RON430

I have been thinking about starting this thread for some time. If it does what I hope it does, maybe it can earn a sticky. In any event, I want it all. I want better mileage in a luxury/sport sedan (L/SS for lack of a better acronym). Before the usual posts, by default, I am saying that I am not interested in either the GSh or LSh. The GSh just doesn't do it for me and the LSh has what, at least to me, is a rarity in Lexus - a poor value with not acceptable mileage for the future. Besides, I am tired of Lexus handling, I am looking for something better out of the box without trying to make the LSh and GSh what I feel they should be. So, having said that, I don't mind a future Lexus model but the current offerings don't offer the handling I am interested in and are very marginal not acceptable to me on the mpg front.

So what I am looking for is a clearing house for information on the what and when of offerings that are going to catch up with the reality of gas prices specifically in the L/SS class. I am not interested in a Prius or the Lexus rebadge in all honesty. I don't mind people getting into the smaller models but I am a big old fart with a bad back so GS/5/E/A6/M/ and maybe XF are the minimum size. I am actually more interested in the LS/7/S/A8 size but this thread shouldn't just be for me. I recently had a brand new (I mean something like 800 miles on it) Camry LE 4 cylinder while my GS was in for three weeks for body work. I am not interested in participating in delusions about my or anyone else's average commute. The Camry was rated at 21/31 EPA and I got 21.5 overall on three tanks of gas. So let's forget about the highway mileage shall we. I know that will muddle up hybrids but for them, let's take the lower number and for everything else, let's only use the city mileage numbers. I am sure that the vast majority of you get 27 mpg with your GS4 on your daily commute but my 2k1 GS430 gets 18-19 overall. And to tell you the truth, I am a lot more happy with it after having the Camry, big step down for not that much mileage improvement IMO.

Now there may be some great 80 inch wheelbase Kia coming out but I am interested in Luxury class and Sport Sedan Class so let's forget the pocket cars and econo squeeze boxes. What I really am interested in is what is on the horizon, what will be the technology features, expected mileage, and most important, when. I have a seven year old GS and I would be replacing it right now but nothing out there impresses me as offering the same size or larger with better mileage. It is interesting for me to see a supposedly "simplified" interior on the upcoming 7. I look around the drivers seat of my old GS and wonder what controls I really need to drive the thing beyond what this 7 year old GS has. I would like to add a backup camera on my next cars and that may mean navi but I can take or leave navi.

Now here is the kind of exchange I am hoping we can get going. I am watching a couple of cars now and hoping they start delivering what I am looking for. First up is the new 7. It should be here very shortly. I know the twin turbo 8 is going to have more power than the current 8 but if they can drag some more mpg out of that car, I just might go for it. I haven't found much on what the expected mileage will be on it. If it is in the teens, I will pass. If I keep it for another seven years, hard to say that about a bimmer without giggling, the price of gas won't be pretty. So what am I looking for in that size vehicle. I had decided a little while ago I wanted at least 24 mpg for something that large. And that would be city mileage. I doubt the new turbo'd 8 is going to be close to that but I will wait to see. Reality may force me to lower that requirement but I don't know at this point. It is frustrating to see what the high tech diesels do in Europe on these large size cars knowing that we aren't going to see them very soon.

The second car is the Panamera. OK, the looks may not be what will get the notepads flipping in study hall for you high schoolers but Porsche ride/handling is right up there for best in class. As far as I know they are talking about a V6, some sort of V8s (probably pumped up in at least one version), and a V6-hybrid. I forget when it will be here but I think we are down to less than a year but that will doubtless not be the hybrid. Anyone know when that will be available? The other thing about Porsche is that they are one of the few brands where Lexus doesn't have any advantage in build quality and reliability IMO. I may not go for Porsche very much, never did like hanging the engine behind the rear wheels on the 911, but I am amazed how reliable they are. I even know guys who wouldn't qualify for mechanically adept status and even they can work on older Porsches and not bugger them up.

