thetopdog

The part you're missing is that GM has like 11 brands. So the Chevy Cobalt counts as a model that gets over 30mpg highway, but then so does the Pontiac G5 which is the exact same car. No other company has close to the number of brands that GM does, so of course GM has more models that get over 30mpg highway

FKL

No Sir, the only concievable miracle here is that the automakers somehow sustain themselves without recieving some sort of government facilitated help, however it is given. Just look at the scale here - We are going to be spending upwards of $1 trillion (and recent estimates are showing upwards of 1.5 trillion) to keep revolving credit markets moving and shore up banking balance sheets, yet there is really debate over a $25 billion loan to America's manufacturing base? I have to say, this is quite possibly the largest bargain of the century. You give them nothing, they enter Ch. 11, sales drop off a cliff, the liquidate. You give them this loan, they have a real chance of sustaining themselves to give them a lifeline until 2010 when their new models are released. It seems relatively simple to me, yet some people want ot turn this into a partisan and anti-union roast, which is just illconcievable to me. Your "I hate GM" rhetoric has nothing to do with this. Your "the UAW are the worst thing to happen to economy" nonsense has nothing to do with this (not you in particular, but the general consensus from some). This is about doing whatever it takes to make sure the economy does not enter an uncontrollable nosedive. If the freemarket principles were to be followed and had a chance of actually taking us out of this crisis unscathered, you wouldn't see Paulson and Bush advocating government intervention in the banking industry. You speak of "taking a risk" on bailing out this companies, yet the risk that you and the other "let's see them burn" crowd are taking is to have the entire manufacturing base fall out from the bottom of the economy, and spiral downwards into an uncontrollable depression. The chances of that happening are far more feasable than whatever relatively small (in comparison) bridge loan you are giving.

CDNROCKIES

This is EXACTLY the rational that has put the U.S. economy in such a deep hole in the first place. A billion here, a billion there...it's only money right...lol...and it's never going to get paid back anyway, right? So why stop now? Solve the problem by throwing more money at it

The credit bailout started at $700B....then went to $1 TRILLION...now you're suggesting it may exceed $1.5 Trillion How is continuing to add to the total here and there going to fix the fundamental issues? Using this logic you can add all of the state governments that are requesting bailout money to the total, right?

Where does it stop? Your $1.5 Trillion is all of a sudden $2 Trillion. Keep making up monopoly money as your government sees fit and guess what your dollar will be worth on the world market and what ability the U.S. has to compete in a global economy?

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

I agree wholeheartedly... Look at Mitsubishi... One of Japan's largest corporations. Their auto division was in big trouble not too long ago, but now, it appears, without looking at numbers, that they are on their way back... They'll never be huge, but they are doing OK now, without any government bailout...

Here's the deal... the Aveo may appear nicer on the inside than the Fit does, and maybe it is... But in the reliability world, it is a huge POS... Certain Gm vehicles do have some promise, but most do not. There is not a day goes by that I don't estimate replacement of front wheel bearings and/or tie rod ends on a Impala/Malibu/Century/Regal. That same line of vehicle, if it was built between 1995 and 2002 and had a 6 cylinder engine, had about a 75% chance of having leaking intake manifold gaskets, roughly a $600 repair (if it was caught before the coolant leaked into the oil and spun a rod bearing)... I could go on and on about GM's lack of reliability, and I completely understand the downline affects of GM folding, but at the same time, it's too little too late...

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

Again, agree completely... I think we shoulda let em all fold...

Gotta cut the losses... and what's ****ty is that it is bad business practices that got all of these companies in trouble in the first place... had GM not gotten greedy with making a buck and actually spent a few more bucks on making their cars more reliable or a little nicer, they might be in better shape... Why would GM get money that Ford or Toyota doesn't?

They say it's just a loan to get them a short extension to stay in business... what happens when they go out of business? Do you actually think they will save enough to pay back the loan? Might as well just give them the money... I feel the same for the banks... those that got themselves into trouble should have been left to fold... not all credit and banking companies are/were in trouble - it's obviously not impossible to survive - many are doing just fine...

just my opinion...

