MT First Drive: Hyundai Genesis
05-25-08, 11:52 AM
#31
Another reason why I buy specific cars is to modify. I see a lot of mod potential in the Genesis. Often the higher end luxury cars are beginning to be very hard to modify. That could be anything from performance to the stereo system. I've completely ruled out a lot of very good cars simply because I know I either can't or will have a very difficult time changing the audio for example. I'm starting to use car modification as my bonding time with my son. It doesn't matter it it needs modification or not. I'll do it and try and teach my son a thing or two, and hopefully he'll get into modding cars when it grows up and spend all his money on that instead of drugs, alcohol, and smoking
05-25-08, 11:55 AM
#32
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Well, your point was that a potential Genesis buyer would more likely consider a Genesis over an Infiniti rather than a Genesis over a Lexus, BMW, & Benz, correct?
But yet in other threads regarding the Maxima, you have more or less said "why would anyone choose a Maxima over a G35?" the point there being of course, "why would anyone choose a regular old Nissan when you can have an Infiniti?" (aka a luxury brand over a regular brand). It works both ways. Why would any buyer with any kind of "brand sense" if you will choose a Hyundai when they could have an Infiniti for roughly the same price?
Maybe among those who care about status, Infiniti is not in the top 3 (although it is most definitely in the top 5, top 6 - Benz, BMW, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, Cadillac). But luxury is luxury and if it costs roughly about the same as other luxury, it's still luxury.
So, back to my original post, I can't see anyone opting for a "Hyundai" over a Lexus/Infiniti/BMW anything. Why would they, when they could drive a car from a "luxury brand"?
But yet in other threads regarding the Maxima, you have more or less said "why would anyone choose a Maxima over a G35?" the point there being of course, "why would anyone choose a regular old Nissan when you can have an Infiniti?" (aka a luxury brand over a regular brand). It works both ways. Why would any buyer with any kind of "brand sense" if you will choose a Hyundai when they could have an Infiniti for roughly the same price?
Maybe among those who care about status, Infiniti is not in the top 3 (although it is most definitely in the top 5, top 6 - Benz, BMW, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, Cadillac). But luxury is luxury and if it costs roughly about the same as other luxury, it's still luxury.
So, back to my original post, I can't see anyone opting for a "Hyundai" over a Lexus/Infiniti/BMW anything. Why would they, when they could drive a car from a "luxury brand"?
There is no reason to choose a Maxima over a G35. Less power, FWD, about the same size and the interior is similar.
With the Genesis, you can get a more luxurious interior, V-8 and RWD. It is a luxury car, just not luxury badged. Hyundai put their best effort and engineering in this car.
People will cross shop the Genesis with many luxury brands. Bottom line, those that are more respected, will be less threatened by this car. Especially when you consider this car is a value and INfiniti is a value. It will attract "Value" customers that want luxury features and a luxury car.
You are giving WWWAAAAY to much credit to the brand as it has made some amends but still is a small blip on the radar.
I am not picking on Infiniti, it is simply the truth. Being unbiased, I can clearly state that Lexus still has that issue with those that will buy German over a Lexus no matter how much more it costs and if you get less equipment. The prestige of BMW/Benz is still superior to Lexus.
I ask you this, if the Genesis was/is sold in Japan, would would you do then? It would be the Hyundai GEnesis vs the Nissan Skyline and the "Badge" debate is pretty much thrown out the window.
05-25-08, 11:59 AM
#33
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It depends on what the reason each person uses to buy a new car. I buy primarily on looks first, performance second, then reliability after that. If I thought the Genesis had better looks, and at least equal or better performance, I would opt for it over the higher brand name.
