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Toyota "crashes" in reliability rankings

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Old 10-16-07, 09:38 AM
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Default Toyota "crashes" in reliability rankings

Toyota crashes in reliability rankings

Automaker slips to fifth from first place, and some versions of Camry, Tundra and Lexus GS no longer recommended.


By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
October 16 2007: 12:01 PM EDT


NEW YORK, CNNMoney.com -- The Toyota brand has lost its top position for iron-clad reliability, according to an influential Consumer Reports survey released Tuesday.

The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability. The rankings are based on average predicted reliability for all models sold under a given brand.


2007 Toyota Camry: Because of poor predicted reliability, V6-powered versions of the Toyota Camry are no longer recommended by Consumer Reports.

Brands made by Toyota Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. still dominate the rankings: Scion is Toyota's low-priced car brand and Acura is Honda's luxury car brand.

Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.

In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners.

But from now on, the magazine will wait for a full year of reliability survey data to come in before it recommends a Toyota product - as it does with most other manufacturers.

Manufacturers were not immediately available for comment.

Toyota recently passed Ford in sales and is now the second best-selling car company in the United States behind General Motors.

Domestic manufacturers General Motors (Charts, Fortune 500), Ford (Charts, Fortune 500) and Chrysler continued to improve in the Consumer Reports reliability rankings. But only Buick, GM's near-luxury brand ranked number 10, made into the top ten.

Among individual models, GM's closely related GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook SUVs earned a Consumer Reports recommendation based on their first full year of data. The Dodge Charger also earned a recommendation after its reliability showed substantial improvement from previous years.

Ford, in particular, is improving in quality, according to Consumer Reports. In all, 93 percent of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles showed average or better reliability in the most recent reliability survey.

Among overall brands, Ford's Mercury brand ranked 11th, the Ford brand ranked 13th and the Lincoln luxury brand ranked 14th. Other than Buick, they were the highest-ranking domestic brands.

Ford's quality has tended to be more consistent, with steady improvement year over year, than that of other domestic manufacturers, said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports.

"GM and Chrysler have been more hit-and-miss," said Champion.

Of the 39 cars rated "Most Reliable" in Consumer Reports new list, four are by domestic manufacturers. They are the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, two-wheel-drives Ford F-150 V6 and GM's Pontiac Vibe. The Vibe is built in cooperation with Toyota and shares its engineering with the Toyota Matrix.

But 20 of the 44 "least reliable" models named by Consumer Reports were also from domestic manufacturers.

The least reliable car of all, according to Consumer Reports survey, is General Motors' Pontiac Solstice sports car. Its reliability was calculated to be 234 percent worse than average. It was followed closely by GM's Cadillac Escalade EXT, which is calculated to be 220 percent less reliable than the average vehicle.

European manufacturers showed some of the biggest improvements in overall brand rankings. Porsche rose 20 places since last year's survey to finish ninth, for example. Meanwhile, Mini rose 16 places and Jaguar rose 17.

Consumer Reports' reliability rankings differ significantly from those released recently by J.D. Power and Associates. In the J.D. Power most recent "Vehicle Dependability Survey," five of the top ten brands were domestic and Buick tied Lexus for first place.

One major reason for that difference: J.D. Power only surveys owners of three-year-old vehicles. But Consumer Reports surveys its subscribers about vehicles from all three of the most recent model years, unless the vehicle has changed significantly. If the vehicle has changed in that time, only vehicles built since the change are included.

Consumer Reports' rankings are based on survey responses from subscribers to the magazine and its Website. Responses included information on almost 1.3 million vehicles.

Over the past few years, both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power surveys have showed similar trends, however, with domestic car brands improving in quality with European brands generally lagging behind.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/auto...ex.htm?cnn=yes
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Old 10-16-07, 10:31 AM
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Bet it's that pos transmission.
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Old 10-16-07, 10:32 AM
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oh man, this is really sad. i have been saying it for a while and i will say it again. before going out and continue to expand at the rate they have been doing it for the past 2-3 yrs, toyota should really sit down and look at their quality and reliability to make sure they are good first. otherwise they will be the next detroit 3 eventually.

and it's a real shame that the camry is not receiving any good ratings anymore. it's almost like the trademark for toyota, and they manage to screw it up. that's a shame.....

so i guess it seems like the v6 engine/tranny is the problem? i suppose for the tundra and the gs it would be the v6 version? ummm, if that's the case, that's really horrible. toyota is famous for making strong and reliable engines and tranny, if they really have problems in this area as well, and most important on the v6 (which is becoming the real mainstream).... i know the es350 have issues with the drivetrain, which i suppose is the same setup in the camry. but i thought the gs350 has a different setup

are there further information on the lexus gs, what problems with it? maybe i should think twice about the new gs now
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Old 10-16-07, 10:53 AM
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GS69
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Question So ...

