ACURA says it can achieve Tier-1 status without RWD and V8s

[GSteg]

Disadvantage in complexity and valvetrain weight? If anything, SOHC has the advantage there. Less parts and friction is an advantage to any engine.

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by 06TLDude

For a brand that's supposedly irrelevant you guys sure do spend a lot of time talking about them.

This forum is not called CAR CHAT without reason.

[Hoovey2411]

I think for starters, If Acura wants to be a Tier 1 player, they need to have a flagship that is more distinctive than its sibling. Both the current RL and TL seem to be stepping on each others toes. They are within 1 inch in length of each other, both offer essentially the same power/powertrain. I honestly believe the TL is the better car IMO. I think the same could be said of Infiniti's lineup. The G and M are different, but the M isn't really much of a flagship. I think they need to resurrect the Q as a former flagship. My $.02

[mmarshall]

Originally Posted by Hoovey2411

I think for starters, If Acura wants to be a Tier 1 player, they need to have a flagship that is more distinctive than its sibling. Both the current RL and TL seem to be stepping on each others toes. They are within 1 inch in length of each other, both offer essentially the same power/powertrain. I honestly believe the TL is the better car IMO.

The RL, despite a more or less similiar V6/SH-AWD powertrain, is far superior to the TL in several ways. The RL's interior is noticeably more plush (especially since the new TL interior was cheapened over its predessor). Its sheet metal, doors, and hardware, unlike the TL's, are tank-solid. Even the paint job seems to be better. And, the most obvious one.....though styling is a subjective matter, most people think the RL is not anywhwre near as ugly as the new TL.

[IS350jet]

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

Facts are bashing? Don't start flames and accuse people of bashing when they r not.
No one said the engines were bad. They r solid. They r also outmuscled and offer much less efficiency than Lexus and even Infiniti.

You also r not mentioning the 306hp engine is a 3.7 liter not a 3.5 so it's bigger but offers no more power than Lexus and less than Infiniti.

Awd hurts mpg but it should not be a cop out. The GS AWD is more efficient and a full second faster 0-60.

Now that's what I call technology and "advance".

Just for comparisons sake the balls out 5.0 liter 416hp IS-F gets the same mpg as the 300hp 3.7 RL.

That's genius.

Just trying to point out the fact that many people here criticize (not bash, okay?) Acura for having an underwhelming engine. The fact is, it is HP competitive even without DI or DOHC's Yes, it is a 3.7 but even the 3.5 RL had 290HP nix DOHC and DI. The point is, it takes Lexus and Infiniti DI to squeeze that much HP out of their engines. Honda can do it without DI. Truly, if Acura goes DI in the TL, it will have class leading HP that Lexus or Infiniti can't touch, at least not yet.
Now only if Acura/Honda would build a decent 6 or 7 speed tranny to go along with it.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by GSteg

Disadvantage in complexity and valvetrain weight? If anything, SOHC has the advantage there. Less parts and friction is an advantage to any engine.

Sorry, I should of explained better. Yes the SOHC is cheaper and has few parts, but it also produces less power at high RPMs.

A SOHC or single overhead camshaft engine uses a single camshaft on the head to lift all the valves, whereas in a DOHC or double overhead camshaft head, two camshafts are used to lift the valves (a camshaft each for intake and exhaust valves).

A DOHC layout is better than a SOHC layout in many ways- in DOHCs, the valve timing is more precise, and better valve lift is achieved. also, a DOHC setup eliminates the need for rocker arms, hence creating better timing, and valve contact is more direct too. A SOHC layout, when tuned, can be as efficient as a DOHC, but with similar tuning, DOHCs always achieve more power than SOHCs.

We can have some of the folks with better mechanical engineering backgrounds add some additional info on the subject too.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by IS350jet

Just trying to point out the fact that many people here criticize (not bash, okay?) Acura for having an underwhelming engine. The fact is, it is HP competitive even without DI or DOHC's Yes, it is a 3.7 but even the 3.5 RL had 290HP nix DOHC and DI. The point is, it takes Lexus and Infiniti DI to squeeze that much HP out of their engines. Honda can do it without DI. Truly, if Acura goes DI in the TL, it will have class leading HP that Lexus or Infiniti can't touch, at least not yet.
Now only if Acura/Honda would build a decent 6 or 7 speed tranny to go along with it.

Okay it's not bashing ACURA, but you've pointed out above the lack of premium car engine and drivetrain features expected in tier 1 cars, so I'll recap:

. lacking DOHC (see my post above why SOHC results in less power)
. lacking DI (and the power and fuel efficiency that goes with DI)
. lacking 6/7/8 speed auto trannys
. lacking RWD option
. lacking V8 option
. lacking tasteful styling

There is the Readers Digest version, enough of the Acura excuses.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by 06TLDude

For a brand that's supposedly irrelevant you guys sure do spend a lot of time talking about them.

CHIT CHAT is often irrelevant, no big deal. Don't expect much meat here about Lexus cars, you will find that in the other sections (which by the way have very good model-specific information that can be very helpful to owners).

