CDNROCKIES

+1

Great post Ron.

I agree with you that it is nice to have choices. I never stated that one technology was better than the other, only that current gen diesels have made great strides. Diesel is currently about 88 cents per gallon less up here right now.

And to Nextourer....damn skippy....we make it so it should be cheaper here.

FKL

Let's take a 2009Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Quieter than a Hybrid? Well I guess not, there's a motor that's always running.

Cleaner? Let's look at facts:

CO2: (ton/yr @ 15,000 mi/yr):
TDI @33mpg: --- 6.4 -- EPA 29/40
TDI @40mpg: --- 5.3 -- AMCI 38/44
Jetta 5 cyl: -- 7.7 -- EPA 21/29
Fit: ---------- 6.1 -- EPA 27/34
Camry Hybrid: - 5.4 -- EPA 33/34
Prius @46mpg: - 4.0 -- EPA 48/45
Prius @52mpg: - 3.5 -- Personal Lifetime Av

O: (g/mi)--- FTP75 - US06 - SC03
'03 TDI: ----- 0.2
'09 TDI: ----- 0.4 -- 0.01 - 0.02
'08 5 cyl: --- 0.3 -- 0.6 -- 0.2
'08 Fit: ----- 0.2 -- 0.2 -- 0.4
Camry Hybrid:- 0.1 -- 0.5 -- 0.01
Prius: ------- 0.1 -- 0.0 -- 0.1

NOx: (g/mi)-- FTP75 -- Hwy
'03 TDI: ----- 0.7 --- 0.5
'09 TDI: ----- 0.05 -- 0.03
'08 5 cyl: --- 0.000 - 0.01
'08 Fit: ----- 0.04 -- 0.03
Camry Hybrid:- 0.004 - 0.01
'04 Prius: --- 0.01 -- 0.01

NMOG: (g/mi)- FTP75
'03 TDI: ---- 0.02
'09 TDI: ---- 0.012
'08 5 cyl: -- 0.004
'08 Fit: ---- 0.044
Camry Hybrid: 0.008
'04 Prius: -- 0.009

HC-NM + NOx: - COMP - US06 - SC03 (g/mi)
'06 TDI: ---- 0.748 - NA --- NA (federal numbers, no '03 avail)
'09 TDI: ---- NA ---- 0.08 - 0.12
'08 5 cyl: -- 0.002 - 0.02 - 0.001 (comp from fed)
'08 Fit: ---- 0.06 -- 0.01 - 0.01 (comp from fed)
Camry Hybrid: 0.01 -- 0.01 - 0.005 (comp from fed)
'04 Prius: -- 0.03 -- 0.03 - 0.04 (comp from fed)

PM: (g/mi) -- FTP75
'03 TDI: ---- 0.05 (CA @ 50k miles)
'06 TDI: ---- 0.046 (fed @ 100k miles)
'09 TDI: ---- 0.000 (CA @ 120k miles)
rest -------- NA

So not only is the 2009 Clean diesel significantly superior to the 03/06' generations, but at parity with the Honda Fit. This "clean" argument is valid, but the difference is all but negligible when the overall emissions are better than that of regular petrol engines.

Faster, you're off base. Compare the 0-60 times of a Prius and the Jetta TDI. There's about a 3 second spread, and that difference is not negligible.

prices, yes, I can say that, "even in America". Use Google.

And lastly, a turbo diesel tows more, has gobs of torque, and is generally more engaging behind the wheel than a economic hybrid, while achieving similar mileage figures. Again, behind the wheel of a Jetta compared to the Prius is a very large departure.

As I said before, both technologies have their place, they are both good for society on a whole. But to say one is better than the other hands down and the other has no place is beyond comprehension. It's nonsense, sadly.

Mr. Jones

there can only be one winner. clearly it is the hybrid.

bagwell

so the RX450h weight 4950 lbs and gets 30mpg combined....I wonder how much would the IS would weigh with the exact same drivetrain?

surely it would be 1000 lbs less = much better than 30mpg combined....DO IT LEXUS!!

RON430

Posts such as this do little other than to bait idiotic tit for tat exchanges. I doubt many of us have any interest in some meaningless concept as to which technology will "win" let alone believing that anyone here is the decider of such contests. Too many variables and of course, the US market isn't the determiner of technology winners.

Ultimately the market will decide. Hybrid is a great technology. It is also a very young technology, certainly compared to diesel. I am a supporter of both but I have doubts that diesel will get significant market penetration in the US. If the europeans had brought the diesels here sooner and priced them more competitively, and the price of diesel stabilized under the price of gas, it might be a different story. But for now, it is difficult to see it getting much market traction.

Hybrid is certainly a greater recent commercial success in the US but stories of profitability on hybrids is troublesome. For any company to gain market share at the expense of profitability is not "winning" in most anyone's book. The technology is quickly maturing as Toyota has said that it has reduced the cost of the hybrid by 50% in the new Prius compared to the outgoing version. So they are hoping that the new Prius will have a comparable profit margin to the Corolla. They don't report profit margin by model so we may never know and looking at company books now is pretty meaningless to try and figure that one out. And with new technologies, profitability is often strongly tied to volume and even the hybrids are having a tough time with sales so we will have to wait and see.