In a generic sense, I was pretty interested in the high tech diesels but the price of diesel has taken some of that advantage away. But regardless of that, the usual european suspects that have the bloody cars available don't seem to be any rush to get them to the US. They seem to have talked themselves into the belief that they won't sell because of the price of diesel here and their understanding that Americans would rather walk barefoot than drive a diesel. Well, I am on American that would be a serious purchaser of a diesel for many reasons and I think the economic numbers still work out in the diesel favor. Look, there is no doubt in my mind that we will be seeing smaller and less powerful cars to get the mileage up in the future. The high tech diesel can still get into the high 20s and 30s for mileage (demonstrated fact in Europe) still with acceptable performance and not much of a price premium but the usual European suspects that have them (BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and even Jag) just don't seem to have any interest in bringing them here. I am less interested in people's opinions of diesels than any info anyone might have seen or know about the plans to get them here in L/SS. I don't feel like waiting five years for another car.

There is a rather long winded and rambling but very incomplete way is what I would like to see discussed and shared in this thread. As I said, I am less interested in anyone's need to trash any particular brand or technology than just hearing what anyone may have to share about higher mileage offerings in the Luxury/Sport Sedan class. And I really don't need to have the Study Hall boys post that anyone that can afford an $80,000+ car isn't interested in mileage. That's a juvenile statement and I am here to say that I, for one, would go out and write the check for a 7 series that got 30mpg today. Maybe no one is interested in this thread but I hope that is not the case. Once again, rather than endless bickering I am just interested in any intel that anyone has on what and especially when, higher mileage more efficient vehicles are coming along in the L/SS class. And discussing the options in the slightly longer time frame for more sophisticated offerings. Hope some of you guys can offer hope to the frustrated.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Hmm, I'm actually facing a similar dilemma to yours, that is replacing my GS, or maybe keeping my GS and replacing my LS. Except I dont have enough fat in my checkbook to buy a 7 series outright, and I really dont care about fuel economy. Seriously, I have the same car as you, and I average about 15mpg in the city and 28-30mpg on the highway. Well, my old Honda Civic used to average about 25 in the city and 30 on the highway, but it weighted a little more than half of what GS weights and its power output was pathetic. So if you consider that, then the GS is actually more fuel efficient.

See, there's no magic technology that will make ICE (internal combustion engines) become more efficient. The current technology pretty much perfected them, and theres only so much energy that is stored and can be released from gasoline. I belive that hybrid technology is the only short term answer. It does help to regenerate some of the otherwise lost energy, and electric motor assist really saves fuel in the city and stop and go traffic. There are a few other technologies in the works that might improve fuel economy a little bit, for instance the pretty fresh direct injection still has room to improve, and Honda is suposedly working on the HCCI... but they are working on the next NSX as well

But these technologies can only do so much. Understand, you will not see a 40mpg car that weights 5,000 lbs and produces nearly 400hp.

As far as diesels go, yeah, they are more economical, but modern diesels are more complex and less reliable, thats besides the fact that they produce a lot of noise and emissions that are unfit for luxury cars. Not to mention that diesel costs more than gasoline. I know I did this before, but I'm going to do it again, quote an old post made by a fellow member on a Honda board. The post is from mid 2006, so the quited fuel prices are no longer factual, but the point still stands.


Now, I'm not trying to make it into another diesel vs petrol post, really. Just pointing out that diesels has its drawbacks, and its not the answer. A diesel engine is still a ICE, which is inherently inefficient because a large amount of energy is wasted for heat and friction. And very complex cooling, intake, and exaust systems have to be implemented, each one of which has a ton of subsystems and components. Not even to mention the whole process that is required to put gas into your car, from discovering the oil, drilling, pumping, transporting, refining, transporting gasoline to the gas stations... What a complex and wasteful process.

Then you have these ridiculous technologies such as hydrogen, compressed air, and some other oxymoronic nonsense. I'm not even going to explain why these systems are retarded, anyone with half a brain should be able to figure it out.

I think the only ultimate answer is electric motor, with plug in charging system. Just think of all the avantages an electric motor offers.

1) It will weight less and require less space than an ICE with comparable power output.
2) It is a lot more versatile, and will allow for simpler drivetrain and transmission.
3) It will eliminate the need for cooling, intake, exaust, fuel injection system, and save a ton of weight and a lot of space.
4) It is a lot more responsive and powerful than a comparable ICE.
5) It is a lot more quiet.
6) It is a lot more reliable.
7) The battery will most likely take less space than a fuel tank.
8) Potential fire/explosion hazard is eliminated.

