CDNROCKIES

Ummm...Ron has one of the sharpest minds and senses of humor on here. Just because you don't understand his posts doesn't mean he has no sense of humor.

Total fanboi post with little regard for the real world.

Just curious...which technology do you own?

Mr. Jones

you're right about the ML 320 diesel being competitive in all areas especially with its 10 mpg deficit. No, actually it takes a serious fanboy to ignore that. Even the regular RX 350 gets the same mileage.

CDNROCKIES

Once again...I'll ask which one you own?

If you're suggesting that I'm a fanboi of either technology, I'll refer you to my earlier post....I don't really give a rat's azz.

It essentially comes down to which one the wife prefers. And if you think 10 mpg figures into the convo, you're sadly mistaken.

Both technologies have their merits and it is nice to have choices, like Ron so kindly pointed out for those that want to hitch their pony to one tech or the other.

The 450h appears that it will be a great vehicle for Lexus....but your post seem to infer that hybrids are the best and only option.

If you want to have the discussion on ML 320 Bluetec vs. RX450h, besides the points that have already been discussed on the tech side.....the ML also offers: more interior space, significantly better handling and suspension, and (arguably and subjectively) significantly better exterior looks.

Hmmm....seems like that it's pretty much a coin toss to me.

Mr. Jones

yes, I'm highly concerned about what you and your wife discuss, especially about your next vehicle purchase. I'm also sad to hear that I was mistaken. Personally whenever the RX 450h is passed over for the ML 320 I feel a great loss.

yes, pointing out people are amazingly b!ichy about a "trivial issue" and referring to them as fanboys is real friendly.

I am saying gasoline hybrid is superior to diesel.

yeah I'm not discussing whether the RX 450h is better than the ML 320 in any aspect besides powertrain. However taken from our friend Ron430 the discussion is trivial since the marketplace always determines the winner, no doubt who'll end up the winner here in N. America...not that crossovers are even popular outside of N. America or anything.

CDNROCKIES

Umm...again, since you continue to avoid the question it is obvious that you own neither and likely also haven't driven either. We've actually driven both and aren't basing our opinion on something we've read in a magazine or read on the internet.

Wth does this have to do with anything I've posted?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. There are points where the hybrid is superior, but when discussing the ML 320 Bluetec vs. the RX450h, there are equally as many points in favor of the diesel.

The only differentiation is where an individual ranks each of the criteria.



I'd sure like a peek into that crystal ball of yours for some investment advice...lol. Just because diesels aren't popular in NA doesn't make it a bad technology.

Like I've said all along, when comparing an RX 450h to a ML 320 Bluetec (probably the closest competitors in the segment)....both have their advantages and disadvantages. To suggest one is clearly better than the other is pure fanboi.

Mr. Jones

my opinion is based on official government data, or emissions and fuel economy ratings. Magazines also provide acceleration data which prove the RX 450h easily out accelerates its competition. It's also my opinion that the Saturn V is superior to the N1 or the F22 is superior to all other fighters, I've never piloted any of the above.

Exactly for those three reasons alone I'd say gasoline-hybrid is superior to diesel and diesel is a inferior technology. However that doesn't make a diesel-hybrid a bad idea.

The only thing the ML 320 powertrain offers is the ability to out tow the RX 450h based on an essentially useless figure as there are no official regulations on establishing a tow rating. Nor will I readily accept a cute-ute can tow anywhere near on par with a real truck, especially from a company that as far as I'm aware doesn't even build a light duty truck.

I'm also surprised you test drove a vehicle that to my knowledge isn't on sale to the public.

Let's see you defended another member pointing out how he kindly disagrees with others, which is false.

I've been reading C&D with its pro-VW agenda (and Germanophiles) for nearly a decade extolling the virtues of diesels, largely based on lies such as diesels are green. Diesels create less CO2 compared to gasoline engines which is not even proven to be a pollutant, however in terms of real pollution vehicles such as the ML 320 "Bluetec" barely meets CARB standards. Regardless the RX 450h creates less pollution and CO2.

I predicted 10 years ago diesels wouldn't succeed in NA and they haven't yet. I'll make another prediction diesels will not succeed in NA. America has strict emission standards and as I've pointed out diesels cannot match hybrid performance in any objective measure.

