Toyota/Subaru/Scion Lightweight Sports Car: Toyota GT86, Subaru BRZ, Scion FRS!
12-15-11, 12:26 AM
#1878
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No Ring times yet but it won't be fast, lucky to break into the high 8s...
Its very small, about S2000 size, about 15 inches shorter than the IS
12-15-11, 12:52 AM
#1879
It is trying, from the track enthusiasts and people who actually drive simple sports cars on a normal person's budgets. However, not without the massive number of enthusiasts who do not have experience on a raceway, and deep fondness of simplicity and analog controls, ranting by those who have been fed a diet of mass marketing, HP wars....who knows nothing beyond those numbers. It takes a special enthusiast to appreciate a car like this...
That is the challenge for auto makers in the near future...as we have pretty much reached a plateau of "more power" and already it takes a huge array and arsenal of on-board computing to ensure 500hp cars are safe for drivers who are allowed to buy them without a prior experience or license on a racetrack and similar environments. It's refreshing to see a new direction like this, going back to the basics of a light car, modest and managable power, and all the speed of a much higher spec cars, as long as the driver CAN make it go. This FRS/BRZ/86 is such a car, void of aids that make mortals seek driving skills and does not give pride to those without enthusiasm of engaged driving pleasure.
Last edited by motohide; 12-15-11 at 01:00 AM.
12-15-11, 01:24 AM
#1880
Don't tell me that isn't fast, because it certainly is VERY fast by any normal sense of the word.
It's actually really scaryfast to do 8's and even 9's at the Nordeschliefe (The Old North Course)
12-15-11, 04:40 AM
#1881
I drove the E350, 535i, and 2013 GS in Standard, Hybrid, and F Sport at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway last week and I was really shocked to see and feel, that the 2013 GS, for the FIRST time in history, actually drove in a manner that exceeds the European bread & butter mid-sized sport-y sedans. Not only the new GS exhibited none of the fake sport feel that was once a Lexus/Toyota strategy, it actually did handle razor sharp right up to and beyond the limits! No more of that precision feel that went away after the contact patch was loaded. This new GS actually stays planted and re-directs the vector well beyond the tire's peak adhesion, and just keeps communicating to the driver what will happen next and where it is going. BMW's and to a lesser extent, the Mercedes E has always had this attribute, while the Lexus cars never really did to that level, this time the the new GS really shot past the German benchmarks. (I've never said this for any previous Lexus cars, with exception of the LFA, there was always something I've always had to make reasons and respect why Toyota chose that direction in tuning a car that slightly detracted from sheer handling pleasure. From over-limit pushover that used to be something perhaps legally worrisome for being too sharp or aggressive where drivers may get into trouble, or hard springs and valving that made it only 'feel' agile but not really spot on with aggressive caster angles which made it safer and compliant for straighter tracking.) The new GS has none of such compromises and just asks you to play, toss, and see where you can take it.
The GS, even with Hybrid and Standard models all exhibit this awesome tractability and direct engagement of drivers. So much so to the point that I feel ALL the GS models in 2013 are really great road cars, and the F-Sport package on this particular model, is not really to improve on something that is already excellent, but just to flavor it more to people who prefer the taught road feel, and louder exhaust. Because on the race track, it didn't feel any more quicker or refined, but just different, for those that prefer it. Sport and Sport+ modes included, only retune it for the sensations, but even the NORMAL mode exhibits very composed peak handling characters, right up to the limitations of the four contact patches.
Lexus PR and advertising never really touts something like this very strongly as that may not be in the comprehension level or such subjective matters make headlines in the general media. I can definitely see that at least the Product Development and Lexus/Toyota engineers are VERY different in priority about handling of these cars than before.
Perhaps there is a great shift in upcoming products... I've also put 800 miles in a Scion iQ, and believe it or not, I miss that car now for its nimble and sporty manners too...(something I'd thought I would never associate with such miniscule car with tall, short doggy layout...)
All these upcoming cars have something Toyota really didn't have or even try to have previously. and it's reaching for the European goodness, once astonishingly untouchable, finally has been matched...
This with none of the Horsepower Wars, Hyper lateral G, or any "statistical" numerics that people usually relate in comparison.
This time, you REALLY NEED to get in the driver's seat and chuck it around to understand the refinement of any of these new cars.
Maybe Toyota engineers are telling the general consumers to WAKE UP and smell the roses, cars are not about devices and gadgets, but about driving pleasure.