Another reason why I buy specific cars is to modify. I see a lot of mod potential in the Genesis. Often the higher end luxury cars are beginning to be very hard to modify. That could be anything from performance to the stereo system. I've completely ruled out a lot of very good cars simply because I know I either can't or will have a very difficult time changing the audio for example. I'm starting to use car modification as my bonding time with my son. It doesn't matter it it needs modification or not. I'll do it and try and teach my son a thing or two, and hopefully he'll get into modding cars when it grows up and spend all his money on that instead of drugs, alcohol, and smoking
Another reason why I buy specific cars is to modify. I see a lot of mod potential in the Genesis. Often the higher end luxury cars are beginning to be very hard to modify. That could be anything from performance to the stereo system. I've completely ruled out a lot of very good cars simply because I know I either can't or will have a very difficult time changing the audio for example. I'm starting to use car modification as my bonding time with my son. It doesn't matter it it needs modification or not. I'll do it and try and teach my son a thing or two, and hopefully he'll get into modding cars when it grows up and spend all his money on that instead of drugs, alcohol, and smoking
05-25-08, 12:20 PM
#34
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there may not be people that will choose a Genesis over a comparably priced luxury brand for whatever reasons that may apply to them, I just think most will not. I think for Hyundai to be competitive with models from Lexus/Infiniti/BMW, etc, they're going to need to undercut them significantly in order to really take away some sales.
With Hyundai, they are brand new into the game so I do agree they have to offer value as a selling point because they have no name recognition in the luxury market yet. If they are able to continue their luxury program for another generation or two with good success, then I think they can stop focusing primarily on value and start offering products that compete more head to head in price as well.
05-25-08, 12:43 PM
#35
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You cannot bunch ALL luxury brands together. We cannot put Lexus/Benz/BMW with Bentley/RR/Maybach. We cannot put Acura/Saab/Lincoln/Infiniti etc with Lexus BMW/Benz. When people think luxury in America, they think BMW, Benz, Lexus. Studies show Porsche is actually the most respected luxury brand by the wealthy as Chris stated in his post.
There is no reason to choose a Maxima over a G35. Less power, FWD, about the same size and the interior is similar.
With the Genesis, you can get a more luxurious interior, V-8 and RWD. It is a luxury car, just not luxury badged. Hyundai put their best effort and engineering in this car.
With the Genesis, you can get a more luxurious interior, V-8 and RWD. It is a luxury car, just not luxury badged. Hyundai put their best effort and engineering in this car.
I love have you have so much confidence in a car that's not even out yet, that hardly anyone has really seen or driven yet, from a a brand notorious for putting out crappy economobiles. Yet, you seem to believe the Genesis will be cross-shopped with many luxury brands. Interesting.
Bottom line, those that are more respected, will be less threatened by this car. Especially when you consider this car is a value and INfiniti is a value. It will attract "Value" customers that want luxury features and a luxury car.
You are giving WWWAAAAY to much credit to the brand as it has made some amends but still is a small blip on the radar.
You are giving WWWAAAAY to much credit to the brand as it has made some amends but still is a small blip on the radar.
You're comparing different markets. Toyota, the brand, also sells luxury cars in Japan. So what is your point? We're talking about the American market here. The Skyline is a higher end product in Japan. The badge issue seems to be more of an American issue/hangup than a global one. The Genesis would still be a Hyundai in Japan as it would here. The point is, Hyundai has not proven themselves at all with a car of this status. And you think the Genesis will be cross-shopped with "many" proven luxury brands? OK.
05-25-08, 12:54 PM
#36
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One thing to realize about me is I'm not too caught up about brand image so my view points and opinions may seem odd compared to the mainstream. I came up from nothing, so I have no problem driving less than "Prestigious" cars if I had to. I'm actually more of a sports car fan than luxury car fan so I'll sacrifice luxury for sport all day every day. I already think fully loaded cars like the Camry/Accord have more than enough "Luxury" in them just without the image and prestige. So, any dedicated near luxury or luxury car is well luxurious enough for me. The kicker for me is the one that can make them more sporty, more fun, and more customizable.
With Hyundai, they are brand new into the game so I do agree they have to offer value as a selling point because they have no name recognition in the luxury market yet. If they are able to continue their luxury program for another generation or two with good success, then I think they can stop focusing primarily on value and start offering products that compete more head to head in price as well.
With Hyundai, they are brand new into the game so I do agree they have to offer value as a selling point because they have no name recognition in the luxury market yet. If they are able to continue their luxury program for another generation or two with good success, then I think they can stop focusing primarily on value and start offering products that compete more head to head in price as well.