It also doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out the RX 450h will outsell the ML 320 taking into account the existing RX hybrid already sells 50% as well as the entire ML-class. The new RX hybrid makes the old one look ancient.

Like I said earlier, there can only be one winner, this is simple Darwinism. Diesels have no tricks left, hybrids still have plenty of progress to make, lithium-ion batteries and plug-ins are already fast approaching. In 10 years hybrids will emerge as the winner in NA.

bagwell

guys...nice battle....

mr ML320....don't forget about that great Mercedes reliabity....

I would never own one again...I don't care if they [allegedly] have improved or not.

IS-SV

The RX is boring anyway.

DustinV

Perceptions about diesel technology are actually changing globally. We have something called the Internet, which happens to be a great place to read and view reviews about newer vehicles for example. You can visit an automotive website and watch a specific video review or you can go to a site like Youtube and do the same thing. As I understand it, and using logic, this technology, the Internet, has helped spread a message faster and influence perceptions.

Out of curiosity, I was reading up on the history of diesel cars in Japan, which isn't much. The Japanese automobile industry offered several diesel cars in the 1970s up to the early 1990s, but since then the market for diesel-powered passenger cars has gone down to zero. Now, a diesel can only be found in a heavy-duty vehicle like a large SUV or a truck. However, I was surprised to read that Mercedes actually sold their E320 CDI in Japan with fantastic results. They were literally sold out within weeks. I found that quite interesting given the anti-diesel sentiments in Japan. How can we describe the success of this car in Japan? Were the buyers loyal Mercedes customers who didn't care what they bought? Or were they influenced by the Internet, a testdrive or something other?

That same perception change is taking place in the United States. I also believe that the whole "hybrid craze" did Toyota and Lexus well in terms of sales. Now, the hybrid craze has settled down and people are also more open to other technologies, including diesels for instance. There is still a market for hybrids, but there is a growing market for diesel vehicles in the US as well.

My experience with diesels has been limited and only with Mercedes diesels. In the early 1980s my father purchased his first Mercedes-Benz, a 300SD Turbodiesel W126 S class. I was in my early teens then and although I was interested in performance cars, like every other boy at my age then, I found the vehicle to be, well, pleasant. It was first of all very comfortable, roomy and once the doors were closed and the engine had reached operating temperatures, it was actually very "quiet" in a sense. Obviously it could be heard, but it didn't really intrude on your ears as say a truck diesel engine from that same era did. Furthermore, at low speeds and in low RPM that 300SD Turbodiesel could "sprint", as I like to call it. The car was sadly stolen in the early 1990s.

Then, my first company car in Germany was a 2008 Mercedes C200 CDI. It was the entry-level model of the new C class range mated to a 5 speed automatic transmission. Well, how did she drive? Spirited, quiet, refined (not as refined as the Citroen C5 HDi I drove) and very, very fuel-efficient. It was my first experience with a modern diesel engine and it was a very positive and insightful experience.

I also drove a new Citroen C5 HDi diesel and was even more impressed with that engine. I guess you could say I am a fan of the diesel engine, or I became a fan. They're great, they're powerful, efficient, getting cleaner and they are fun to drive.


As someone has already said, both hybrids and diesels are great technologies and there is a future for both. I personally don't like the way Lexus marketed their hybrids as "fuel savers when there isn't really anything economical in that sense about them. I've always wondered how the LS600h can be considered "efficient" when you're hauling around heavy batteries and an electric engine once above a certain speed with an already overpowered (and by design thirsty) gasoline engine.

Perhaps the new RX450h is a step in the right direction because the gas mileage is impressive, but the GS450h and LS600h might be low-emission vehicles, but to me their fuel economy still brings up the word "thirsty" in my mind.


Any roadtests of the HS250h yet?

bagwell

all SUV's are!!!!

ok, maybe not the Cayenne Turbo S...but I would never, ever own one.

Nextourer

That's ok, I'm currently contributing to yours haha.

Stormforge

nothing that a bodykit won't fix!

Btmnk21

iTrader: (1)

Here's a test you should try to verify if car exhaust is a pollutant...stick your mouth on the tailpipe and inhale...well? you there? hello? hello?

oh right you're probably dead...