If that's the case, I have a newly found love for the "new" Toyota thinking.
With the FRS and GS. What next?
Last edited by motohide; 12-15-11 at 04:59 AM.
12-15-11, 06:15 AM
#1882
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no doubt one can do a front end conversion to turn the BRZ front into the 86 by swapping out the bumper, rewiring for the turn signal in the fog housing etc etc, but it just doesn't make sense to redo the entire front of the car when the final product is already available from factory by Toyota. If the premium 86 weren't offered by Toyota at all and there were only the FR-S trim, then i can see this as a totally worthwhile effort.
anywho, i still love this car, so sexy. May be it is better that the equivalence of the 86 isn't available in the US, so i won't be tempted to trade in LOL
anywho, i still love this car, so sexy. May be it is better that the equivalence of the 86 isn't available in the US, so i won't be tempted to trade in LOL
This is exactly what they are NOT focusing on. I would guess mid 8's or so, but of course at the hands of an experienced race driver. Not that it'd really matter. of course, good handling intrinsically lead to good times, but sometimes it's better not to focus on just the numbers yes?
That's actually a very interesting point there.
I drove the E350, 535i, and 2013 GS in Standard, Hybrid, and F Sport at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway last week and I was really shocked to see and feel, that the 2013 GS, for the FIRST time in history, actually drove in a manner that exceeds the European bread & butter mid-sized sport-y sedans. Not only the new GS exhibited none of the fake sport feel that was once a Lexus/Toyota strategy, it actually did handle razor sharp right up to and beyond the limits! No more of that precision feel that went away after the contact patch was loaded. This new GS actually stays planted and re-directs the vector well beyond the tire's peak adhesion, and just keeps communicating to the driver what will happen next and where it is going. BMW's and to a lesser extent, the Mercedes E has always had this attribute, while the Lexus cars never really did to that level, this time the the new GS really shot past the German benchmarks. (I've never said this for any previous Lexus cars, with exception of the LFA, there was always something I've always had to make reasons and respect why Toyota chose that direction in tuning a car that slightly detracted from sheer handling pleasure. From over-limit pushover that used to be something perhaps legally worrisome for being too sharp or aggressive where drivers may get into trouble, or hard springs and valving that made it only 'feel' agile but not really spot on with aggressive caster angles which made it safer and compliant for straighter tracking.) The new GS has none of such compromises and just asks you to play, toss, and see where you can take it.
The GS, even with Hybrid and Standard models all exhibit this awesome tractability and direct engagement of drivers. So much so to the point that I feel ALL the GS models in 2013 are really great road cars, and the F-Sport package on this particular model, is not really to improve on something that is already excellent, but just to flavor it more to people who prefer the taught road feel, and louder exhaust. Because on the race track, it didn't feel any more quicker or refined, but just different, for those that prefer it. Sport and Sport+ modes included, only retune it for the sensations, but even the NORMAL mode exhibits very composed peak handling characters, right up to the limitations of the four contact patches.
Lexus PR and advertising never really touts something like this very strongly as that may not be in the comprehension level or such subjective matters make headlines in the general media. I can definitely see that at least the Product Development and Lexus/Toyota engineers are VERY different in priority about handling of these cars than before.
Perhaps there is a great shift in upcoming products... I've also put 800 miles in a Scion iQ, and believe it or not, I miss that car now for its nimble and sporty manners too...(something I'd thought I would never associate with such miniscule car with tall, short doggy layout...)
All these upcoming cars have something Toyota really didn't have or even try to have previously. and it's reaching for the European goodness, once astonishingly untouchable, finally has been matched...
This with none of the Horsepower Wars, Hyper lateral G, or any "statistical" numerics that people usually relate in comparison.
This time, you REALLY NEED to get in the driver's seat and chuck it around to understand the refinement of any of these new cars.
Maybe Toyota engineers are telling the general consumers to WAKE UP and smell the roses, cars are not about devices and gadgets, but about driving pleasure.
If that's the case, I have a newly found love for the "new" Toyota thinking.
With the FRS and GS. What next?