FKL

Obviously you didn't take the time to read what I had written in economic terms. The $1.5 trilion estimates are coming directly out of the Obama transition team, a figure that includes buying up all of the troubled mortgages from the banks. That's why you have them scalling back that idea, becuase they know that would never sell. I'm not making these numbers up in some perverse way to sustain some agenda I have to make the $25 billion loan seem small. I cannot believe you would accuse that. And you also dont' seem to have a clear understanding of what got the economy into this mess, in fact what you are saying is absolutely wrong. This situation had nothing to do with lending out government help to banks. I am not going to sit here and explain it to you, you can go do that yourself.

Try guessing how well America will be able to compete in the global economy when our manufacturing base falls out from under us, when GDP falls to record lows, when unemployment skyrockets into the stratosphere, when the economy is no longer in a recession, but a depression. You don't seem to be completely up to par on the realities of this situation, so I won't waste any more of my time, I made every point I could have made.

CDNROCKIES

Dude you need to get your emotions in check and think a little clearer. It's obvious that you support the bailout...I frankly don't care either way as it's not MY tax dollars paying for it. In no way did I ever suggest that you had any agenda, hidden or otherwise? I have followed the developing mess that your economy has become intently, and while I don't profess to be an expert on the matter, I do have an understanding that doesn't deserve your disrespectful venting.

The point that I was making is that at what point do the bailouts and excessive spending stop? And how does an economy deal with loans that they know will never be paid back in the first place?

You have your opinion...allow others to have their's as well

8speed

Regardless of what you think, I disagree....and all the inane economic rhetoric and local community college night school jargin isn't going to pursuade me otherwise! And from the articles and interviews on CNBC, and overall knowledge of what I have seen happen over the course of my life, I am just as qualified to formulate my opinion as the next American! And to no disrespect to you, I believe the opinions expressed below are the overall sentiment from Americans regarding the US auto industry regardless of what you may think or how bad you want to force-feed your political and financial ethics down peoples throat. (chief financial correspondant and pullitzer prize winning economic journalist):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvi6B3pgrXs

8speed

LOL...classic!

SoCalSC4

Agreed. People I know in the car business concur that GMs current offerings aren't really better than their older stuff, they are just "less bad."

New tagline: "GM: striving for mediocrity."

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i agree EPA rating doesn't necessarily correlate with real driving, however i disagree it's useless though. i actually think it's a good way to compare between cars. coz' all the EPA ratings are achieved with same setup, so it's truly comparable

real life numbers could be so deceiving it's not close to be meaningful. even with for example gs350, you get people saying from 19mpg to 30mpg easy.

so in that sense, i am pretty happy with the EPA system. not for the numbers but for comparisons

I8ABMR

capitalism says GM should fade away. They lost. Bottom line. Nobody would bail us out or give us huge lines of credit after making repated bad decsions

GlobeCLK

iTrader: (5)

OK I'm no economic expert but here's my take from a non-pro point of view.

GM grew really big while the competition was getting stronger. Now GM makes many undesirable products and no one wants them. So the company is going out of business. Billions of dollars of income will be lost if all these people have no jobs.

Now let's say the government bails GM out with a bunch of money. How much longer can GM last? 6 months? So they're going to churn out a whole line of desirable cars trucks and SUVs within 6 months? I think not. I know not.


I don't think GM should be bailed out. FKL don't get crazy on me. But obviously that's money going down the drain. Just look at what Mr. Waggoner said, he STILL doesn't think that the problem with GM is their ****ty cars! Even if we give them one-huunndrreeeed-biillllllion dollars (Dr. Evil terminology) it's not going to help.

Might as well give everyone in the country some allowance money (like the economic stimulus a while ago).


Sad to say, but the US economy (and the whole world IMO) seems to be in a depression already. Ya if GM fails it'll impact the GDP and send people into poverty and yada yada. Well it's coming sooner or later, it's unfortunate that one of the largest corporations in the US with this many employees has to go under. But it's even MORE unfortunate that the US economy actually relies on such a failing company that offers less-than-desirable stuff.

As Yoda would say, inevitable, GM's going under is.

Dave600hL

I totally agree!

I think you guys would be better off giving the 25 billion to the people who may lose their jobs while things sort themselves out. (Of corse I am joking)

nabbun

it all comes down to this, every car manufacturer knows how to make 40, 50 and even 60 mpg cars.

As a matter of fact, most of them already do.

They just don't make/bring them here.

The problem?

Most Americans need those cars but don't want to buy them.

They look at this



and say this



we would all rather be driving bigger and nicer cars