Now looking at the big picture however, this electricity still has to be delievered to the car, and unfortunately most of the electricity in this country is generated by burning fossil fuels. But if we build more nuclear and hydro power plants, we will have access to clean and inexpensive electric power, and reduce our dependance on OPEC's oil to the point that they will drop their prices back to the 80ies levels, so we can once again enjoy our fuel thirsty large displacement V8's

vraa

iTrader: (2)

Och kinda put it in a A vs B manner

But let me try my shot in another perspective
Once we move away from the internal combustion engine
We've just hit our efficiency point
Besides, I've said this before but here it is again, energy consumption isn't a bad thing!
That's how civilizations are characterized.
We should be working to try to harvest as much energy from the sun as possible, and then we will move to the solar system, and then galaxy

I think some people miss the point of the existence of life.

RON430

First off, as for the reliability of diesel engines, it depends. Go talk to a sailor and they will tell you that if they are heading seriously offshore, the last thing they would want is a gas engine. Diesels are inherently less complex than gasoline engines and if purpose built, are inevitably more reliable. They should be significantly beefed up to handle the CR. Some of the other advantages may not be as strong due to other advances. In the olden days, one of the reasons that diesels did better was that diesel fuel broke down engine oil much less than gasoline. So if there were leaky rings or just the amount of gasoline that finds its way into the oil when you shut the motor off, didn't degrade the lubricating properties of the oil like gasoline did.

As for reliability of bimmers, either diesel or gas, I will leave that one alone. I have been to Europe in the last eighteen months or so and have drive Audi, BMW, and MB diesels and they were flat out marvelous, all things considered. I really don't know if I would get one, but I would like the opportunity to go drive a US version and have it available. Right now. I also didn't mean to concentrate so heavy on Lexus in the original post but I wanted to get it out up front. I should also mention that the one other alternative that is here is a diesel, the E320. At 23/32 it comes pretty close to meeting my specs. I don't know what it is about the current E class but one time I get in the car and it seems fine, the next time it seems to have one of the worst and cheapest interiors I have ever seen in an L/SS. If the E is a possibility, it will most likely be the next E. And I have to hope that MB stays on the course to getting their reliability and build quality up.

As for future green options, maybe I wasn't clear in the original post but I want to replace a car right now. Many of these technologies are nothing more than red herrings right now. We are so far away from hydrogen that I laugh every time I see a commercial touting it. Fuel cells? With the exception of a handful coming in for the glitterati, us common folk aren't going to see one soon. I am really interested in what will realistically make it here in say the next two years.

A quick scan of some of the European car mags shows what is available their today, right now. I picked up a recent TopGear and went to the back for the new car section. Here is what you can get if you live in Europe. This is going to take a bit so please forgive that. I will post the model, engine (if it isn't obvious) and the TG mpg. Before anyone has to prove how clever they are, most everyone here knows these are based on imperial gallons and need to reduce them by about 20% to compare to here. The third number is 0-60, as reported by the mfr.

Audi A6
2.0t/35.8/8.4, 2.4V6/29.1/8.9, 2.0TDI/46.3/10.3, 2.7V6TDI/40.9/8.1, 3.0V6TDI/35.3/6.9, 3.2V6FSI/26.4/6.8, 4.2V8FSI/26.2/5.9, 5.2V10FSI/21.7/5.2

Audi A8
2.8FSI/34.0/8.0, 3.0TDI/33.6/7.8, 3.2FSI/25.9/7.7, 4.2FSI/25.9/6.1, 4.2TDI/30.1/5.9, 5.2FSI.20.3/5.1, 6.0/20.2/5.2

5 Series
520d/55.4/8.3, 523i/38.7/8.2, 525i/38.2/7.1, 525d/45.6/7.6, 530i/36.7/6.3, 530d/44.1/6.8, 535d/41.5/6.4, 540i/26.9/6.1, 550i/25.9/5.2

E Class
200/34.4/9.1, 220Cdi/44.8/8.4, 280/33.1/7.3, 280CDi/39.2/7.6, 320CDi/38.7/6.8, 350/29.1/6.9, 500/24.6/5.3, 63/19.8/4.5

S Class
280/28.5/7.3, 320CDi/34.0/7.5, 350/28.0/7.2, 500/24.1/5.6, 63/19.0/4.6, 600/19.8/4.6, 65/18.9/4.4

According to TG "mpg - Official EU combined fuel economy figure."