I drove the E350, 535i, and 2013 GS in Standard, Hybrid, and F Sport at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway last week and I was really shocked to see and feel, that the 2013 GS, for the FIRST time in history, actually drove in a manner that exceeds the European bread & butter mid-sized sport-y sedans. Not only the new GS exhibited none of the fake sport feel that was once a Lexus/Toyota strategy, it actually did handle razor sharp right up to and beyond the limits! No more of that precision feel that went away after the contact patch was loaded. This new GS actually stays planted and re-directs the vector well beyond the tire's peak adhesion, and just keeps communicating to the driver what will happen next and where it is going. BMW's and to a lesser extent, the Mercedes E has always had this attribute, while the Lexus cars never really did to that level, this time the the new GS really shot past the German benchmarks. (I've never said this for any previous Lexus cars, with exception of the LFA, there was always something I've always had to make reasons and respect why Toyota chose that direction in tuning a car that slightly detracted from sheer handling pleasure. From over-limit pushover that used to be something perhaps legally worrisome for being too sharp or aggressive where drivers may get into trouble, or hard springs and valving that made it only 'feel' agile but not really spot on with aggressive caster angles which made it safer and compliant for straighter tracking.) The new GS has none of such compromises and just asks you to play, toss, and see where you can take it.
The GS, even with Hybrid and Standard models all exhibit this awesome tractability and direct engagement of drivers. So much so to the point that I feel ALL the GS models in 2013 are really great road cars, and the F-Sport package on this particular model, is not really to improve on something that is already excellent, but just to flavor it more to people who prefer the taught road feel, and louder exhaust. Because on the race track, it didn't feel any more quicker or refined, but just different, for those that prefer it. Sport and Sport+ modes included, only retune it for the sensations, but even the NORMAL mode exhibits very composed peak handling characters, right up to the limitations of the four contact patches.
Lexus PR and advertising never really touts something like this very strongly as that may not be in the comprehension level or such subjective matters make headlines in the general media. I can definitely see that at least the Product Development and Lexus/Toyota engineers are VERY different in priority about handling of these cars than before.
Perhaps there is a great shift in upcoming products... I've also put 800 miles in a Scion iQ, and believe it or not, I miss that car now for its nimble and sporty manners too...(something I'd thought I would never associate with such miniscule car with tall, short doggy layout...)
All these upcoming cars have something Toyota really didn't have or even try to have previously. and it's reaching for the European goodness, once astonishingly untouchable, finally has been matched...
This with none of the Horsepower Wars, Hyper lateral G, or any "statistical" numerics that people usually relate in comparison.
This time, you REALLY NEED to get in the driver's seat and chuck it around to understand the refinement of any of these new cars.
Maybe Toyota engineers are telling the general consumers to WAKE UP and smell the roses, cars are not about devices and gadgets, but about driving pleasure.
If that's the case, I have a newly found love for the "new" Toyota thinking.
With the FRS and GS. What next?
12-15-11, 06:47 AM
#1883
i drove iQ 2 years ago and thats what i thought... most generic reviews dont really review that car well at all. they pretend that all tiny cars handle bumps like Corolla does (and they dont)... I guess US needs more tiny cars to compare them properly :-)
12-15-11, 06:50 AM
#1884
That's actually a very interesting point there.
I drove the E350, 535i, and 2013 GS in Standard, Hybrid, and F Sport at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway last week and I was really shocked to see and feel, that the 2013 GS, for the FIRST time in history, actually drove in a manner that exceeds the European bread & butter mid-sized sport-y sedans. Not only the new GS exhibited none of the fake sport feel that was once a Lexus/Toyota strategy, it actually did handle razor sharp right up to and beyond the limits! No more of that precision feel that went away after the contact patch was loaded. This new GS actually stays planted and re-directs the vector well beyond the tire's peak adhesion, and just keeps communicating to the driver what will happen next and where it is going. BMW's and to a lesser extent, the Mercedes E has always had this attribute, while the Lexus cars never really did to that level, this time the the new GS really shot past the German benchmarks. (I've never said this for any previous Lexus cars, with exception of the LFA, there was always something I've always had to make reasons and respect why Toyota chose that direction in tuning a car that slightly detracted from sheer handling pleasure. From over-limit pushover that used to be something perhaps legally worrisome for being too sharp or aggressive where drivers may get into trouble, or hard springs and valving that made it only 'feel' agile but not really spot on with aggressive caster angles which made it safer and compliant for straighter tracking.) The new GS has none of such compromises and just asks you to play, toss, and see where you can take it.