As a consumer, I definitely do not want to see diesel vehicles go away. For example, I believe that for utility vehicles they make more sense than hybrid. There are just people/companies that need those gargantuan pickups/vans for business and diesel is a very viable technology for them. And that is a pretty big market in the US. Look at F150 sales over the years, usually well up in the top 10 for sales until the current commotion. And that is a decidedly different market than the RX450h is going after.

I don't think it is necessary for the market to ordain one technology as the "winner". For any technology to succeed it has to provide the most widely accepted product solution at the best price point. And for many applications, the europeans have let hybrid get too big a head start IMO. In europe, hybrid isn't having quite as easy a time as it is here where the timing issue is reversed. I also believe that Lexus has had a particularly poor hybrid implementation strategy for cars to date and that hasn't helped them. The GSh and LSh are competitive when you look at the statistics but personally, I much prefer the driving dynamics of the pure gas versions and particularly the competitions vehicles over the Lexus hybrids. Whatever small difference there is in mileage for those two models is well worth it to me to feed the gas to a 5 or 7, S class, or A8. Mildly interested in seeing the HS once it gets here but why they haven't done an ESh wasn't exactly the brightest decision in the world IMO. But that is getting pretty far off topic. Back to the RXh discussion.

lex

I think you mean the RX450h...

SLegacy99

Diesels are cleaner, but their EPA air pollution scores aren't nothing to rave about, where in a hybrid you can. An E320 bluetec still only has a rating of 3, compared to the 7 that the E350 is rated at. So while it is splendid that diesels are releasing fewer tons of CO2, they still have a long way to go to clean up their act.

Second, and I don't doubt that this hasn't been said a million times before, I don't think comparing the Jetta a compact car to the midsize Prius is exactly a fair assessment. That being said, comparing the three luxury, alternative fuel SUVs is and the RX wins in everything except towing ability. I guess I could be biased, by the price and fuel savings speak for themselves.

bagwell

yep, fixed

For some reason most people think the Prius is a tiny car...the back seat room in that thing in huge even with the front seat all the way back....I was was really amazed.

Nextourer

haha. Yeah I remember driving across Canada last summer. I refuelled in Calgary for $1.28/litre and when I crossed the border, Revelstoke had it for $1.41/litre

Big Andy

It's funny you should say that because hybrids are 100 years old this month:


http://www.hybridcars.com/history/10...ent-25616.html

Just shows there are few new ideas in this world!

Mr. Jones

it's called a joke but some people have no sense of humor.

The American market already decided. But it's still pretty amazing people think someone is going to pick a diesel rated at 20 mpg over a hybrid rated at 30 mpg. The latest clean diesels are no match for the latest Toyota hybrids.

SLegacy99

Its got more room than a Crown Vic back there, it's huge. The first Prius was small so I can see why people balk at the current's size. People also see what they want to see. My roomate didn't want to believe that my Legacy had more legroom than his Legend...then we broke out the measuring tape.

RXSF

sorry but using the prius here is nonsense. seeing as how the prius beats the jetta by a whopping 10-15 mpg so i guess the 3 second lag is the blame for that. but what this thread is about is the RX450h versus diesel competitors such as the ML320 and X5 diesel.

lets take a look at that (for demonstration purposes, i will use the RX400h since there is no data on RX450h)

RX400h
EPA Mileage: Well 30 if we use the RX450h
Carbon Footprint: 7.3 tons a year of carbon
EPA pollution Score: 8/10
Annual Fuel Costs est: $1296
0-60: 7.3 Seconds (RX400h)

ML320 Bluetec
EPA Mileage: 18/24
Carbon Footprint: 10.6 tons a year of carbon
EPA pollution Score: 6/10
Annual Fuel Costs est: $1665
0-60: 8 seconds

X5 35d
EPA Mileage: 19/26
Carbon Footprint: n/a
EPA pollution Score: n/a
Annual Fuel Costs est: n/a
0-60: 6.9 seconds

bottom line is that when you compare cars that are actually in the same category, you can see that diesels still have a long way to go. im not against them, im just saying that they dont offer anything more than a hybrid besides towing capabilities in this case

Mr. Jones

towing capabilities = whatever the mfg wants to claim.
When Toyota wanted to prove the Tundra could tow 10,000 lbs they launched their Prove it! marketing campaign.

I remember seeing the local dealers Tundra towing a 10,000 lb trailer. I'd like to see someone try towing 7,500 lbs in a crossover with a suspension calibrated for comfort. Before it reaches 1000 miles the cute-ute would literally be falling apart at the seams.

CDNROCKIES

LMAO...the same way that I drive an hour west to ride at Kicking Horse and support your economy and have to pay 15 cents a liter more in Golden.

Trust me....I make sure I have enough gas to get back to at least Lake Louise so I don't get bent over.