Of course I selected the models and made a couple of other shortcuts. If anyone feels like typing them in with all the specifics, feel free - I don't feel like typing anymore. I assume someone will want to debate the numbers by picking some specific model that they have a cousin whose brother knows somebody who dates a girl who has one. Save the space, fire an e mail off to the boys at TG and let them explain the numbers. Just as obviously, these are euro models and there can be differences in badging and/or equipment to a US model. For example, I didn't put up numbers for the FWD Audis once I got up in engine range, everyone knows Americans prefer AWD.

The cars above aren't in development. They aren't waiting for some technology breakthrough. They are offered right now. At least according to May 2008 TopGear. But all I am seeing is silence from the typical euro providers about all those great plans to bring diesels here. In fact, it just seems that there are press releases complaining that Americans won't buy diesels and the diesel is expensive. Duh. But don't solely focus on the diesels, there are quite a few gas engined cars available over there that aren't finding their way here. Lexus doesn't want to make an LS350 and MB doesn't want to import their S350, but they have it in Europe right now. To tell you the truth, this is somewhat exasperating. I am beginning to feel that all of these guys, Lexus included, are slowly GMifying by believing that their marketeers know what the American customer wants better than the American customer does. Yecchh.

Och

iTrader: (3)

That is true for old traditional diesels that send clouds of black smoke into the air. The new clean diesels are very complicated and much less reliable. And new low sulfur diesel contrains less lubricants than old diesel, so its harsher on the engine as well.


Yep, if you're gonna get the E, wait for the next generation, the current one is too long in the tooth. But quite frankly, if you're going from a GS430 to an E320, in all honestly its a huge step down. You're getting an inferior interior and inferior engine, and will soon regret it.


Thats why I insist that hybrid is the best technology available right now. I mean, take the GS450h, at look at it. I know you said you dont like it, but consider the following. It has the most advanced engine out of all its competitors, even without a hybrid option. The NA 3.5 is more powerful than Nissans VQ, MB's 3.5, on par with BMW's 3.0TT, and with direct injection its the most efficient out of them. Not to mention that it will most likely be the most reliable in the long run. Now add the hybrid option to it, and the amazing CVT, and you've got an unbelievable combination. You get the power of V8, responce of V12 with a fuel economy comparable to a 4 cylinder. Think about it.

With that being said, I hate the interior and exterior of the 3GS. If they kept 2GS exterior styling and interior build quality, I woud not consider anything else for my next car.




Well, and even in Europe the top of the line luxury models are petrol, not diesel. Mercedes V12 and AMG series, BMW M series, Audi S/RS. So you need to ask yourself, what is is that you want first, fuel economy or luxury.

And since you're pissed off at the Europeans for not bringing their diesels here, and seemingly not being concerned with fuel economy in the US, look at the only brand that is doing something about it - Lexus with their hybrids.

RON430

Once again, I agree with you on many points if not all. The modern diesels that I drove in Europe have none of the typical diesel drawbacks. There is no black smoke that I could see and no residue on the back of the car. Yes they make a different noise under acceleration but I am not sure it is any louder than the equivalent petrol engines.

And I put all the engines up for a reason. Just because the Euros have embraced diesels doesn't mean that that is all they have. I might be quite happy with a 735 or an S350 but I don't get the choice. And what do I see for ads? Well bimmer is going to get me a hydrogen car sometime at the turn of the century but bringing in the 735 is just not doable now. Ridiculous IMO. For that matter, the dimwits at Lexus don't seem the slightest bit interested in an LS350 or an ESh. The LSh at over 100K for low low 20s mileage doesn't do it for me in fuel economy or handling or price. Triple loser. An ESh might be in my garage right now. If only it were offered. Unfortunately for my Lexus dealership, the hybrids coming up that I am interested in are not from them. I don't know when the Panamerah(?) will get here but it would definitely be on my list. The Fisker is supposed to a) be out next year and b) be in the 80K range. My understanding is that it is a hybrid that can run on pure electric for a while, something like 60 miles if it has the full charge. Of course, where you are going to get the thing serviced and all the other car issues are unknowns. But it is much more appealing to me than folding myself up into an electric Lotus Tesla.

I still maintain, the hardest part in all this is figuring out will be here when. The current E class doesn't appeal to me very much and for as long as the E320 has been available, I have seen maybe three on the street. Not sure if that is good or bad. Merc has so many problems other than motors you don't know. Don't know your opinion, but the photos of the upcoming E class aren't exactly lighting my fire either. I will definitely look at it but it just leaves me cold. Then again, if they get the reliability up and have a higher mileage option, maybe it will make a good interim move? I am not convinced of that but I really don't want to drive my car for another five years. Nobody seems to be coming up with anything I didn't know about and that's a pity.

