98.5 yrs to break even on 600h
06-12-08, 10:34 AM
#1
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
98.5 yrs to break even on 600h
[For complete article with chart on 14 hybrid models including the RX400h, go to WSJ.com]
Pricier Gasoline
Makes Hybrids
A Better Deal
Increased Fuel Savings Mean
Quicker Payback on Vehicles
That Command a Premium
By JOSEE VALCOURT
Wall Street Journal June 12, 2008; Page D1
The Toyota Prius, the country's top-selling hybrid car, sells for an average $22,939, compared to $19,231 charged for its gas-powered cousin, the Camry. But the Prius also drinks less gasoline -- which now tops the $4-a-gallon mark.
Herein lies the consumer conundrum. Which is the better deal: The more expensive car that is cheaper to operate, or the less-expensive car that drinks more gasoline?
Toyota Prius
It's the Toyota Prius -- but only if the buyer keeps the car for longer than three years, according to Edmunds.com, a Web site with resources for car buyers. In the Prius vs. Camry example, it takes three years for the hybrid's fuel savings to pay back the premium paid to buy the Prius instead of a comparable gas-powered car.
The Prius example comes from the latest study released by Edmunds that determines the length of time it takes to recoup the premium paid on costlier hybrids. The findings: The rising price of gas is making hybrids more financially attractive by reducing the amount of time required for fuel savings to pay back the so-called hybrid premium on many models.
In addition to the Prius, analysts found that the Nissan Altima, General Motors Corp. Yukon, Toyota Camry and the Mercury Mariner were among hybrid vehicles that offered relatively quick paybacks.
Of course, many consumers seek hybrids for environmental reasons that, to them, outweigh the sticker price. But strictly from a cost standpoint, the hybrid isn't always the best bet. Some models still have such big price premiums or modest mileage improvements that buyers ought to think carefully before buying. These include the hybrid versions of the Toyota Highlander, Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn Aura and the ultra-luxury Lexus LS600H.
Saturn Aura
"There are really only a handful of hybrids that may be good financial propositions for most consumers right now, and the Prius is one of them," said Jesse Toprak, executive director of industry analysis for Edmunds.com.
Edmunds' calculations focused on the cars' sticker prices -- comparing the amount paid for a hybrid model over a gas-engine version of the same model, if available. Then analysts factored in rebate offers on the vehicles, the gas mileage in both city and highway driving and, of course, the price of fuel, which averages $4.02 a gallon, according to the latest AAA figures. Also included in the calculations were federal tax credits, which can reach up to $3,000. The calculations do not account for differences in costs for repairs and replacement parts, for example; nor do they factor in varying costs to insure vehicles.
Even so, the hybrid option is a better proposition with regard to payback than when gas cost $2 and $3 a gallon, said George Pipas, sales analyst for Ford Motor Co.
Driving Up Sales
PAYBACK TIME
Hybrid models that took the shortest amount of time for fuel savings to offset the premium paid for the car:
• Toyota Prius
• Nissan Altima
• GMC Yukon
Hybrid models that took the longest time to break even:
• Lexus LS600H
• Saturn Aura
• Toyota Highlander
Source: Edmunds.comThat should help drive sales in the same way it has helped drive sales of small cars. "It was always the case that as economics made it more favorable, that demand would grow and go beyond those that were just curious or early adopters," Mr. Pipas said.
Consumers, Mr. Pipas said, need to evaluate their needs. They may find that a fuel-efficient, four-cylinder car may be a better route. "With a higher price of gasoline, it becomes a better proposition for the consumer depending on the kind of driving they do," he said. "That is one of the big things that is hardly ever mentioned. What kind of driving does the consumer do."
Martin Ball of Yonkers, N.Y., is looking to trade in his Jeep Commander SUV and buy something that gets better gas mileage. Among the cars on his shopping list are the Nissan Altima hybrid sedan and the Lexus RX400H, also a hybrid.
Mr. Ball, whose wife also drives an SUV, is leaning toward the Altima, partly because he finds it aesthetically appealing.
Mercury Mariner
"We're looking to get away from having two SUVs because of gas prices," Mr. Ball said. "We're thinking of keeping her SUV and having a car. I'm considering the Nissan Altima because of the way it looks and its price. It still looks like a car, and it gets good gas mileage."
