V8's luxury rumble grows fainter ...
02-01-08, 07:17 AM
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V8's luxury rumble grows fainter ...
Luxury cars ditching V8 engines ...
2009 Lincoln MKS will offer a hi-tech V6 engine, but a V8 will not be an option.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/29/auto...e_v6/index.htm
2009 Lincoln MKS will offer a hi-tech V6 engine, but a V8 will not be an option.
V8's luxury rumble grows fainter
Newer luxury cars are shifting toward smaller, more sophisticated engines for power.
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
January 30 2008: 4:40 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- When Ford's new flagship Lincoln sedan, the MKS, goes on sale later this year it will be available with all-wheel-drive, a six-speed transmission and plenty of rear-seat legroom. But one feature usually found on full-size luxury cars will not be available on the MKS at any price: a V8 engine.
That might seem a risky step for a brand that's supposed to be undergoing a renaissance, getting back into fighting trim as a true luxury brand. For a certain segment of the market, a big luxury car just isn't a big luxury car without V8 power.
But V8 engines just aren't needed in many of these cars anymore, according to Ford and General Motors. New, more sophisticated V6s offer nearly the same performance with better fuel economy.
"End-game performance when you step on the gas is what it's all about" said Alan Hall, a Ford spokesman.
The top-end engine in the new MKS sedan, to be offered within a year of the car's launch, will be a twin-turbocharged V6 with direct gasoline injection. Turbochargers push air into the engine's cylinders for higher compression and greater power. Direct injection pushes fuel directly into the cylinder at high pressure.
Combining the technologies creates more compression that allows the engine, Ford says, to put out as much power as a V8 while using only slightly more fuel than a non-turbocharged V6.
Shifting tastes
GM is already seeing lesser V8 demand in its luxury cars. Last year, they were under the hood of about 26% of Cadillac STS sedans sold. This year, V8s accounted for just 17% of STS sales, according to data from Power Information Network.
That shift coincides with the introduction of GM's new V6 engine with direct fuel injection that can produce a maximum of 302 horsepower compared to 320 from the V8.
Cadillac spokesman David Caldwell cites consumer interest in the technology rather than just fuel economy difference as the main reason for the shift. The V6 gets about one mile per gallon more than the V8, according to EPA estimates.
"I think these are consumers that are more technology-savvy than they used to be and they understand that this is a really premium V6," he said.
Other car brands having been seeing similar shifts, according to Power Information Networks data. Buyers of the Chrysler 300, Mercedes-Benz E-class and the Cadillac SRX crossover SUV, which all offer V6 and V8 versions, are shifting away from V8s toward V6s.
Luxury cars present an interesting case because their engine power is entirely discretionary. They won't be used to tow trailers, and their buyers aren't deeply affected by rising gas prices. They can afford V8s - it's all about whether or not they want them.
The broad shift indicates that an interest in saving gas is partly a consideration, said Michael Omotos, an analyst with J.D. Power and Associates. Improved V6 performance clears the way for customers to make that choice without sacrifice, he said. "If you can get 300 horsepower out of a V6, what's the point of going for 340 out of the V8?"
Meanwhile, the growing environmental movement provides an added push for buyers to move to smaller engines, he said, even if they can easily afford the higher cost and fuel consumption of a V8.
V8 will stay
Like Ford, GM is also considering a smaller turbocharged V6 engine in some Cadillacs. That would improve performance further and widen the fuel economy gap compared with similarly-powered V8s.
But V8 engines aren't about to go away altogether, industry sources say. "While we have seen the demand for V8 engines softening, we haven't seen it go down to zero, either," said Winegarden.
There will still be certain vehicle types in which V8s will be a must-have. Big pickups and SUVs will need them for their low-speed towing and hauling power.
The shift in luxury cars toward smaller engines is good news for an auto industry facing stricter fuel economy standards. It shows that even customers who can have it all are willing to embrace smaller engines and somewhat less horsepower as long they don't have to sacrifice too much.
"It's about getting what you want," Cadlillac's Caldwell said. "That's why you're buying a luxury car to begin with.
Newer luxury cars are shifting toward smaller, more sophisticated engines for power.
