328i vs. IS350

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen

I dont see the BMW "free" maintenance as a big deal when its 4 oil changes, wipers, and brake pads. Especially when you pay much more for a similarly equipped. I got 2 years free oil changes on my new Lexus, and oil changes after that are $50 at the dealer.

Exactly, the dollars and cents or the economics of the free maintenance (during the warranty period) is not enough to make or break the deal. On the Lexus there is only one major service in that period at 30K miles, averaging $500 at the dealer.

The choice of the 328 vs. IS350 should be made on other far more substantial criteria than that.

[Threxx]

Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen

I dont see the BMW "free" maintenance as a big deal when its 4 oil changes, wipers, and brake pads. Especially when you pay much more for a similarly equipped. I got 2 years free oil changes on my new Lexus, and oil changes after that are $50 at the dealer.

In addition to oil changes (which are expensive since they use synthetic and use quite a bit of oil on BMWs), brake pads, and wipers, my 335i has had air filter and cabin filter replaced already before 30k miles. The car's computer is recommending spark plug replacement and coolant flush well before 50k miles, too, which my dealer told me is normal... they don't use 100k mile plugs or coolant in the turbo engines... not sure about the 328i. That's only what I'm aware of... there might be more recommended and then of course there's also brake rotors if you are hard on your brakes.

Originally Posted by IS-SV

Exactly, the dollars and cents or the economics of the free maintenance (during the warranty period) is not enough to make or break the deal. On the Lexus there is only one major service in that period at 30K miles, averaging $500 at the dealer.

The choice of the 328 vs. IS350 should be made on other far more substantial criteria than that.

Never did I say it was enough to make or break the deal. I did say it was worth considering. Unless $1600-1800 dollars (my best estimate for what an IS350 will cost you if you bring it in to the dealer for all scheduled maintenance in the first 50k miles) is chump change to you?

I consider all factors when car shopping. A smart shopper would also consider finance rates if they plan to finance, expected depreciation, expected repair costs, fuel economy, insurance rates, etc.

[M5Guy]

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

Call me biased but CL offers the least biased internet car experience.

Originally Posted by Threxx

I can't stand the average person on any of the BMW forums. Completely biased about BMW and about 50% of them are just d-bags in general. Most of them can't admit that there might be a single flaw with any BMW (or German in general) car. If there's a problem with the design of your car, it's not the car's/BMW's fault, it's the fault of your stupid opinion or preference or expectation.

I think that you guys must be on a different Club Lexus site the the one I've been visiting. I would say this board is just as biased as any other board out there.

With regards to BMW boards, maybe it is the 3-series boards that are immature? I can say that bimmerfest (in the 5-series/M5 area) and e60 do not seem to fit your description.

I don't want to start a board war here (pretty sure that is against the rules), but like I said, maybe there is a different Club Lexus board?

[Threxx]

Originally Posted by M5Guy

I think that you guys must be on a different Club Lexus site the the one I've been visiting. I would say this board is just as biased as any other board out there.

With regards to BMW boards, maybe it is the 3-series boards that are immature? I can say that bimmerfest (in the 5-series/M5 area) and e60 do not seem to fit your description.

I don't want to start a board war here (pretty sure that is against the rules), but like I said, maybe there is a different Club Lexus board?

CL has some amazingly biased members and some amazingly levelheaded members, and most are somewhere inbetween IMO.

Based on my limited experience in the Bimmerfest and other BMW forums' 3-series forums, there's far more bias and general douchebaggery over there. So many people out there can't accept even the possibility that BMW might have flaws in their vehicles.

But you are right, my experience on those BMW forums is 90% limited to the 3-series area. My experience on CL is 90% limited to car chat, so maybe that's the difference. Maybe if I went to the BMW forums' equivalent to car chat (if they have one) and compared it to the IS forum here, then I'd have the opposite point of view. I can definitely see that happening.