The Nissan Altima hybrid paints a tempting picture, offering a payback in nearly four years. Buy an Altima hybrid and you get a $2,350 tax credit, which lowers the typical price premium on the hybrid compared to the standard Altima to $1,879, according to Edmunds. The hybrid gets 35/33 mpg in city/highway driving, better than the 23/31 for the gas version, for a savings of $499 if driven 15,000 miles per year.
A few models were in the five-year range of offering a payback of the premium on the hybrid version.
With a GMC Yukon, the gasoline-engine model gets an average 15.2 mpg, while the hybrid gets 21.5 mpg. That means the hybrid offers a fuel savings of $1,170 annually. So in the end, it takes nearly five years to pay off the premium paid for the hybrid model, according to the Edmunds analysis. The Mercury Mariner, a compact SUV, and the Toyota Camry sedan deliver paybacks after slightly more than five years.
Honda
Honda Civic Hybrid dashboard
In the six-year payback range is the Ford Escape, also a small SUV. The Honda Civic takes 6.1 years to recoup the premium on the hybrid version, according to Edmunds, but in this case the comparison was made to a vehicle with more features and options.
Awaiting the Payback
Other hybrids are hurt by either hefty price premiums or tiny gains in gas mileage. The hybrid versions of the Chevrolet Tahoe and Toyota Highlander SUVs are so much more expensive than regular versions that you'd have to drive them almost 14 years and 18 years, respectively, to see a payback.
The Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura hybrids face tough comparisons because the standard versions are so good on gas. The regular, four-cylinder gas models get 30 mpg on the highway. The hybrids get just two miles per gallon more, so car buyers are probably better off steering away from them.
The Lexus LS600H tops the chart among hybrids with a payback drag. The average market value is $102,423 compared to the LS460L, which averages $83,565, according to Edmunds.com. It could take an LS600H driver almost a century to break even.
Pricier Gasoline
Makes Hybrids
A Better Deal
Increased Fuel Savings Mean
Quicker Payback on Vehicles
That Command a Premium
By JOSEE VALCOURT
Wall Street Journal June 12, 2008; Page D1
The Toyota Prius, the country's top-selling hybrid car, sells for an average $22,939, compared to $19,231 charged for its gas-powered cousin, the Camry. But the Prius also drinks less gasoline -- which now tops the $4-a-gallon mark.
Herein lies the consumer conundrum. Which is the better deal: The more expensive car that is cheaper to operate, or the less-expensive car that drinks more gasoline?
Toyota Prius
It's the Toyota Prius -- but only if the buyer keeps the car for longer than three years, according to Edmunds.com, a Web site with resources for car buyers. In the Prius vs. Camry example, it takes three years for the hybrid's fuel savings to pay back the premium paid to buy the Prius instead of a comparable gas-powered car.
The Prius example comes from the latest study released by Edmunds that determines the length of time it takes to recoup the premium paid on costlier hybrids. The findings: The rising price of gas is making hybrids more financially attractive by reducing the amount of time required for fuel savings to pay back the so-called hybrid premium on many models.
In addition to the Prius, analysts found that the Nissan Altima, General Motors Corp. Yukon, Toyota Camry and the Mercury Mariner were among hybrid vehicles that offered relatively quick paybacks.
Of course, many consumers seek hybrids for environmental reasons that, to them, outweigh the sticker price. But strictly from a cost standpoint, the hybrid isn't always the best bet. Some models still have such big price premiums or modest mileage improvements that buyers ought to think carefully before buying. These include the hybrid versions of the Toyota Highlander, Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn Aura and the ultra-luxury Lexus LS600H.
Saturn Aura
"There are really only a handful of hybrids that may be good financial propositions for most consumers right now, and the Prius is one of them," said Jesse Toprak, executive director of industry analysis for Edmunds.com.
Edmunds' calculations focused on the cars' sticker prices -- comparing the amount paid for a hybrid model over a gas-engine version of the same model, if available. Then analysts factored in rebate offers on the vehicles, the gas mileage in both city and highway driving and, of course, the price of fuel, which averages $4.02 a gallon, according to the latest AAA figures. Also included in the calculations were federal tax credits, which can reach up to $3,000. The calculations do not account for differences in costs for repairs and replacement parts, for example; nor do they factor in varying costs to insure vehicles.
