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Toyota/Subaru/Scion Lightweight Sports Car: Toyota GT86, Subaru BRZ, Scion FRS!

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Old 08-01-07, 02:12 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ba-b4 View Post
you people keep complaining about power but you gotta remember this thing is only gonna cost like 13 thousand bucks! The Celica and MR2 spyder had slightly more powerful engines but they cost more than 10k extra! This thing will be cheaper and lighter than a scion TC which sold like hotcakes and will probably have better straight line speed due to it being A THOUSAND POUNDS LIGHTER.
True, but at the same time they CAN still offer a more powerful version with a higher price tag. Seriously, this is one area in which the Germans do so well and Toyota needs to improve. More powertrain options, please.
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Old 08-01-07, 02:19 PM   #17
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The price sounds nice, with a retuned 2ZZ, I would think it would work out ok
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Old 08-01-07, 02:31 PM   #18
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First of all, this is exciting and welcome news. I hope all this comes to fruition. How can Toyota fans not be excited about a cheap, back-to-basics RWD?

Anyway, I posted this on another forum...

I've been thinking some more about this, and here's what I've come up with:

Most importantly, get that $13K price tag out of your mind right now. That's not happening. Maybe in Japan, but the similar/same model always costs more overseas. More on my pricing guesses below, but we won't see this thing sell for less than $15K. Bet on it.

It makes no sense for this to be sold in the US as a Toyota with the Scion brand being around. Conveniently, for the 2010 model year the tC will be due for a redesign or replacement. So this will probably go on sale in Japan in late 2008 as a 2009 Toyota model (there is no Scion in Japan) and might go on sale in the US in the late spring/early summer of 2009 as an early 2010 Scion model to replace the tC. Given the weight of current Scions, it looks like it will be a challenge for them to keep the weight under 2500lbs.

I could envision them offering 2 models, along the lines of a "Standard Tune" and a "Light Tune."

Standard Tune would not include power windows, locks, or mirrors. It would include some sort of combination head/torso side airbags to save weight and complexity (instead of separate curtain and side seat-mount airbags), ABS, and some sort of traction/stability control (it'll be mandated by 2012 anyway). Possibly an LSD. They'll probably include HVAC, but steel wheels and other weight-saving cheapness (just like the "tuner" version of the tC they currently sell). Four-speaker stereo, single CD. Probably the only transmission for this trim would be a 5-speed manual to save weight and cost, mated to a naturally aspirated engine making about 135-140HP. I'd say MSRP would be about $15,900 and weight about 2400lbs.

Light Tune would include power windows, locks, and mirrors but manual seats just like the Standard. It would include lightweight 17" or 18" wheels from Rays, LED tail-lights, maybe HID headlights, 6-speaker Pioneer stereo. Leather wheel. A light-pressure turbocharged engine as standard making about 170-180HP. A choice of transmissions, including a standard 5-speed manual and an optional automatic (possibly a DSG-type). Weight would obviously increase to more than 2700lbs. with these added features though...And MSRP for the manual would be $17,990 with the autobox costing about $18,995 (price would probably be closer to $20K if they did in fact include things like HIDs and a set of lightweight wheels).

Either way, Toyota's got their work cut out for them. Seriously, Toyota needs this car in their portfolio, as Toyota's lineup continues to become more stodgy and Lexus continues to move upscale and out of reach of many enthusiasts. We'll know for sure in a year or two if they were just blowing smoke up our butts.
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Old 08-01-07, 02:37 PM   #19
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Below 1000 kgs = below 2200 lbs.
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Old 08-01-07, 02:50 PM   #20
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I also am suspicious about the rumoured price-tag. Subaru derived platform or not, I *highly* doubt this car will sell for under 16K in the US, if it really is coming.
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Old 08-01-07, 02:57 PM   #21
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Below 1000 kgs = below 2200 lbs.
I'm sure they say that's their goal, and it's an admirable one, but at/under 2200lbs. will never happen. There's no way they could offer RWD and the full compliment of modern safety equipment (side airbags, etc.) at 2200lbs. Even the Yaris, unoptioned, weighs more than that.

Not like it matters too much. If my prediction comes even close to being true, there will indeed be a model with virtually no features in order to save weight and attract people with a low base price. I would say this sort of model would have limited production runs throughout the year, or might be only special order. Most people (myself included) would probably opt for the heavier, more feature-laden model.
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Old 08-01-07, 03:58 PM   #22
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I'm sure they say that's their goal, and it's an admirable one, but at/under 2200lbs. will never happen. There's no way they could offer RWD and the full compliment of modern safety equipment (side airbags, etc.) at 2200lbs. Even the Yaris, unoptioned, weighs more than that.

Not like it matters too much. If my prediction comes even close to being true, there will indeed be a model with virtually no features in order to save weight and attract people with a low base price. I would say this sort of model would have limited production runs throughout the year, or might be only special order. Most people (myself included) would probably opt for the heavier, more feature-laden model.


And why not? The MR-S was around 900kgs, and was a convertible (meaning it would need extra chassis bracing because of the lack of a roof). No exotic aluminum chassis, or anything of the sort.

I think they can if they put a little effort into it.
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Old 08-01-07, 04:03 PM   #23
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I hope they bring it and it's RWD, what would be the point of FWD since they already have the Scion TC........
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Old 08-01-07, 04:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy View Post
I also am suspicious about the rumoured price-tag. Subaru derived platform or not, I *highly* doubt this car will sell for under 16K in the US, if it really is coming.
Why must you doubt? Actually, itís OK, I think it's symptomatic of Toyota fans today...After all, Toyota hasn't given us a credible, authentic, affordable sports car in over a decade, so we automatically assume it can't be done.