[mmarshall]

I'm a little late to the party on this thread, but I'll toss in my $.02. Most of the significant points have already been made here, so there isn't a whole lot I can add to it, except for a couple of things. Being in CA, I assume you're in a part of the state that doesn't get snow/ice and will need AWD? Both the 3-series and the IS250 (but not the 350) have AWD options. But the IS250 AWD is sluggish; maybe a little too much so for your friend. And both are now also available in convertible models.

As far as leasing goes, I agree to consider the BMW.....it also has the advantage of free maintenance. But the IS will give better reliability, especially in electronics. I've driven a number of examples of both cars, and the BMW is definitely the better chassis/steering feel. Both have nice brakes. For a straight purchase, though, the IS350 probably gives you a little more for your money, especially in the powertrain department. It also has a noticeably better paint job and nicer leather on the seats than the BMW.

[mmarshall]

CL has some amazingly biased members and some amazingly levelheaded members, and most are somewhere inbetween IMO.

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

Call me biased but CL offers the least biased internet car experience. Tons of people on here that own different cars and/or have experience with it. Also we won't let a flame fest continue or even start most times.

Both 1SICKLEX and I do regular car reviews, and we both try to be as thurough and objective as possible, although he makes no bones about the fact that he dislikes several things about today's Acuras, and I make no bones about the fact that I dislike harsh suspensions/tires and a stiff ride. But we both look at the vehicles from the point of others as well; not just ourselves.

Most, (though not necessarily all) of the other posters in CAR CHAT are level-headed and objective....unlike with some other sites, the moderators here and at the rest of the CL forums don't let things get out of hand.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by Threxx

Never did I say it was enough to make or break the deal. I did say it was worth considering. Unless $1600-1800 dollars (my best estimate for what an IS350 will cost you if you bring it in to the dealer for all scheduled maintenance in the first 50k miles) is chump change to you?

In reality it's closer to $1000 (I consider anything under a grand rounding error) for the IS350 which is chump change to me for a $40K plus car. The only major service in the warranty period is the $500 service at 30K miles, the rest are $59 oil changes at intervals of 7K miles.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by Threxx

I consider all factors when car shopping. A smart shopper would also consider finance rates if they plan to finance, expected depreciation, expected repair costs, fuel economy, insurance rates, etc.

Yes, I agree 100% and that's how I deal with and advise others too. As you pointed out depreciation is critical to consider and many people fail to factor that in, it's huge bucks (not chump change).

[Threxx]

Originally Posted by IS-SV

In reality it's closer to $1000 (I consider anything under a grand rounding error) for the IS350 which is chump change to me for a $40K plus car. The only major service in the warranty period is the $500 service at 30K miles, the rest are $59 oil changes at intervals of 7K miles.

59 bucks with tire rotation and loaner w/ synthetic or semi synthetic oil??

My dealer charges $110 every 5k miles for oil and tire rotation including loaner car and that's not even synthetic oil. I thought 5k miles was what Lexus recommends for oil change intervals, which is what I based my calculation on - at least I think it was for my GS400.

Also 15k miles was more than just an oil change, as was 45k miles.

30k I remember being more like $650-750 but for my figure above I took your $500 estimate since I have no idea for the IS350.

Yeah 1 grand is small compared to 40 grand, but if somebody handed you a stack of 10 crisp 100 dollar bills I bet you might be pretty excited. Thus, it's not chump change, even if it is a small amount relative to the entire purchase price of the car. If I'm considering everything down to a 20 dollar/month difference in insurance premiums when I shop for cars, I'll definitely consider a $1600 (or $1000) difference in maintenance costs.

[Faymester]

Hands down, unless your friend really likes driving, he should get the the IS.