Even so, the hybrid option is a better proposition with regard to payback than when gas cost $2 and $3 a gallon, said George Pipas, sales analyst for Ford Motor Co.
Driving Up Sales
PAYBACK TIME
Hybrid models that took the shortest amount of time for fuel savings to offset the premium paid for the car:
• Toyota Prius
• Nissan Altima
• GMC Yukon
Hybrid models that took the longest time to break even:
• Lexus LS600H
• Saturn Aura
• Toyota Highlander
Source: Edmunds.comThat should help drive sales in the same way it has helped drive sales of small cars. "It was always the case that as economics made it more favorable, that demand would grow and go beyond those that were just curious or early adopters," Mr. Pipas said.
Consumers, Mr. Pipas said, need to evaluate their needs. They may find that a fuel-efficient, four-cylinder car may be a better route. "With a higher price of gasoline, it becomes a better proposition for the consumer depending on the kind of driving they do," he said. "That is one of the big things that is hardly ever mentioned. What kind of driving does the consumer do."
Martin Ball of Yonkers, N.Y., is looking to trade in his Jeep Commander SUV and buy something that gets better gas mileage. Among the cars on his shopping list are the Nissan Altima hybrid sedan and the Lexus RX400H, also a hybrid.
Mr. Ball, whose wife also drives an SUV, is leaning toward the Altima, partly because he finds it aesthetically appealing.
Mercury Mariner
"We're looking to get away from having two SUVs because of gas prices," Mr. Ball said. "We're thinking of keeping her SUV and having a car. I'm considering the Nissan Altima because of the way it looks and its price. It still looks like a car, and it gets good gas mileage."
The Nissan Altima hybrid paints a tempting picture, offering a payback in nearly four years. Buy an Altima hybrid and you get a $2,350 tax credit, which lowers the typical price premium on the hybrid compared to the standard Altima to $1,879, according to Edmunds. The hybrid gets 35/33 mpg in city/highway driving, better than the 23/31 for the gas version, for a savings of $499 if driven 15,000 miles per year.
A few models were in the five-year range of offering a payback of the premium on the hybrid version.
With a GMC Yukon, the gasoline-engine model gets an average 15.2 mpg, while the hybrid gets 21.5 mpg. That means the hybrid offers a fuel savings of $1,170 annually. So in the end, it takes nearly five years to pay off the premium paid for the hybrid model, according to the Edmunds analysis. The Mercury Mariner, a compact SUV, and the Toyota Camry sedan deliver paybacks after slightly more than five years.
Honda
Honda Civic Hybrid dashboard
In the six-year payback range is the Ford Escape, also a small SUV. The Honda Civic takes 6.1 years to recoup the premium on the hybrid version, according to Edmunds, but in this case the comparison was made to a vehicle with more features and options.
Awaiting the Payback
Other hybrids are hurt by either hefty price premiums or tiny gains in gas mileage. The hybrid versions of the Chevrolet Tahoe and Toyota Highlander SUVs are so much more expensive than regular versions that you'd have to drive them almost 14 years and 18 years, respectively, to see a payback.
The Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura hybrids face tough comparisons because the standard versions are so good on gas. The regular, four-cylinder gas models get 30 mpg on the highway. The hybrids get just two miles per gallon more, so car buyers are probably better off steering away from them.
The Lexus LS600H tops the chart among hybrids with a payback drag. The average market value is $102,423 compared to the LS460L, which averages $83,565, according to Edmunds.com. It could take an LS600H driver almost a century to break even.
06-12-08, 11:01 AM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A better place
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why did they look at only fuel costs? What about the cheaper maintenance costs of the Prius and other hybrids vs non-hybrids?
Looking at only fuel costs is narrow-minded to say the least.
Looking at only fuel costs is narrow-minded to say the least.
06-12-08, 11:22 AM
#6
Lexus Champion
People will tell you that the 600h isn't meant for economy, it's meant for power but then I have to ask why isn't it any faster than the non hybrid?
