Jujharoo

I think Japanese auto makers are going to be offering some bad *** cars in near future.

R35 is already being manufactured, so is IS F and LF A is on its way.

Europeans car makers are going to lose the lead that they have in manufacturing high performance vehicles.

what you think?

hapaboy

point me to where i can find out more about this "Gentlemen's agreement".

Jujharoo

I read an article long time ago in one of the auto magazines. It was basically an agreement between Japanese automakers to limit the HP output of there vehicles to around 280 HP.

I just googled it

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...rs&btnG=Search

LexFather

A couple things. I find it hilarious the first car to break the agreement was the Honda Legend/Acura RL and its no faster than an ES 350 and its a total flop.

Then came the GS/IS/Fuga/M35/45 Skyline/G35. Then the LS and then the GT-R and IS-F.

So its really a battle between Nissan/Infiniti and Lexus.

Nissan is just taking advantage with the coming 370Z, Skyline/G37 and GT-R. Lexus is with their luxury cars and LS 600h L and IS-F and the coming LF-A.

However, while the GT-R is simply dominating every review its in, the Euros will NEVER lose their lead. Racing and building sporting cars is in their blood, especially Italy and Germany. Audi/BMW/Benz/Ferrari/Maserati/Porsche etc etc, its just to many serious brands and too many cars to contend with.

Then you have companies like 9ff and Ruf and Alpina etc etc.

I for one think we are simply in the GOLDEN AGE of cars. Its quite amazing

Jujharoo

So is building luxury vehicles; however, Lexus's LS has achieved more in its 20 some years of existence than Mercedes hasn't in its 100 plus years of history. Sales, performance and luxury, LS dominates.

Same applies to GS. It out sold E class, 5 series combined in US

So I wouldn't doubt the high performance field either, Japanese car makers have always put out some impressive engines and vehicles.

LexFather

Sir, the LS has achieved a lot but without the S-class, the LS wouldn't have a "guide". The S-class has multiple firsts and achievements and WORLDWIDE outsells the LS.

The GS is not CLOSE to outselling the E or 5 in America nor worldwide. For one the GS is only sold as a sedan while the others have more engine choices and wagons and M/AMG models.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

There were many cars to break the Gentleman's Agreement well before the Honda Legend. The NSX, Supra, RX-7 all broke it in the early 90s. I'm sure there are a lot of other cars.

Jujharoo

The statistics I mentioned were from early 2000's (2002) Gs did outsell those cars.

Only because of MBs history it sells better on the worldwide market.

You can compare the reliability statistics, MB cars are below Hyundai.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I for one don't doubt that the Japanese can and perhaps will build the better ultimate sports sedan car now or in the near future. I just wonder who will it be? The problem coming from the Lexus brand is most of the American buyers don't want a car like that because it wont conform to the "Lexus Ride" that everyone is used to. The LF-A has a shot because it will be a halo car and only the wealthiest of wealthy would be able to afford one. For regular high end luxury cars though I would say Infiniti might actually be the first to rival the cars like the AMG/M cars of the higher models for the Germans.

LexFather

They never broke it. They were under the Gentleman's agreement, they all were listed at 280hp, no matter how much power they REALLY made.

The Honda Legend was the first to break it officially.

6/10 Japan,
Japan Automobile Manufactures Association (JAIA) concluded that the industry's voluntary regulation of horsepower to 280hp applied to Japanese vehicles will be terminated.

As many of i-clubbers know, all the Japanese cars in Japanese Domestic Market had the limit of 280 horsepower to its horsepower. As a standpoint of enthusiasts living overseas, it was the biggest mysteries of JDM performance cars.

-to be continued right after-

source: sankei news (japanese)
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20...17-san-bus_all
article: go go go
go go go
06-22-2004, 06:53 PM
The background of the 280 limit
The 280 limit came in effect in 1990 responding to increasing number of traffic accidents associated with high output cars. Also, the gentleman's agreement was there to avoid unneccesary unlimited power race between Japanese manufactures. 1990 was around the year when R32 GTR, 80 Supra, FD3S, NSX came out.

The reason of the termination
Being that the imported cars are not restricted, there were vehicles on road that were sold with more horsepower, recently 400 horsepower is not a surprise anymore looking at Porsches and AMGs. Also Japanese cars are sold more than 280hp elsewhere on the world. For instance, Lexus LS, Infinity Q45.
Considering the inefficiency of manufacturing vehicles in double standards, JAIA concluded that the gentleman's agreement is nonsense.
Another story is that there was opinion that the 280 limit is actually restricting the manufactures development. While foreign manufactures builds vehicles around their high performance output, Japanese cars were designed around the 280 package. The opinion was that development of chassis, brakes, suspensions, and all the other components were suffered from 280 limit.
Now, manufactures are freed to develop vehicles competing with rivalries overseas.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

A lot of people don't really care about reliability though to some extent. As bad as the Mercedes may seem on paper, they are not breaking down on the road every day. A lot of people may put up with their car being in the shop once a year to have a certain Mercedes Benz. I know I would depending on which Mercedes Benz we are talking about. Then you have to factor in those wealthy people that are buying these types of cars new will never have it past 100K miles or even 50K miles in many cases and probably will only have the car 2-4 years. Long term reliability means little to nothing.

Even as a Lexus owner who knows all about the reliability we get from Lexus, and know all about the potential for disaster there is when owning a Mercedes, I would take a CLK AMG55, or E65AMG in a heartbeat over most any Lexus offered today simply because I like those cars and that is really all that matters to a lot of buyers.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Well, what you put on the paper is fact I guess WE all know even their JDM cars made well over 280 HP no matter what they put down on the paper. The fact that the car itself actually makes more power but the window sticker says it makes 276HP doesn't really mean they didn't break the agreement. They broke it alright, just not on paper.

Jujharoo

That is exactly why most people around the world buy an MB, to make a statement.

Thou we are talking about who makes batter cars or build better ones in future.

Jujharoo

My old man has had MBs since 1978, he admits that Lexus cars are "smoother"

mmarshall

This was one of several things that also killed off the first wave of American high-performance cars in the early 1970s, along with increasing insurance premiums, emission requirements, CAFE gas-mileage rules, fuel price/availability issues, and a general decrease of public interest in these cars at the time. 20-30 years later, of course, fuel injection, computerization, and increasing technology allowed a second wave to start that we still have today. It remains to be seen what the latest round of CAFE regulations, emissions rules, and the skyrocketing price of gasoline we now have will do.