The only (and I definitely mean only) reason I'm moving to BMW is for the driving 'experience'. I'm convinced Lexus makes a better car, a nicer are, and a much lower headache car.

edit: when I'm talking about buying a car I do not factor in depreciation because I'm not thinking about when I'm going to sell it. I know I'll sell it eventually but since there's no expiry date on my ownership of said car, trying to figure out what it's worth when I want to get rid of it is about as accurate as the side of a barn.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by IS-SV

Yes, I agree 100% and that's how I deal with and advise others too. As you pointed out depreciation is critical to consider and many people fail to factor that in, it's huge bucks (not chump change).

You're right that depreciation is a major factor in owner expense, but, however, it can't always be figured (or guessed) in advance. BMW and Nissan both lost a lot of money on leases because the residual values, at the ends of the leases, ended up being less, and the depreciation more, than what the leasing contracts had figured on. Likewise, Hyundai and Kia products, SHOULD, by all signs, be enjoying less depreciation now, due to their improving reputation and popularity as both new and used cars, but that is not the case either......both are depreciating more than they deserve. Hondas, traditionally, have had very low depreciation, and that has hung on, even though some of their newer designs are less attractive than before....that could be a sign of an increasing preference of the public for used Hondas, rather than new ones.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by Threxx

59 bucks with tire rotation and loaner w/ synthetic or semi synthetic oil??

My dealer charges $110 every 5k miles for oil and tire rotation including loaner car and that's not even synthetic oil. I thought 5k miles was what Lexus recommends for oil change intervals, which is what I based my calculation on - at least I think it was for my GS400.

Also 15k miles was more than just an oil change, as was 45k miles.

30k I remember being more like $650-750 but for my figure above I took your $500 estimate since I have no idea for the IS350.

Yeah 1 grand is small compared to 40 grand, but if somebody handed you a stack of 10 crisp 100 dollar bills I bet you might be pretty excited. Thus, it's not chump change, even if it is a small amount relative to the entire purchase price of the car. If I'm considering everything down to a 20 dollar/month difference in insurance premiums when I shop for cars, I'll definitely consider a $1600 (or $1000) difference in maintenance costs.

Yes, we all have different threshholds for excitement about money so I won't go into that, I do respect difference of opinion even if I can't get excited over a grand. But I fully expect discounts on both cars to run in the thousands, not chump change.

Yes, I'm talking dino oil, not synth, no tire rotation on staggered wheels. Dealers are ok with oil change intervals of 5000 - 7500 miles here, and so am I based on knowledge about oil change intervals and oil life. $59 to $69 depending on which one of two dealers I use, no loaner I sit there and wait 1 hour or they will come in mobile van a do change at my office. I skip the extra service at 15K miles (which is "clean AC filter"), plus whatever stuff they make up not in service manual.

I'm like you, I manage carefully insurance premiums too, since I usually have 3 to 4 cars in my fleet at the same time.

[amdave]

Over 50% of BMWs are leased. This to me is an issue. It basically means the car is not expected to have excellent reliability or be owned for a long time.

Frankly, leasing is designed to put people into cars they can't really afford. When a car maker actively caters to that, they have very little incentive to make cars of high quality and reliability which will last a long time.

People who are financially savvy, no matter how rich, will not lease. They will buy a high quality car which will last 10 yrs+ with little headache or need for expensive repairs.

This is why I own a 2009 LS 460 and not a 7 series or S class.

Lets see what Benz can do in the future - if they can get back to the quality of build they had in the past, I may buy another one in the future. Currently, however, Lexus has the best quality cars out there.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by amdave

Lets see what Benz can do in the future - if they can get back to the quality of build they had in the past, I may buy another one in the future. Currently, however, Lexus has the best quality cars out there.

Yes, Lexus is probably the most reliable brand, overall, in the upmarket/luxury class, but the Infiniti G and M series (as well as some less-exensive cars) are also up there, and I have seen a lot of people (including myself) have excellent luck with Subarus, Toyotas, and Hondas. Newer Hyundais are also now bordering on excellent.

[amdave]

I have a 1998 Camry with 200k miles on it sitting next to the Lexus in the garage, so I definitely agree.