The GS, even with Hybrid and Standard models all exhibit this awesome tractability and direct engagement of drivers. So much so to the point that I feel ALL the GS models in 2013 are really great road cars, and the F-Sport package on this particular model, is not really to improve on something that is already excellent, but just to flavor it more to people who prefer the taught road feel, and louder exhaust. Because on the race track, it didn't feel any more quicker or refined, but just different, for those that prefer it. Sport and Sport+ modes included, only retune it for the sensations, but even the NORMAL mode exhibits very composed peak handling characters, right up to the limitations of the four contact patches.
Lexus PR and advertising never really touts something like this very strongly as that may not be in the comprehension level or such subjective matters make headlines in the general media. I can definitely see that at least the Product Development and Lexus/Toyota engineers are VERY different in priority about handling of these cars than before.
Perhaps there is a great shift in upcoming products... I've also put 800 miles in a Scion iQ, and believe it or not, I miss that car now for its nimble and sporty manners too...(something I'd thought I would never associate with such miniscule car with tall, short doggy layout...)
All these upcoming cars have something Toyota really didn't have or even try to have previously. and it's reaching for the European goodness, once astonishingly untouchable, finally has been matched...
This with none of the Horsepower Wars, Hyper lateral G, or any "statistical" numerics that people usually relate in comparison.
This time, you REALLY NEED to get in the driver's seat and chuck it around to understand the refinement of any of these new cars.
Maybe Toyota engineers are telling the general consumers to WAKE UP and smell the roses, cars are not about devices and gadgets, but about driving pleasure.
If that's the case, I have a newly found love for the "new" Toyota thinking.
With the FRS and GS. What next?
I drove the E350, 535i, and 2013 GS in Standard, Hybrid, and F Sport at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway last week and I was really shocked to see and feel, that the 2013 GS, for the FIRST time in history, actually drove in a manner that exceeds the European bread & butter mid-sized sport-y sedans. Not only the new GS exhibited none of the fake sport feel that was once a Lexus/Toyota strategy, it actually did handle razor sharp right up to and beyond the limits! No more of that precision feel that went away after the contact patch was loaded. This new GS actually stays planted and re-directs the vector well beyond the tire's peak adhesion, and just keeps communicating to the driver what will happen next and where it is going. BMW's and to a lesser extent, the Mercedes E has always had this attribute, while the Lexus cars never really did to that level, this time the the new GS really shot past the German benchmarks. (I've never said this for any previous Lexus cars, with exception of the LFA, there was always something I've always had to make reasons and respect why Toyota chose that direction in tuning a car that slightly detracted from sheer handling pleasure. From over-limit pushover that used to be something perhaps legally worrisome for being too sharp or aggressive where drivers may get into trouble, or hard springs and valving that made it only 'feel' agile but not really spot on with aggressive caster angles which made it safer and compliant for straighter tracking.) The new GS has none of such compromises and just asks you to play, toss, and see where you can take it.
The GS, even with Hybrid and Standard models all exhibit this awesome tractability and direct engagement of drivers. So much so to the point that I feel ALL the GS models in 2013 are really great road cars, and the F-Sport package on this particular model, is not really to improve on something that is already excellent, but just to flavor it more to people who prefer the taught road feel, and louder exhaust. Because on the race track, it didn't feel any more quicker or refined, but just different, for those that prefer it. Sport and Sport+ modes included, only retune it for the sensations, but even the NORMAL mode exhibits very composed peak handling characters, right up to the limitations of the four contact patches.
Lexus PR and advertising never really touts something like this very strongly as that may not be in the comprehension level or such subjective matters make headlines in the general media. I can definitely see that at least the Product Development and Lexus/Toyota engineers are VERY different in priority about handling of these cars than before.
Perhaps there is a great shift in upcoming products... I've also put 800 miles in a Scion iQ, and believe it or not, I miss that car now for its nimble and sporty manners too...(something I'd thought I would never associate with such miniscule car with tall, short doggy layout...)
All these upcoming cars have something Toyota really didn't have or even try to have previously. and it's reaching for the European goodness, once astonishingly untouchable, finally has been matched...
This with none of the Horsepower Wars, Hyper lateral G, or any "statistical" numerics that people usually relate in comparison.
This time, you REALLY NEED to get in the driver's seat and chuck it around to understand the refinement of any of these new cars.
Maybe Toyota engineers are telling the general consumers to WAKE UP and smell the roses, cars are not about devices and gadgets, but about driving pleasure.
If that's the case, I have a newly found love for the "new" Toyota thinking.
With the FRS and GS. What next?