As for what I want, mileage or luxury or sport sedan handling, as I said, I am greedy. I want the best combination of all of them that I can get. Just looking like the mfrs aren't very interested in giving much of a choice.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, right now in the US your best bet is GS450h. It is defenately more responsive and faster than your current GS430 (I actually raced a GS450h in my 430 and lost miserably), so you wont feel like you've downgraded, and it will return quite decent fuel economy, while being even quiter than your 430. It's really the only luxury car, well besides LS600 and 400h, that adresses fuel economy while improving power and quitness and smoothness instead of compromising them.

Och

iTrader: (3)

As far as sport sedan handling, if you read the reviews it seems that 3GS does handle on par with the competition, just the steering feedback isnt great. But I got news for you, that is going to happen with all the manufacturers sooner or later as they are shifting to electric power steering, brakes, throttle and transmission control. If you ever drove a 5 series with active steering you would know what lack of steering feedback really means.

RON430

Well you can get them around here for a couple of grand off list which isn't bad. Problem is my wife and I just don't like them. If you have a second gen GS, the interior of the 3rd is a big let down. For me, Lexus handling is no longer acceptable so until they sort that out, I won't be back for a new car purchase. The exterior styling still looks like it needs a water pill to me. Other than that, it's fine. My wife and I both spent a fair amount of time looking at the GSh and the LSh and decided they weren't suitable. Besides, the GSh 22mpg is barely reaching where I want to be. Our service writer at the dealership recommended waiting a while on an LS as they sort out continuing problems. I don't have any problem with anyone deciding to go for either of those models, they just aren't for me. The GSh is only marginally better with mileage than my wifes 2k3 GS3 and with the Bilsteins and Sportivo sways, it is far, far more agile. The LSh is just not in the running for a lot of reasons with our service writer's warning being high on the list.

I really wanted to replace my car this summer and did look at the Lexus as well as BMW, MBZ, and Audi. Came close on a couple of them but the cost relative to the improvement in mileage or anything else just wasn't there. So I can afford to wait. But if I don't think anything is going to be out that will be significantly better in mileage, large size and 24mpg min at the lowest, then I might as well get something now when I can at least get a great deal (8K off on a 750 and 10K off on a S550 min) and hunker down again. Hence the reason for this thread. So far, we aren't getting any information that I haven't seen. There is nothing on the horizon that will be much improved within say two years. Really want to see the new 7 but I wouldn't buy any bimmer the first model year. And then there is the Panamera. And that appears to be about it. Bummer.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I agree completely on the interior and exterior, this is why I'm not getting a 3GS. But 22mpg city is right on par with the 4 cylinder Camry that you had, and the GS is a heavier, much more powerful car. Don't know if it will get any better than that.

RON430

Don't care about the reviews. If you go drive a 3rd gen it doesn't handle on a par with the competition. It is improved over the second gen but that isn't saying much IMO. If you want to go drive something that is a big surprise, go test an XF.

I have driven a bimmer with active steering and I didn't mind it. I don't think I would pop for it over standard steering but it is maybe a bit too maligned. Same with iDrive. No, I don't like it but I had a 7 series for the better part of three weeks and you adapt. I don't think you should have to and I am hoping the upcoming iDrive V2.0 is improved but it isn't that big a deal. It is a big deal if you spend two days with the car and expect to instantly be able to control everything, like a reviewer. That doesn't happen with iDrive. I wish they would ditch it but I doubt that will happen.

A bimmer with standard steering is so far ahead of the equivalent Lexus it is no longer possible for me to ignore. And I am at a point in my life where I am not interested in finding shocks and sways and bushings and on and on to make a car handle like I think it should. Rightly or wrongly, there is a reason why BMW defines sport sedan. They did in the past, they do now, and they will likely continue for quite a while although the XF is a surprise. But whether TaTa can make them a real car company is anybody's guess. I am still not that adventurous and as my wife and I both owned E types before we got married and loved them dearly, she still can't help but break out in uncontrolled laughter when I mention getting a Jag. Not going to happen very soon.

