MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

As many of you know, I am quite partial to the Toyota Venza- I love it. Even though it's a Camry underneath, I love the execution, design, and details in the Venza and think that Toyota did a great job. The creation of such a vehicle has me wondering if Lexus should consider something similar, or if it would ever happen as models in the Toyota lineup can tend to mirror those from Lexus.

A few years ago there were rumors of a new "JX" crossover that was slated to sit above the RX as a 7/8 passenger 'ute with more carlike characteristics. Lexus showed the LF-X concept which many thought would be a precursor to the JX but it never materialized. There have also been recent reports that Lexus has turned down the thought of creating a vehicle below the RX, even though the entry level SUV class is exploding and the RX is a tad too large to compete apples-to-apples with the X3, XC 60, and GLK.

My thoughts about the Venza and the current state of the Lexus SUV lineup has me wondering how an IS and GS wagon would fare, if executed more like the Venza than say, an RX or just a simple wagon derivative. Think of taking the general body of the IS and GS, elongating them a bit and adding a hatch with larger fenderflares, bumpers, and wheels and a few additional inches of ground clearance. Leave a face and details similar to the model it was derived from and name it something like "IS 350x" or "GS 460x". If done correctly, Lexus could possibly eek three rows out of the GS depending on how efficiently they use the space, and also create an exciting and very user friendly utility vehicle out of the IS. RWD standard with AWD as a popular option.



Blurring the lines between sedan and SAV has become popular with the likes of the R class, X6, 5 Series GT, ZDX, Venza, Accord Crosstour, and several others and I wonder if there isn't a legitimate business case to be made for Lexus to try it as well. What are your thoughts?

mmarshall

An IS wagon was tried about 6-7 years ago...the IS300 SportCross. It was a sales flop, and quickly pulled from the American market.



The SportCross though, was on a sport-oriented, RWD platform (the IS line did not offer AWD back then). I do agree with you, however, that Lexus should at least try a version of the FWD/AWD Toyota Venza. I specifically mentioned that a while back, in my Toyota Venza review.

As for a GS wagon, I don't think it would go over very well in the American market. Similiar-sized Mercedes E-Class and BMW 5-series wagons have not done well here either, although Audi has had a little more success with its mid-sized wagon line. But, even then, Audi's own Q5/Q7 models take away some of their sales....and, granted, a Lexus-rebadged Venza would face stiff competition from the RX350. I myself, though, would be personally interested in a Lexus version of the Venza, and would take a serious look at it for a possible sale. It would be like a super-luxurious version of the Subaru Outback that I like so much.

LexFather

To be honest the RX does this for me. I think thats one reason Lexus doesn't make one of these sport/hatch things, the RX is car like enough to fill the role.

Lets be honest, wagons do not sell for whatever reason. The IS 300 wagon is the only discontinued Lexus for instance (no follow up).

For me when I do start a family would I like to see a GS wagon option? Maybe but it would have to really be superior to the RX in sport, speed and/ or VERY Good looking. For instance I would take the CTS wagon over the SRX based on styling alone (let alone engine choices etc). I maybe be different but I LIKE the image of a wagon as its rarer and says "I truly was concerned about sport" instead of some raised SUV.

Seems carmakers think the cross/hatch is the future. Subie WRX, BMW X6 and 5 GT, Honda crossdresser and Acura WTF and Audi is coming with some. I can understand as they want to blend sport/sedan qualities with utility but it seems its skewed way to much to image/sport and not utility.

I just don't see a niche for it. The RX is simply a damn near perfect Jack of All Trades.

IS-SV

I am a fan of the Venza over the RX, at least that's my personal preference.

But premium station wagons in the US are a tough sell with mostly a poor track record, of course we can speculate as to why, but the past/recent results are pretty clear.

Given that Lexus wants to expand on body types, I'd vote for some coupes as a more lucrative route.

