you'd have laughed.

But times have changed, and now Lincoln, Buick, and yes, even Hyundai have products better than the ES. Yes, BETTER than the ES. For the same price or less. Think about that for a minute.

The next-gen ES better be a home run. If the "refreshed" ES pictures are any indication though, it looks like those of us who like and root for Lexus (they're making it harder lately) will be in for more disappointment.

PS: If you own an ES 350, sorry. The above is simply my opinion, and should be taken as such.

[Och]

Originally Posted by C. McHale

Excuse me if I come across as a bit harsh, but Lexus deserved this. Every bit of it.

They had the opportunity to create a true, worthy successor to the ES 330 with the ES 350. What did Lexus do? They dropped the ball , big time.

The ES 350 is what you get when a company relies on image and branding rather than quality and refinement to sell a product.

Oh sure, the ES 350 looks decent enough on the exterior, and somewhat sportier than the ES 330 it replaced. Even so, as someone who drives a 330, and picked it specifically OVER the 350 when directly comparing the two, I think certain elements of the 330's exterior are actually better than the 350. The more aggressive exterior on the 350 also produces the side effect of poor rear-view visibility, though to be fair, many cars are starting to become this way.

Now, the interior? There's no comparison between the two. The 350 is a sea of nasty plastics straight from the Camry part bin, with a few wood trim pieces thrown on as almost an afterthought. It's an insult considering what you pay (there's cars with better interiors that cost $10k less), and it's also an insult to the Lexus badge. It's not deserving of it.

The 330 has (mostly) nice, soft touch surfaces and tastefully done wood, and plenty of it. The ride is also smoother, and is, as mmarshall has voiced before--much more suiting to the overall "role" of the car.

Then look at the release of the ES 350, in which models were plagued with wind noise issues and rattles, as well as decreased reliability from the outgoing model, and you have what on paper should be an utter failure.

I think the ES 350 sold like it did because of its updated exterior, which appealed to many. It also had no real competitors. The products from Buick and Lincoln were still lame at the time, and cars like the TL, CTS, A4, etc. were designed with a different role in mind. And finally, the ES 350 has that prestigious 'L' badge, which people associate with quality, as they should.

Unfortunately, that's been slipping quite a bit lately. Lexus really needs to stop this cost-cutting nonsense. Lexus is about the relentless pursuit of perfection. Not about the relentless pursuit of cutting corners.

In essence, the ES 350 sold (and still does) not because it's a great car. It sells because of ignorance, snobbery, and reputation for dealer service.

It's time to face the facts. Lexus' second most important model has been outdone now by three brands. If someone were to mention these brands to you five years ago--and the thought of them making a product that could compete with and outdo the ES--you'd have laughed.

But times have changed, and now Lincoln, Buick, and yes, even Hyundai have products better than the ES. Yes, BETTER than the ES. For the same price or less. Think about that for a minute.

The next-gen ES better be a home run. If the "refreshed" ES pictures are any indication though, it looks like those of us who like and root for Lexus (they're making it harder lately) will be in for more disappointment.

PS: If you own an ES 350, sorry. The above is simply my opinion, and should be taken as such.

Excellent post, from an actual ES owner, not just someone who likes to bash Lexus on the internet.

I share your view completely, and I hope someone at Lexus realizes that they are on a huge downfall.

[GSteg]

Originally Posted by C. McHale

They had the opportunity to create a true, worthy successor to the ES 330 with the ES 350. What did Lexus do? They dropped the ball , big time.

Couldn't have said it better. My friend recently bought an 05 ES330 over an ES350 for the same reason. Looks aside (which is subjective anyways), the ES350 main advantage is the engine/transmission. ES330 may not handle as nice, it's sure is quieter on the road and so is the engine. Interior-wise, there is no contest.

But one thing the ES350 does well is power delivery. The 02-06 ES are known to have hesitations and abrupt shifts most of the time. It just can't figure out what gear it wants to be in.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by GSteg

Couldn't have said it better. My friend recently bought an 05 ES330 over an ES350 for the same reason. Looks aside (which is subjective anyways), the ES350 main advantage is the engine/transmission. ES330 may not handle as nice, it's sure is quieter on the road and so is the engine. Interior-wise, there is no contest.