I have two words for the doubters of this project: Subaru Impreza.

You can go out and buy a base Impreza/Outback Sport for under $17K RIGHT NOW, and this is what you'll get:

-a 2.5L boxer engine
-a TRUE AWD system
-HVAC
-a stereo
-modern safety equipment (side airbags and ABS)
-power amenities
-4 doors

For those of you who may not be familiar with Subaru's AWD system, I would like to explain why I believe it can be easily and cheaply adapted to a RWD setup. The Subaru AWD system is perfectly symmetrical and was built from the ground-up around a longitudinal engine and longitudinal transmission configuration, just like a RWD car. This isn't some namby-pamby part-time Haldex AWD system like so many other manufacturers try to sell. The longitudinal motor connects to a longitudinal transmission which sends power to the rear wheels from a driveshaft that goes straight out the back, just like a RWD. The only difference in the Subaru AWD system is that there is a small transfer case built into the tranny which sends power to the front axel as well. So, eliminate the transfer case and front differential from Subaru's setup and, presto!, you have a wonderful RWD setup. No front diff/drive assembly and no transfer case also means that a Subaru-based Toyota (Scion) RWD setup would be even cheaper than Subaru's basic AWD system!

So, given the above facts, what makes you think that Toyota could not produce a RWD coupe that, by it's nature, has the following cost advantages over the Impreza/Outback Sport?:

-smaller 2-door body (less materials = less cost)
-simpler drivetrain
-more common I4 engine compared to the more exotic and more expensive to produce boxer 4

If I'm half as smart as I think I am, I think this is why Toyota is looking to Subaru for help on this project. I also wouldn't be surprised to see this Scion coupe feature an aluminum hood and rear deck to save weight, a move taken straight from Subaru's playbook.

If Subaru can assemble a true 4WD car in Japan and sell it in America for $17K, Toyota can do the same with a RWD Scion model, but enjoy better economies of scale in terms of cost due to their larger supplier/development network (which Subaru is now a part of).

These facts are practically irrefutable. It's time for Toyota fans to start believing!
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Old 08-01-07, 04:16 PM   #25
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And why not? The MR-S was around 900kgs, and was a convertible (meaning it would need extra chassis bracing because of the lack of a roof). No exotic aluminum chassis, or anything of the sort.

I think they can if they put a little effort into it.
Not with modern safety equipment they can't. If anything, they'll have to over-engineer it because they don't want to run the risk of kids buying these and then wrecking/dying in droves (even if it's their own stupid fault.) No, this car (especially by 2012, govt. regs) will have to have stability control and a full compliment of airbags to match, something the MR didn't have. An airbag here, an airbag there, stability control, and suddenly the pounds rack up by the hundreds. Also, the MR-S was a tiny roadster, which didn't feature heavier glass at the sides and rear, like this car would if it is a true coupe 2+2...this coupe will certainly have a larger, fixed greenhouse which will inherently weigh more than that tiny ragtop the MR-S had.

Also, the lightest MR-S with manual was indeed just under 2200lbs., and I maintain that once all is said and done, the lightest this new car will weigh will be 2400lbs. for reasons I already mentioned.


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I hope they bring it and it's RWD, what would be the point of FWD since they already have the Scion TC........
Did you read my initial post? I spelled out the case for when, why, and how this would replace the tC.

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Old 08-01-07, 04:42 PM   #26
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Also, the lightest MR-S with manual was indeed just under 2200lbs., and I maintain that once all is said and done, the lightest this new car will weigh will be 2400lbs. for reasons I already mentioned.
Agreed. Another big difference would be that the tC and the MR-S essentially use front-wheel drivetrains (the MR-S's is just at the rear axle) whereas a front-engine/rear drive coupe will need a north/south running transmission, a driveshaft and a differential. The old AE86 weighs around 2400 lbs, and it has no airbags, power windows, seats (etc.) and related safety equipment. Granted the AE86 does have a somewhat heavy live rear axle.

Anyway, my guess would be closer to 2500-2600 lbs; the AE86 had 112 hp here in the U.S. and, while somewhat quick by 1985 standards (even my '85 MR2 with the same 4AG engine would handily SMOKE the AE86), the Hachi would likely get smoked by a 4-cylinder current-model Corolla. This is why I'd like to see it have a bit more power... and it would be neat to have an engine that revs a bit, not just a 6500 rpm torque-intense engine like the Camry/new xB has.
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Old 08-01-07, 04:59 PM   #27
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So, it's a RWD Yaris?
At least on paper, it looks better then a Yaris.
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Old 08-01-07, 06:12 PM   #28
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Its gonna weigh at least 3000lbs.
The tiny new 1 series weighs nearly 3200 lbs and that thing is small. With safety and harddrives and speakers etc etc, it will not be lightweight.

The cheaper way to make it is to add more power.

How about 3000 lbs, put the I-4 in the tC in it, make the S/C standard and ensure it is RWD.
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Old 08-01-07, 06:19 PM   #29
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Agreed 100%

Also the MR-S was 900 odd kgs, and it had 130hp. 120 is not gonna fly.
150-170hp should be the bare minimum, with space to make a lot more.
Their new 2.0Valvematic engine could go nicely there.
All depends on price, the MR-S was $21k new. whereas this is supposedly $12k. I would say even at $14-15k it will sell very well to the tuner niche
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Old 08-01-07, 06:21 PM   #30
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im sure ppl will be transplanting a 2jz in it anyways, their everywhere now.
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Old 08-01-07, 06:21 PM
 
 
 
 
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