By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
January 30 2008: 4:40 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- When Ford's new flagship Lincoln sedan, the MKS, goes on sale later this year it will be available with all-wheel-drive, a six-speed transmission and plenty of rear-seat legroom. But one feature usually found on full-size luxury cars will not be available on the MKS at any price: a V8 engine.
That might seem a risky step for a brand that's supposed to be undergoing a renaissance, getting back into fighting trim as a true luxury brand. For a certain segment of the market, a big luxury car just isn't a big luxury car without V8 power.
But V8 engines just aren't needed in many of these cars anymore, according to Ford and General Motors. New, more sophisticated V6s offer nearly the same performance with better fuel economy.
"End-game performance when you step on the gas is what it's all about" said Alan Hall, a Ford spokesman.
The top-end engine in the new MKS sedan, to be offered within a year of the car's launch, will be a twin-turbocharged V6 with direct gasoline injection. Turbochargers push air into the engine's cylinders for higher compression and greater power. Direct injection pushes fuel directly into the cylinder at high pressure.
Combining the technologies creates more compression that allows the engine, Ford says, to put out as much power as a V8 while using only slightly more fuel than a non-turbocharged V6.
Shifting tastes
GM is already seeing lesser V8 demand in its luxury cars. Last year, they were under the hood of about 26% of Cadillac STS sedans sold. This year, V8s accounted for just 17% of STS sales, according to data from Power Information Network.
That shift coincides with the introduction of GM's new V6 engine with direct fuel injection that can produce a maximum of 302 horsepower compared to 320 from the V8.
Cadillac spokesman David Caldwell cites consumer interest in the technology rather than just fuel economy difference as the main reason for the shift. The V6 gets about one mile per gallon more than the V8, according to EPA estimates.
"I think these are consumers that are more technology-savvy than they used to be and they understand that this is a really premium V6," he said.
Other car brands having been seeing similar shifts, according to Power Information Networks data. Buyers of the Chrysler 300, Mercedes-Benz E-class and the Cadillac SRX crossover SUV, which all offer V6 and V8 versions, are shifting away from V8s toward V6s.
Luxury cars present an interesting case because their engine power is entirely discretionary. They won't be used to tow trailers, and their buyers aren't deeply affected by rising gas prices. They can afford V8s - it's all about whether or not they want them.
The broad shift indicates that an interest in saving gas is partly a consideration, said Michael Omotos, an analyst with J.D. Power and Associates. Improved V6 performance clears the way for customers to make that choice without sacrifice, he said. "If you can get 300 horsepower out of a V6, what's the point of going for 340 out of the V8?"
Meanwhile, the growing environmental movement provides an added push for buyers to move to smaller engines, he said, even if they can easily afford the higher cost and fuel consumption of a V8.
V8 will stay
Like Ford, GM is also considering a smaller turbocharged V6 engine in some Cadillacs. That would improve performance further and widen the fuel economy gap compared with similarly-powered V8s.
But V8 engines aren't about to go away altogether, industry sources say. "While we have seen the demand for V8 engines softening, we haven't seen it go down to zero, either," said Winegarden.
There will still be certain vehicle types in which V8s will be a must-have. Big pickups and SUVs will need them for their low-speed towing and hauling power.
The shift in luxury cars toward smaller engines is good news for an auto industry facing stricter fuel economy standards. It shows that even customers who can have it all are willing to embrace smaller engines and somewhat less horsepower as long they don't have to sacrifice too much.
"It's about getting what you want," Cadlillac's Caldwell said. "That's why you're buying a luxury car to begin with.
02-01-08, 09:31 AM
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Ooof. The AWD V6 STS gets 17/26 vs. the V8 AWD's 14/21. Yeouch. Not to mention that the V8 is even close to putting down the kind of power that an LS600h does, though it is quite a bit cheaper.
02-01-08, 09:48 AM
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man ... i still think the V8 should be an option ... just maybe dont make the cars that are going to sit on the lot in a V8 or something ... but i think taking it away is stupid ... as i said in another thread: 'luxury is about excess' ... people buying a luxury car want the option for the excess reguardless of how efficient it may or may not be
02-01-08, 09:56 AM
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02-01-08, 09:59 AM
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02-01-08, 10:33 AM
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Article is VERY premature. Lincoln is barely a luxury anything, sorry. Them ditching V-8s means nothing. Caddy ditching V-8s means a little more.
Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.
Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?
Ridiculous and an excuse for companies without a V-8.
Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.
Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?
Ridiculous and an excuse for companies without a V-8.
02-01-08, 10:42 AM
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Get used to it, guys. We'll see some V8s and V10s still left, perhaps in large trucks and SUV's designed for towing, and in a few ultra-hi-performance sports models, but the general trend in engine size will be down. It may not be something that a lot of car enthusiasts will want to see, but the political and market realities of today's world will simply force it. A number of you have criticized Acura for not developing a V8 with RWD, but perhaps Acura was already a little ahead of the ball game.
It could temporarily drive up the price of used cars with V8s, for those determined to have them, but even then it's only a matter of time.....engines only last so long, and many owners will not want to bother having them rebuilt or with major repairs when they start burning a lot of oil or can no longer pass emissions tests.
It could temporarily drive up the price of used cars with V8s, for those determined to have them, but even then it's only a matter of time.....engines only last so long, and many owners will not want to bother having them rebuilt or with major repairs when they start burning a lot of oil or can no longer pass emissions tests.
Last edited by mmarshall; 02-01-08 at 10:49 AM.
02-01-08, 11:01 AM
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I think in a couple years you are going to see Mercedes, BMW, Audi, bringing over 6 cylinder versions of their flagship sedans and coupes like the S class, A8, 7 series, SL, CL, 6 series, etc that are available in Europe and other countries. I also see in mid lux cars in the future v8 will be special order options and not really on the lots anymore. Turbo, supercharged, hybrid v6, deisel powerplants will become much more popular in luxury/sports car makes. They are also going to get smaller and lighter by using lighter exotic material. Big SUVs and Pickups will take the biggest hit with these new mpg regulations. Unless companies come up with new technology that makes their v8s much more fuel efficient, v8 vehicles are going to become pretty rare in the future. Ferrari and Lamborgini are probrably scrambling to come up with some way to deal with this as their lineup is not going to cut it with these new regulations.
02-01-08, 11:01 AM
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Article is VERY premature. Lincoln is barely a luxury anything, sorry. Them ditching V-8s means nothing. Caddy ditching V-8s means a little more.
Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.
Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?
Ridiculous and an excuse for companies without a V-8.
Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.
Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?
Ridiculous and an excuse for companies without a V-8.
02-01-08, 11:08 AM
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I think in a couple years you are going to see Mercedes, BMW, Audi, bringing over 6 cylinder versions of their flagship sedans and coupes like the S class, A8, 7 series, SL, CL, 6 series, etc that are available in Europe and other countries. I also see in mid lux cars in the future v8 will be special order options and not really on the lots anymore. Turbo, supercharged, hybrid v6, deisel powerplants will become much more popular in luxury/sports car makes. They are also going to get smaller and lighter by using lighter exotic material. Big SUVs and Pickups will take the biggest hit with these new mpg regulations. Unless companies come up with new technology that makes their v8s much more fuel efficient, v8 vehicles are going to become pretty rare in the future. Ferrari and Lamborgini are probrably scrambling to come up with some way to deal with this as their lineup is not going to cut it with these new regulations.
Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.
Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.
Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.
02-01-08, 11:12 AM
#13
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Historically, people that want a V-8/V-10/V-12 continue to buy them, no matter what happens with oil or the economy. Just looking at V-8 SUVs, well people still buy them and gas has tripled in 8 years. V-8 sedans have NEVER sold better.
Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.
Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.
Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.
Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.
Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.
Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.
02-01-08, 12:04 PM
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I never understood why biggest of cars usually had the biggest of motors. Seemed like an oxy moron to me. One would think that you would want some to make something small and nible go fast, not large and boat like. I say that if a company is worried about having efficient engines, but also having a V8 they bring back smaller displacement V8s. No harm in that considering the advancements in technology.
02-01-08, 12:51 PM
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Historically, people that want a V-8/V-10/V-12 continue to buy them, no matter what happens with oil or the economy. Just looking at V-8 SUVs, well people still buy them and gas has tripled in 8 years. V-8 sedans have NEVER sold better.
Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.
Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.
Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.
Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.
Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.
Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.