But one thing the ES350 does well is power delivery. The 02-06 ES are known to have hesitations and abrupt shifts most of the time. It just can't figure out what gear it wants to be in.

My dad actually was looking back in 07 at a new car. It came down to three cars

2006 (brand new) ES330 not sold
2007 Toyota Avalon
2007 ES 350

Early owners of the ES350 were reporting transmission flare, wind noise and some rattles. The ES330 was just too old of a model. Avalon won on price and cheap ownerships costs.

We really research all three. My dad really, really wanted the ES...but the early reports from owners prevented this. Looking back at the design, the design was not all that much better when we compared the ES330 to the ES350, It seemed very feminine and the centre stack was a bit odd.

[speedflex]

Well, as for the Buick, I think the car it will hurt most is the Lincoln MKS.

[KILLERGS4]

I think the ES350 is sales champion for these reasons. First the Lexus Brand name is great (considered Tier I Luxury Brand) + great ownership experience. Second it's bigger than the competition (ie 3-series, C-class, A4 etc, ES350 doesn't look compact like the 3 cars I mention). 3rd people who are joining the Entry Luxury Market wants the name recognition (not Tier II luxury like Infiniti or Acura) that is also cost effective and reliable in the long run. I think these 3 factors are huge in ES350 success. If they were to get rid of the ES350, the benefactor would not be IS250/350, instead I think would be GS350. I believe ES350 success contributes to GS's (sales) failure. They are similar in size, comparable in HP and technology. GS is the only car that gets so much competition within it's own brand.

[Fizzboy7]

I've not heard anyone bash the ES350's interior until now. In fact, the major car mags have glowed over the interior. Personally, I would not call it awful in any sense. It's just not as elegant as the previous design (that dash rocked!).
As far as these two cars compared together, it's silly. The ES has been on the road since 2006. When the refresh and redesign debuts, I'm confident it will be above the Buick.
More, the Avalon would be a better comparison to the Buick as far as brands and models go. Buick and Toyota are more for the ho-hum, average driver. Lexus is more premium and exclusive.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Fizzboy7

More, the Avalon would be a better comparison to the Buick as far as brands and models go. Buick and Toyota are more for the ho-hum, average driver. Lexus is more premium and exclusive.

I think the Avalon is too large to be compared to the Lacrosse. The ES is clearly the car that Buick targeted with this design.

The Avalon competes more with the Lucerne and possibly with the Cadillac DTS with its size.

[Fizzboy7]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

I think the Avalon is too large to be compared to the Lacrosse. The ES is clearly the car that Buick targeted with this design.

The Avalon competes more with the Lucerne and possibly with the Cadillac DTS with its size.

Perhaps, but I've always looked at the Lucerne and Lacrosse as roughly the same car. Both are about the same size, both are plain, both do not stand out as prestigious or classy, both are in mass rental fleets, and both are relatively slow sellers with huge discounts. That's why I can't use the name Lexus in the same sentence as Buick. They are on two different tiers (to me at least).

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Fizzboy7

Perhaps, but I've always looked at the Lucerne and Lacrosse as roughly the same car. Both are about the same size, both are plain, both do not stand out as prestigious or classy, both are in mass rental fleets, and both are relatively slow sellers with huge discounts. That's why I can't use the name Lexus in the same sentence as Buick. They are on two different tiers (to me at least).

You mean both were. I would not consider the old Lacrosse on the same level as the Avalon or ES350. It would be on the level of the Camry

The new Lacrosse takes it to a new level.

[LexBob2]

I'm anxious to see the new LaCrosse in person after seeeing at the auto show. As of late last week, still none at two dealers near me. One sales rep said they were expecting 8 cars initially but all deliveries were on QC hold by GM. He said another dealer had one on the sales floor for display only.

I think the ES will be fine. Even though the ES330 had dated styling and a mediocre drive train it sold well. The ES350 with improved styling and better drive train has had record sales. Competition from new models is always good and makes everyone better.