[FKL]

The interior of the new TL sucks too. I don't see how anybody could seriously defend the hard cheap plastics they use. Doesn't feel luke a car in the same class as a 3series or A4 - just feels cheaper

[GSteg]

Originally Posted by IS-SV

Sorry, I should of explained better. Yes the SOHC is cheaper and has few parts, but it also produces less power at high RPMs.

If the duration valve lift and duration are the same on a SOHC and DOHC engine, it wouldn't really matter stock for stock. DOHC advantage comes in handy once you start factoring tuning and such. You can advance/retard timing one cam independent of the other. You can't do that with SOHC. But no Lexus or Acura owners (save for the TSX and such) are going to be playing around with their cam gears. SOHC is not a limitation at all, at least at these power levels.

A SOHC or single overhead camshaft engine uses a single camshaft on the head to lift all the valves, whereas in a DOHC or double overhead camshaft head, two camshafts are used to lift the valves (a camshaft each for intake and exhaust valves).

A DOHC layout is better than a SOHC layout in many ways- in DOHCs, the valve timing is more precise, and better valve lift is achieved. also, a DOHC setup eliminates the need for rocker arms, hence creating better timing, and valve contact is more direct too. A SOHC layout, when tuned, can be as efficient as a DOHC, but with similar tuning, DOHCs always achieve more power than SOHCs.

Veyron1 made this post on team-bhp a few years ago. His post is more relevant to modifying a car. There is no tuning involved so we can't really discount SOHC when we're comparing cars stock for stock.

[IS-SV]

Originally Posted by GSteg

If the duration valve lift and duration are the same on a SOHC and DOHC engine, it wouldn't really matter stock for stock. DOHC advantage comes in handy once you start factoring tuning and such. You can advance/retard timing one cam independent of the other. You can't do that with SOHC. But no Lexus or Acura owners (save for the TSX and such) are going to be playing around with their cam gears. SOHC is not a limitation at all, at least at these power levels.

SOHC is chosen mainly for cost-saving reasons, simple enough.

Please feel free to believe what you want to. The experts know the difference especially with the precision variable valve timing systems that are used with many modern engines. Cam gears are not the issue. The direct mechanical valve actuation of DOHC is superior. The output numbers and the choice made by most premium car manufacturer to use DOHC (including Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Jag, etc.) speaks for itself.

[GSteg]

Of course it's for cost saving, no one said otherwise. That's how Honda has been saving money. As long as the engine can make good power, why wouldn't they want to save money? They've had this engine since the mid 90s and the design has been relatively unchanged. They are going to use this j-series block until the Acura brand dies.

Why is DOHC considered great for valve timing? Because you can have variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust side independent of one another. Going with DOHC is a matter of design choice (Especially if the valves are spead too far for 1 cam to actuate), not because it automatically makes more power (which it doesn't). But if a SOHC 3.7L can make 300hp+, is the SOHC really the limiting the engine?

<--- Mechanical engineering


But back on topic, Acura is in their own world so they can be Tier-1 if they like, but they wont be recognized by the rest of the world as a competitor to BMW and Mercedes Benz..

I really like Acura (well the previous models), but I'm not loyal enough to believe they are a contender to the big boys. They aren't bad cars at all, but they aren't great either.

[TwiBlueG35]

There is no guarantee Acura would become tier 1 luxury brand in the U.S. market if they offer RWD and V8s. But there is guarantee that they wouldn't if they don't offer RWD and V8s. I wish Acura would be axed and only Honda left on the planet. We need Fiat, Peogeot, Alfa Romeo more than Acura.

[TwiBlueG35]

Originally Posted by IS-SV

SOHC is chosen mainly for cost-saving reasons, simple enough.

Please feel free to believe what you want to. The experts know the difference especially with the precision variable valve timing systems that are used with many modern engines. Cam gears are not the issue. The direct mechanical valve actuation of DOHC is superior. The output numbers and the choice made by most premium car manufacturer to use DOHC (including Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Jag, etc.) speaks for itself.

Very true. People just don't understand that Acura saves money on area that others spend money on. People criticize Infiniti for its cheap interior in the first gen G35, but they don't know Infiniti spend money on its superb mechanical areas. Sure, Acura has nice interior, because customers can see and touch them, why bother spending money on something 99% of their customers would never see? Acura has been using that 5 speed automatic since long time ago. Plus, Acura's lineup is very blurry right now, size-wise talking TL and RL are overlapping each other. Now TSX is having 3.5L V6, so 200cc of engine displacement separates the entry-level and the flagship model? Acura needs to learn from German brands that their sedans are really really distinctive in size, small to mid-size to large to extra large. This company has been providing products since 1986, but after 23 years it seems to me their products have not improved much, and some are getting uglier. I really wish Acura is gone and only Honda left.

[GSteg]

Acura does have distinctive sizes. It just happens that the RL is the only one so far that hasn't gotten a new body style. I suspect that the next RL will be even bigger.

Acura cars get bigger...too bad their engines don't follow the same suit. A minor increase in displacement on an old engine platform doesn't really do the best for efficiency. Got to create a new engine with all the technologies available today to get the most out of the displacement.