Is it:
1. Honda
2. Acura
3. Scion
4. Subaru
5. Toyota

?? No Lexus?
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Old 10-16-07, 10:54 AM
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im sure they will bounce back next year
the transmission flare problem is really rare now
and the 3GS has been fixed according to flipside
toyota and lexus have been working hard in the past few months to fix their reliability problem
they knew about their reliability problem sometime ago and the good thing is they know how to fix things unlike some manufacturers
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Old 10-16-07, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by GS69
Is it:
1. Honda
2. Acura
3. Scion
4. Subaru
5. Toyota

?? No Lexus?
that means lexus is even below that?

anyway, ubernoob, can you give me a pointer on the problem on the 3gs? i would want to read more. is it on the gs300 or the gs350?
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Old 10-16-07, 11:26 AM
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October 16, 2007
Consumer Reports' 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey highlights

After years of sterling reliability, Toyota is showing cracks in its armor, according to data from Consumer Reports' 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey. By contrast, Ford's domestic brands have made considerable improvements.

The V6 version of the company's top-selling Camry, and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup, both redesigned for 2007, now rate below average in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rating. (This rating does not apply to previous model years.) In addition, the all-wheel-drive version of the Lexus GS sedan also received a below average rating. Because Consumer Reports does not recommend models with below-average reliability, these models no longer make CR's "Recommended" list.

The four-cylinder and hybrid versions of the Camry and hybrid, rear-drive version of the GS scored above average in reliability and will continue to be Recommended. Despite these problems, Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind only Honda and Subaru. Still, because of these findings, CR will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice. Typically, CR will only recommend a vehicle if the magazine has at least one year of reliability data for that specific model.

CR's 2007 survey also shows that the odds of getting a reliable new vehicle from Ford are the best CR has seen in years. Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury models (93%) in CR's survey scored average or better in predicted reliability. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan are among the most reliable cars. They and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 V6 make up three of the only four domestic models on Consumer Reports' "Most Reliable" list. In addition, new-for-2007 SUVs such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX, as well as the freshened Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator, were all average or above.

Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on CR's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi. Not all models carrying Asian nameplates are reliable, either. The Hyundai Entourage, Infiniti QX56, Mazda CX-7, Nissan Armada (4WD), Quest, and Titan (4WD), and Toyota Tundra (V8, 4WD) are all on the "Least Reliable" list.

Besides the three Toyota-built models, other notable models with declining reliability include the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, and Volkswagen Passat (V6).

As for European brands, signs are pointing to an overall improvement. The Audi A3, A4, and A6 are now all above average or better, as are some or all versions of the BMW 3, 5, and 7 Series. The Volvo S60 is also above average. The Porsche 911 is above average and is now recommended.

For the first time in recent years, the Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6 RWD) is no longer below average, although an all-new C-Class has been introduced for 2008. Despite this, Mercedes-Benz still hovers near the bottom in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability scores comparison.

Findings are based on responses on almost 1.3 million vehicles owned or leased by subscribers to Consumer Reports or ConsumerReports.org. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2007 by Consumer Reports' National Survey Research Center and covered model years 1998 to 2007.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...liability.html
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Old 10-16-07, 11:30 AM
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Default Now WHAT exactly is Consumer Reports complaining about??

Originally Posted by rominl

are there further information on the lexus gs, what problems with it? maybe i should think twice about the new gs now
Supposedly it was "the accessories and audio system in the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan"

Now WHAT exactly is Consumer Reports complaining about??
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Old 10-16-07, 11:37 AM
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One can think, they will have learned from this and the next revision will be improved. Toyota has had some in the past 20 years so a few kinks here there are norm. Sad that any buyers have to go through this and especially on a bread-butter model.
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Old 10-16-07, 11:42 AM
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oops it wasnt flipside909
it was 1sicklex that posted the thread on lexus fixing ES and GS problems
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ht=reliability

im not exactly sure what the problems are apart from rattles and things like that but ive heard about structural integrity problems for the 3GS
not sure if i read right though or if i remembered correctly at all
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Old 10-16-07, 11:47 AM
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um, Toyota and Lexus together are 3rd overall.

But this is predicted reliability, right? Not actual reliability? I dont understand the difference? V8 AWD Tundra is brad new model too...

GS RWD and AWD have same "the accessories and audio system", RWD is reccomended and AWD is not?
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Old 10-16-07, 11:47 AM
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My GS300 built in August 2005 has definitely had a couple of the common
annoying issues (dash rattles, seatbelt recall). No other problems so far
approaching 2 years of ownership.
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Old 10-16-07, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by steverhode
Supposedly it was "the accessories and audio system in the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan"

Now WHAT exactly is Consumer Reports complaining about??
it would be funny why those have problems specifically on the awd version.

well, at least i am not looking at awd
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Old 10-16-07, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rominl
it would be funny why those have problems specifically on the awd version.

well, at least i am not looking at awd
i would have an guess and say that more ppl with AWD version complained about rattles and lock-out when it drive...
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Old 10-16-07, 01:23 PM
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It's not a "crash," but definately a downfall. (Journalists can be sooo dramatic... )

Although Toyota quality has been slipping, they are still far ahead of other automakers.

Let's hope they fix the problem, before it gets worse...
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