That's why I think the pricing of the Genesis will be crucial to its success. They can't price it at over 30k and expect to be competitive with proven, successful vehicles from other luxury brands. They need to seriously undercut the competition and offer the same features and options. Then, and only then will they might be able to compete head-to-head with the others.
I'm not a brand snob either and I believe in judging a product by what it offers rather than its label (precisely the reason why I won't consider a BMW for example). But we can't blindly suggest that this car from Hyundai will be serious competition to the established luxury makes out there. There's a good chance in my opinion that if they price it too high, that it could seriously flop and not sell at all.
I still believe that if Hyundai was serious about entering the luxury market, they should have established a new division. Maybe the Genesis is an experiment from them and eventually they will. But they can't go much higher with the Hyundai name. I just don't think it will work.
05-25-08, 01:05 PM
#37
They can't price it at over 30k and expect to be competitive with proven, successful vehicles from other luxury brands. They need to seriously undercut the competition and offer the same features and options. Then, and only then will they might be able to compete head-to-head with the others.
05-25-08, 03:52 PM
#38
I think Infiniti is definitely Second Tier, but their cars are quite competitive
and compare very very well against the Genesis... In fact many unibiased
observers (not me
) do prefer the M and G offerings to Lexus's GS and IS.
The Genesis will probably do well, but it will have to establish itself first and
that is no easy feat given the state of the economy. For one if AWD is
not offered it will struggle in the Northeast. Too many nice practical
offerings from other brands for less than 30K...
and compare very very well against the Genesis... In fact many unibiased
observers (not me
) do prefer the M and G offerings to Lexus's GS and IS. The Genesis will probably do well, but it will have to establish itself first and
that is no easy feat given the state of the economy. For one if AWD is
not offered it will struggle in the Northeast. Too many nice practical
offerings from other brands for less than 30K...
Maybe a high 5?
05-25-08, 04:48 PM
#41
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Today $30K is yesterday's $25K. You already have Accords and Camrys costing a few thousand over $30K and they are not even classified as a luxury car. Then you have most entry level luxury cars that start at or just above $30K. The Genesis is clearly a much more luxurious car over most of the near luxury segment cars. For a moderately or comparably loaded V6 version of the Genesis, it cal sell for $35K and be just fine. Asking for anything less than that is really just asking them to give the car away IMHO. A well loaded V8 version of this car IMHO should MSRP just a hair under $40K. You can't get a V8 luxury car from anyone under $40K, so if you can negotiate a price OTD of $40K for a well loaded V8 Genesis that is a clear undercut in price IMHO.
This car has more power than a GS or M45 lets not forget, hell it has more gears than any Infiniti or Acura currently.
I think the biggest obstacle is not really competition but the ECONOMY. Just a bad time to debut cars right now.
Let us say it does "fail" and doesn't do well. Like used Phaetons, Q45s and M45 1st gens, this car will be a STEAL for 20k in 2 years.
In 2 years, you might be able to buy a 6 speed 380hp V-8 luxury car. Wow.
05-25-08, 08:21 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
the genesis might be able to take away some sales from infiniti....... if the buyer needs the space on a budget.
the genesis will def be cross shopped with nissan's flagship.
New york is weird. There are more Nissans and infinitis than lex/toyos.
Why is that? Even dogs and cats drive altimas.
the genesis will def be cross shopped with nissan's flagship.
New york is weird. There are more Nissans and infinitis than lex/toyos.
Why is that? Even dogs and cats drive altimas.
05-25-08, 11:51 PM
#44
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the genesis might be able to take away some sales from infiniti....... if the buyer needs the space on a budget.
the genesis will def be cross shopped with nissan's flagship.
New york is weird. There are more Nissans and infinitis than lex/toyos.
Why is that? Even dogs and cats drive altimas.
the genesis will def be cross shopped with nissan's flagship.
New york is weird. There are more Nissans and infinitis than lex/toyos.
Why is that? Even dogs and cats drive altimas.
05-26-08, 05:45 AM
#45
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There will be *some* cross shopping between the Genesis and BMW/MB/Lexus. It won't be much, though. IMO, Hyundai's target market will be car buyers that *would* buy BMW/MB/Lexus, but just can't afford one. The Genesis is the perfect car for these people, and yes, there will be a lot of them.