Since everyone seems to have the same size gun, I think it's going to come down to how well you use it. Yes, there will be revisions and updates to engines and transmissions that one-up the competition for a few months at a time, but with horsepower and weight increasing in unison (in most cases), I wonder how much progress will actually be made in 0-60 times and the 1/4 mile.
Going forward, I think that things like balance, composure, driving dynamics, MPG and technology are going to be what distinguishes one or two cars from the endless pack of others. Considering that, I do hope that cars like the LFA, FR-S and GS are the look of what is to come from ToMoCo. They're "full-package" products that might sacrifice some straight-line gusto to provide a more wholesome, balanced driving experience. I'm more than willing to accept that! My butt-o-meter can't really tell the difference between 5.3 seconds 0-60 and 5.7, but I think I do a decent job at gauging feedback from the steering wheel, weight transfer and general confidence in the abilities of a chassis.
I'd never have thought I'd see the day where CAR magazine says a Lexus is a better driver's car than the flagship Lamborghini. I do think hell might have finally frozen over
.
12-15-11, 07:52 AM
#1885
well I question actual MPG in FR-S... with quick throttle response and short gearing, you will not see some uber awesome EPA rating.
A lot of MPG gains came grom extra long gearing and very slow throttle response.
A lot of MPG gains came grom extra long gearing and very slow throttle response.
12-15-11, 09:21 AM
#1886
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I might trade in my recently purchased 2012 Accord coupe if the MPG is close to mid-20s combined. So let's pray for that.
12-15-11, 08:17 PM
#1887
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How the Scion FR-S Almost Never Happened and Why Subaru Thought it Was a Bad Idea
86 Under the Skin: Technical details on the Toyota/Subaru/Scion, 86/GT-86/FR-S/BRZ
The Scion FR-S might be the most exciting sports car in years and it might also be the most important project Toyota has ever launched, helping change perceptions about an automaker that has become known for building appliances. But the back-to-basics enthusiast sports car almost never happened, according to Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada, speaking at the car’s launch last week in Japan.
The concept for the car, originally the brain child of then Toyota VP Akio Toyoda (the man currently at the helm of the world’s largest automaker), was initially rejected by Subaru, which eventually went on to donate the engine to the project and even handle the lion’s share of the sports car’s development, resulting in both the Scion FR-S (also known as the Toyota GT 86 in Europe or just the 86 in Japan) and Subaru BRZ.
Shortly after Toyoda took the helm, Tada san was assigned to a planning division set up for the project. After studying what everyone else was doing, (seeing the use of turbochargers, all-wheel drive and high grip tires), Toyota decided to move in the opposite direction, instead opting to build a sports car that harkens back to the roots of machines like the AE86 – from which the GT86 gets its name. It occurred to Tada san that an ideal powerplant would be a boxer engine, due to its low center of gravity. Toyota had an historical precedent for the use of a boxer engine in the Sports 800, built from 1965 to 1969. Toyota also just so happened to have access to such engines through a recent purchase of shares in Subaru parent company Fuji Heavy Industries, and a shared project could help foster relations between the two rival automakers.
A proposal was penned, for a rear-drive, boxer powered sports car and presented to Subaru, which immediately axed it. Subaru executives had two major concerns says Tada san, the first being that a rear-drive machine doesn’t fit with Subaru’s all-wheel drive brand message. The second reservation, and one that speaks to Toyota’s newfound attitude of taking ownership of its beige-to-drive past, is the admission that Subaru didn’t think Toyota could build a sports car. And while harsh, it’s not entirely surprising, after all, the last sporty Toyota was a Celica GTS in 2006 and the last rear-drive Toyota car to roll off an assembly line (at least for US consumption) was in 2005.
The project was then suspended for six months but eventually the team involved at Toyota helped convince the powers that be at Subaru. Exactly how that happened remains a mystery, although one possible conclusion can be drawn from a graph Toyota revealed to AutoGuide and a group of journalists gathered to drive the car at Sodegaura Forest Raceway, just outside Tokyo. On it is a breakdown of who handled what in bringing the GT86/BRZ to market. In the end, teams at Toyota were responsible for planning and design while manufacturing and development were handed over to Subaru. The concept may have been Toyota’s, but Subaru, a company with plenty of recent and current enthusiast-targeted models, was tasked with ensuring the FR-S/BRZ was a fun-to-drive, dynamic handling machine. Toyota representatives steered clear of confirming as much, but it would seem a compromise was struck, with Subaru bending on the rear-drive architecture. In exchange, Toyota handed over development of its sports car to Subaru.