RON430

You might well be right. My wife's 2k3 GS3 gets around 20-21 and that isn't that bad. The new paint is still curing on my GS4 so we are driving the GS3 exclusively. That one will be around for at least a couple more years. With the mods on it, it is actually a lot more pleasant to drive than my GS4. She's got Bilstein HDs while I have sports and she has Sportivo Sways while I go back and forth between TRD blues and the Sportivos. My car handles better ultimately but as far as having a real eagerness when driving, the GS3 is better. And that's the reason why I wouldn't look down my nose at an LS350 or 735 or S350. But I don't have that option. This is starting to get depressing.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well as far as the handling, I really dont know what to say. I dont know how the 3GS handles since I didnt drive it extensively enough, but the 2GS is a disgrace compared to 1GS. I drive on I95 a lot from NY to Boston where my relatives life. This road gets very twisty in one area in Rhode Island, and its a blast to test your car out at the limits. My old 1GS300 took all these curves comfortably at 80mph, and so did my parents S500 and MDX. My wife even hit 100mph in the S500, but I dont have the ***** to go that fast.

However when I drove my GS430 through those curves, I almost lost control trying to take the first one at 80mph. I really dont know wtf is up with 2GS handling. See it also gives you a false sense of security since the ride and steering feel firm, but start turning and its wobbly with a lot of lean and no feedback. Not to mention the crappy VSC system that can be plain out dangerous, and the infamous shaking/vibration problems. I finally solved mine by putting on a set of 16" wheels, and I'm able to drive the car far more agressively.

All in all the perfect car for me would be a 2GS with 1GS handling and 3GS hybrid power train

RON430

I don't know what to say other than I believe that Lexus is aimed at a different customer than I. But I really would not like this thread to stop with just my tastes.

Unfortunately the reality is that we have gas pretty much within spitting distance of $5/gal, at least here in Cali and with all the protestations about where oil should be, I just don't see it taking a significant drop. And I believe the steady increase is inevitable. So we have three cars in the L/SS class here today. The GSh, the LSh, and the E320. Feelings about the individual models aside, that is about it. More hybrids, diesels, smaller gas engines, lighter vehicles, etc., are all possible paths to improved efficiency. But nothing is going to be here in say the next 24 to 36 mos. as far as I can see. Fuel Cells, hydrogen, cold fusion, are all great but they are much further out in reality. I guess I just have to hope that one of the car makers sees at least an opportunity and tries to address the market in less than a glacial time frame. As long as I get to talk about automotive annoyances, I am really annoyed that a majority of the hybrid technology from what I can see is going into SUVs, certainly from the US makers. I understand the value of getting something that gets 15mpg up to 19 but you aren't delaying the inevitable by very much. The auto makers are convinced that people just love their sport utes and there are fans. But come on, look at those recent sales figures. People will, and are, ditching the sputes with surprising speed to cut the fuel bill. I am not venting at anyone in particular and I don't expect anyone to respond but it just irritates me. I don't like sputes and I don't see me getting one any time soon. But I do like large sedans and having a handful of screws and struts in your back makes you also move slightly to the need side. Why aren't these guys as interested in bringing more hybrid cars to market in a shorter time frame? The rumor is that bimmer did the X6, start to production in 24 months. Let's not get into a discussion of the X6, I am bringing up the development time not whether you want a fastback spute. All of the auto makers need to spend some effort on their development programs and realize what the market is demanding. Maybe they need to fnd somebody who can think on something other than 7 year product cycles. Sheesh.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I dont think its the different customer aim, because the 2GS rides firmer than 1GS, but it doesnt handle anywhere near as well.


I dont know what this fusion thing is, but hydrogen is a waste of time and money. Small engines are not the solution either, the reason cars with small engines are typically more economical is because these cars are typically smaller and lighter. You put a 1.5 liter engine into LS460 it will be lucky to get 10mpg. The only real alternative is electicity. I mean the technology is there, electricity is there, its unbelievably simple. I dont know what the manufacturers are waiting for.

Well, the X6 is a bad example because its heavily based on another vehicle. I am personally annoyed with the car market as well, but for a whole different reason. Seems like cars are getting sportier and sportier compromising comfort, exteriors are getting more and more soapboxy and Bangled, while interiors are getting cheaper and cheaper. And electronnic nannies, especially throttle by wire are getting more and more annoying. If I had to chose from the current line up of cars, I simply dont have a single vehicle that I could honestly be happy with.