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

It will not sell in the U.S, but will sell well in other foreign markets.

teeder27

I imagine that either models in wagon form would flop in the US. Look at the Infiniti EX35 for example- they are trying to give them away right now because there are so many new ones sitting on dealer lots that havent moved since release.

encore888

I think a GS estate would be good for Europe, but frankly the RX covers the wagon thing right now quite well...a midsize sedan-based wagon would be a niche for later IMO. Right now coupes and a small crossover should be looked at first...plus perhaps a 7-seat crossover could be considered for the US.

mmarshall

Both, of course, are nice vehicles, and a Lexus version of the Venza would, IMO, only make it that much nicer. But, to be realistic, I wouldn't expect Lexus to do a premium Venza just because me and maybe one or two other people would like it. They, of course, have to look at the bigger picture, and if it would sell nationwide.

Well, as you note, it may be just speculation on my part, but, to me, the main reason that premium wagons don't sell well here is the preponderance of premium, mid-large size SUV's. Years ago, when large station wagons were driven out of the American market because of the CAFE rules, Americans increasingly turned to minivans and SUV's, which became the new family "wagons".....and the American public still has an attachment to them, especially when gas prices are low.

Perhaps..........but that's a subject for another thread. We won't go into that here.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I am not saying that Lexus should create their own version of the Venza, but rather apply the "Venza/Camry theory" to the GS and IS lines. I am also not saying they should build something that directly competes with the 5 series and E class, the same way that the Venza is not JUST a Camry wagon.

Something more like the old Audi Allroad- beefier looking, bigger wheels and tires, more ground clearance, but more user friendly and still an unmistakable A6 derivative.

LexFather

Funny but Audi no longer sells the Allroad here as they have brought the Q5 and Q7. What is interesting is your proposal sounds right up Lexus alley. Utility over sport and blending car/SUV features.

I was in a Venza recently and it was really nice and had tons of space. A Lexus version would be impressive.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I am not sure if I explained myself correctly. I am talking about creating something that is distinctly different from the RX or a conventional wagon- something more substantial and more differentiated than the old IS SportCross or an E wagon or 5 wagon.

Think of taking a GS or IS and adding a rear hatch, beefier bumpers and fender flares, larger wheels, more ground clearance, and slightly different exterior styling. Something that is not "just" a wagon but not a SAV either. Since they would be based on the RWD sedan platforms, they would be positioned as decidedly sportier and more "emotional" than the RX or GX. The Venza and Highlander/Rav4 are very different...that is the same type of difference I am talking about between a proposed "IS/GS'x' " and the RX.

If they could create a GS-based wagon/ute like I am describing and put two and half rows or 3 in it, I think it would be a sales success. I can see a harder time justifying one with two rows (theoretically IS based) because it would be similar in dimensions to the RX. If it were to be produced and sold it would have to be slightly smaller than the RX (as the IS is smaller than a Camry), much sportier, slightly less expensive, lower ground clearance, different options, etc.

Is that any clearer or am I just nuts?

92 SC400

I don't think the EX is a good example here. That more of like a small version of an already small SUV... It's not exactly a G35/7 wagon or anything like that though it looks pretty similar; wasn't there a thread here a while back about it being sold in Japan as a "Skyline Wagon" or something like that? In any case, I don't think that is the direction the OP suggest Lexus go.

Not sure how many people liked the IS300 Sportcross, well evidently not many, but that was always a car, maybe "wagon" is more appropriate, that I liked the looks of. Strictly from a sales standpoint, is there really a need or spot in the Lexus lineup for a such a vehicle? IMO I see this segment better suited for the European makes for some reason.

I really like the idea of a Lexus wagon/crossover though but I think first you'd have to convince all those soccer moms, and maybe just the SUV driving public in general, that they really dont need an SUV. That is probably the biggest obstacle.

Trexus

I think Lexus should bring back the IS 250/350 Sportcross wagon and maybe an "F" performance model and a hybrid as well (wishfull thinking). One thing it would expand the IS line. Keep it as a low volume vehicle. It would compete directly with the CTS wagon and the 3 series wagon. I'm sure it would sell well in Foreign markets. With the addition of the sportcross wagon the IS sales could surpass the ES sales and bring it up to the Infinit G sales.

I did help a friend purchase an IS 300 Sportcross and she loves it to this day. It's a versatile and functional vehicle. Not too big and not too small.

I8ABMR

based on how poorly the sport cross sold back in the day I would have to say NO. I cant imagine a GS station wagon ( or estate car for the europeans)

Rash

iTrader: (1)

It wont sell in the middle east.