As a result, the first prototype was build back in 2008, and was what one Toyota exec referred to as “proof of concept”, prompting both automakers for forge ahead with development and design, leading first to the FT86 concept at the Tokyo Motor Show in November of 2009, through numerous concept cars, all the way to the official reveal at the same show two years later, our recent gushing test-drive, and a planned on-sale date of this Spring.
The concept for the car, originally the brain child of then Toyota VP Akio Toyoda (the man currently at the helm of the world’s largest automaker), was initially rejected by Subaru, which eventually went on to donate the engine to the project and even handle the lion’s share of the sports car’s development, resulting in both the Scion FR-S (also known as the Toyota GT 86 in Europe or just the 86 in Japan) and Subaru BRZ.
Shortly after Toyoda took the helm, Tada san was assigned to a planning division set up for the project. After studying what everyone else was doing, (seeing the use of turbochargers, all-wheel drive and high grip tires), Toyota decided to move in the opposite direction, instead opting to build a sports car that harkens back to the roots of machines like the AE86 – from which the GT86 gets its name. It occurred to Tada san that an ideal powerplant would be a boxer engine, due to its low center of gravity. Toyota had an historical precedent for the use of a boxer engine in the Sports 800, built from 1965 to 1969. Toyota also just so happened to have access to such engines through a recent purchase of shares in Subaru parent company Fuji Heavy Industries, and a shared project could help foster relations between the two rival automakers.
A proposal was penned, for a rear-drive, boxer powered sports car and presented to Subaru, which immediately axed it. Subaru executives had two major concerns says Tada san, the first being that a rear-drive machine doesn’t fit with Subaru’s all-wheel drive brand message. The second reservation, and one that speaks to Toyota’s newfound attitude of taking ownership of its beige-to-drive past, is the admission that Subaru didn’t think Toyota could build a sports car. And while harsh, it’s not entirely surprising, after all, the last sporty Toyota was a Celica GTS in 2006 and the last rear-drive Toyota car to roll off an assembly line (at least for US consumption) was in 2005.
The project was then suspended for six months but eventually the team involved at Toyota helped convince the powers that be at Subaru. Exactly how that happened remains a mystery, although one possible conclusion can be drawn from a graph Toyota revealed to AutoGuide and a group of journalists gathered to drive the car at Sodegaura Forest Raceway, just outside Tokyo. On it is a breakdown of who handled what in bringing the GT86/BRZ to market. In the end, teams at Toyota were responsible for planning and design while manufacturing and development were handed over to Subaru. The concept may have been Toyota’s, but Subaru, a company with plenty of recent and current enthusiast-targeted models, was tasked with ensuring the FR-S/BRZ was a fun-to-drive, dynamic handling machine. Toyota representatives steered clear of confirming as much, but it would seem a compromise was struck, with Subaru bending on the rear-drive architecture. In exchange, Toyota handed over development of its sports car to Subaru.
As a result, the first prototype was build back in 2008, and was what one Toyota exec referred to as “proof of concept”, prompting both automakers for forge ahead with development and design, leading first to the FT86 concept at the Tokyo Motor Show in November of 2009, through numerous concept cars, all the way to the official reveal at the same show two years later, our recent gushing test-drive, and a planned on-sale date of this Spring.
Over the last 87 weeks, the slow, agonizing reveal of the Toyota FT-86 (show car)/Toyota 86 (JDM production model)/Toyota GT 86 (Europe)/Scion FR-S (U.S.)/Subaru BRZ (everywhere) has been dribbling a Chinese water torture of information on us. Today's drop, the official U.S. unveiling of the Scion FR-S version, revealed almost no new information. The only true surprise was the fact that we don't have to order the trick 86 boxer badge (above) from Japan. The FR-S will wear the badge even here.
We did get closer to the car than ever before, though, and we've learned a few things about the innards over the last few days, so here's the full MotoIQ brain dump:
First of all, it's the right size. Just a hair bigger than a Miata, but with more space inside. So stop comparing it to that behemoth from Hyundai!
Second, it's reasonably close to the right weight. Japanese versions are supposedly 2689 pounds, but the Japanese tend to weigh their cars dry, offer more stripped-to-the-bone versions (like no stereo, no A/C), and have lighter bumpers and door beams. All indications are that U.S. models will be about 100 pounds heavier.