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
06-12-08, 11:38 AM
#7
Lexus needed a halo car to stack up against the A8W12/S600/760i and what's the best way to be different? For Lexus it's the hybrid technology and that's pretty much why the LS600hL was borned. Take both LS600hL's acceleration and FE and compare them with the competitors then you'll realize its advantage. To have the LS600hL in the same study as the Prius because they are all hybrids is like racing a F1 car with Charger SRT8 because they all have 4 wheels and V8s.
Those who think they are saving the planet by driving a LS600hL are crazy...
Those who think they are saving the planet by driving a LS600hL are crazy...
Trending Topics
06-12-08, 11:51 AM
#8
Lead Lap
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: CA
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to Edmunds, the Camry Hybrid has higher projected 5-year maintenance costs than a Camry 4 cylinder LE:
2009 Camry LE 4 cyl. auto = $4,232
2009 Camry Hybrid = $4,588
06-12-08, 11:55 AM
#9
Lexus Champion
Hybrids have all the same parts as their non-hybrid counterparts, plus tons more... and of course more parts = more things that can break... plus I'm sure more expected maintenance... battery replacement at 150k miles, at the very least. There's no way their maintenance/repair costs are lower overall.
06-12-08, 11:59 AM
#10
Lead Lap
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: CA
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
06-12-08, 12:07 PM
#11
Lead Lap
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: CA
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These kind of articles neglect to mention what is probably the most important component of the hybrid vs. non-hybrid buying decision, which is the type of driving.
For example, if you do a lot of highway driving (like me), there's no point in buying a Camry Hybrid. However, if you do a lot of city driving, the Camry Hybrid is definitely worth a look.
For example, if you do a lot of highway driving (like me), there's no point in buying a Camry Hybrid. However, if you do a lot of city driving, the Camry Hybrid is definitely worth a look.
06-12-08, 12:09 PM
#12
06-12-08, 12:10 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
True if they get a loan... though as the loan is paid off that initial equity (Whether retained or depreciated) becomes an opportunity cost.
Yep... I think I'd benefit less than a lot of people not because I do a whole lot of highway driving but because I'm a much more conscious driver than most people in regards up minimizing the use of my brakes. I'm currently averaging 26 mpg in our 4runner with city driving simply by coasting to red lights and not tail gating people so badly that I have to touch my brakes whenever somebody touches theirs or goes to make a turn or whatever.
These kind of articles neglect to mention what is probably the most important component of the hybrid vs. non-hybrid buying decision, which is the type of driving.
For example, if you do a lot of highway driving (like me), there's no point in buying a Camry Hybrid. However, if you do a lot of city driving, the Camry Hybrid is definitely worth a look.
For example, if you do a lot of highway driving (like me), there's no point in buying a Camry Hybrid. However, if you do a lot of city driving, the Camry Hybrid is definitely worth a look.
06-12-08, 01:42 PM
#14
People will tell you that the 600h isn't meant for economy, it's meant for power but then I have to ask why isn't it any faster than the non hybrid?
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
1) the pick up power of 600hl at high speed over 460l
2) the quietness of 600hl over 460l
3) the smoothness of 600hl over 460l
do you see 760i significantly faster than 750i? how about the s600 over the s63? from 0-60 i am guessing not much difference, but way to go from 80 to 100+? and how smooth and effortless the s600 is?
06-12-08, 01:42 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Its amazing how people take all this time to hate/detract from hybrids and they don't look at the whole picture, just their hazy picture where hybrids suck.
I don't recall ONE THREAD by anyone who bought a Leuxs hybrid bought it b/c it was going to be CHEAPER. THey bought it to save some gas and b/c it makes them feel good.
JOSEE VALCOURT should eat a hybrid battery for this article.
I am sure if the Germans came with these hybrids first, everyone would think they are man's gift from God himself.
I don't recall ONE THREAD by anyone who bought a Leuxs hybrid bought it b/c it was going to be CHEAPER. THey bought it to save some gas and b/c it makes them feel good.
JOSEE VALCOURT should eat a hybrid battery for this article.
I am sure if the Germans came with these hybrids first, everyone would think they are man's gift from God himself.