Third, it was developed with the right attitude. Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada was quoted saying:
“There is a Toyota standard for designing new cars. This standard was to a large extent ignored. Why did we do this? There are cars that are accepted by a lot of people. Practical cars that are easy to drive and that do not break easily. These are standard Toyota cars. The 86 is not a car like that. We had to change our design approach for this car. We may have to do this again for other cars.
It is impossible to develop a sports car that appeals to everybody. If you try to please everybody, the car would be half-baked for everybody, and not particularly good for anybody. This car is not developed by a committee, or by consensus.”
Under the hood we know some interesting things.
1: There is no engine cover. You can see the engine when you open the hood! This Tada guy obviously gets it.
2: The engine is a unique mish-mash of Subaru and Toyota technology. The bottom (middle?) end is supposedly based on the new FB20, but the square 86 x 86mm bore and stroke (the standard FB is undersquare) calls that little factoid into question. When Toyota wants to make horsepower, they pick up their red phone and call Yamaha. Yamaha did the 2ZZGE head, the 3SGTE head, and if you go back far enough, they even did the engine in the 2000GT. Word is Yamaha is responsible for the heads on this one too.
Toyota's bizarrely complex but very effective direct and port injection system is in place, with fuel delivery split between two parallel sets of injectors, one in the intake ports and one in the cylinders.
Those Yamaha heads and direct injection are apparently pretty damn knock resistant. Compression is 12.5:1
You already know this, but just for the record, Scion is saying 200 hp at 7000 rpm, 151 lb-ft of torque at 6600 rpm, and redline is 7400 rpm. Those numbers are all very slightly different than we've seen before, but are close enough not to matter.
Other things we can tell from this picture of the engine bay:
The big hose teeing off the intake looks like it's piping sound to the interior. This is a relatively common thing these days. When the intake is placed way up in cold-air land forward of the radiator, the only way to get good intake honkus sounds to the guy making the payments is to pipe the sound in through a membrane (kinda like a rugged speaker cone with no driver) that lets sound pass through without letting unfiltered air slip by. Miatas use these, Mustangs use these, and they're quite common in Europe where drive-by noise regulations make it nearly impossible for a car to sound good without one.
The lack of a power steering pump indicates electric power steering. The fact that it's nearly 2012 also indicates electric power steering. Hope it doesn't suck.
There will never be an all-wheel-drive version. Never.
How can we tell? The front diff needs to be roughly in line with the front wheel centerline, and with a Subaru layout, the front diff sits behind the clutch. In this car, the middle of the engine sits on the front wheel centerline. The engine would have to move forward nearly a foot to make all-wheel drive possible, and that's just not going to happen.
And that's fine with us. The weight distribution is already 53/47. We don't need it any more front heavy.
We were planning to bring you fresh information on the exhaust manifold layout (will the primaries be paired Subaru-style for that off-beat sound, or will they be properly paired for good breathing?) and subframe clearance for future turbo models, but this undercover foiled that plan. At least the car will be slippery.
Looks like the engine uses a proper 4-2-1 header, which means it will sound like a proper 4-cylinder, not like a WRX. Love that fact or hate it (I'm on the fence) this manifold is surely a large part of why this engine is capable of 100 hp per liter.
The Subaru 1.6 turbo sitting right next to the BRZ/86/FT-S engine. Though there are no claims this will go in the 86, it doens't take much imagination to see it being done, either by them or by us. This turbo packaging is very friendly for the 86's FR layout, since there will be tons of room in front for a bigger turbo. This packaging makes a twin-scroll a no-brainer, since you could essentially have the same manifold as the non-turbo engine, but with a turbo flange right after the 4-2 collectors. It would also be much easier to simply put the intercooler in front, where it belongs, and connect to the already forward-facing throttle body.
It's not clear how Subaru is dealing with oil drainage, since the turbo's oil drain is down below the oil line in the pan, but the fact that Subaru already worked it out for us makes it much easier when we turbocharge one of these ourselves.
The dual direct/port injection system now makes perfect sense. It's easier for tuners to leave the direct injectors alone and add bigger port injectors for boosted fueling.
There doesn't appear to be any camber adjustment in the MacPherson strut front suspension. The top mounts (visible in the engine shot) look suspiciously like Impreza top mounts. That's just fine, since Impreza mounts are indestructible, but there's no adjustment there.
Down here, the lower control arm is an L-arm, with the steering rack in the back and the L part of the arm pointing forward. If there was going to be camber adjustment down here, it would be on that lower control arm bushing just below the steering arm. No such luck.
The arm itself is a simple steel arm. It's a single stamping that should be lightweight, cheap, and easy to bend if you try to do traditional Subaru things with it.
The last chance for camber adjustment would be here, at the strut mount. There should be an eccentric on one of those bolts, but again, no luck.
The front calipers are two-piston sliders. These look a lot like Impreza calipers to us, which would mean there's already a huge array of performance pads available for the 86 before it ever hits the showroom. Assuming they were nice enough to carry over mounting points, there will be brake upgrades galore as well.
The multilink rear suspension does appear to be from an Impreza, as suspected. Long lower control arms look the same. Forged steel upper A-arm looks the same. Stamped steel trailing arm looks the same. The differential in an Impreza, though, is a Hitachi R160. Subaru has been using versions of this diff since the '80s, and Nissan started using it back in 1967 (when they built the first 1968 510s). This is not an R160, though.
Imprezas only put 50% of their power to the back, so a diff ready to handle 200 hp would be on a 400 hp Impreza. Sadly, Subaru doesn't make such a thing. When they make a 300-hp Impreza, though, they use an R180 (Same diff Nissan used in 1969 on the 1970 240Z). This is also not an R180...
If anyone recognizes this diff, shout it out. We've never seen it before and fear it might be new. Carryover diffs are always good, since they mean abundant selection of gear ratios and limited slips.
Finally, wheels and tires are mixed news.
The wheels appear to be 17x7.5, and the bolt pattern is, sadly, Subaru's standard 5x100. There has been rampant speculation on this subject in the last few days, but I got on my knees and measured. This bolt patern severely limits wheel selection, which is a damn shame.
The 215/45-17 tire size is actually good news. 225/45-17s will slap right on, and that's a well supported size, with lots of performance tires available. The factory tire is a Michelin Primacy HP. No idea how bad that is. Factory tires are always engineered to the manufacturer's specs, so even if you've had experience with a tire that claims to be a Primacy HP, it's unlikely to be the same tire. The 240 treadwear rating is the only hint we have.
Other than the fact that it actually looks better in person and that we all want one now, that's all the info we have on the 86. There are a few more shots being processed and uploaded, so we'll update this page as soon as we have them.
Expect the car to go on sale in March or April.
We did get closer to the car than ever before, though, and we've learned a few things about the innards over the last few days, so here's the full MotoIQ brain dump:
First of all, it's the right size. Just a hair bigger than a Miata, but with more space inside. So stop comparing it to that behemoth from Hyundai!
Second, it's reasonably close to the right weight. Japanese versions are supposedly 2689 pounds, but the Japanese tend to weigh their cars dry, offer more stripped-to-the-bone versions (like no stereo, no A/C), and have lighter bumpers and door beams. All indications are that U.S. models will be about 100 pounds heavier.
Third, it was developed with the right attitude. Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada was quoted saying:
“There is a Toyota standard for designing new cars. This standard was to a large extent ignored. Why did we do this? There are cars that are accepted by a lot of people. Practical cars that are easy to drive and that do not break easily. These are standard Toyota cars. The 86 is not a car like that. We had to change our design approach for this car. We may have to do this again for other cars.
It is impossible to develop a sports car that appeals to everybody. If you try to please everybody, the car would be half-baked for everybody, and not particularly good for anybody. This car is not developed by a committee, or by consensus.”
Under the hood we know some interesting things.
1: There is no engine cover. You can see the engine when you open the hood! This Tada guy obviously gets it.
2: The engine is a unique mish-mash of Subaru and Toyota technology. The bottom (middle?) end is supposedly based on the new FB20, but the square 86 x 86mm bore and stroke (the standard FB is undersquare) calls that little factoid into question. When Toyota wants to make horsepower, they pick up their red phone and call Yamaha. Yamaha did the 2ZZGE head, the 3SGTE head, and if you go back far enough, they even did the engine in the 2000GT. Word is Yamaha is responsible for the heads on this one too.
Toyota's bizarrely complex but very effective direct and port injection system is in place, with fuel delivery split between two parallel sets of injectors, one in the intake ports and one in the cylinders.
Those Yamaha heads and direct injection are apparently pretty damn knock resistant. Compression is 12.5:1
You already know this, but just for the record, Scion is saying 200 hp at 7000 rpm, 151 lb-ft of torque at 6600 rpm, and redline is 7400 rpm. Those numbers are all very slightly different than we've seen before, but are close enough not to matter.
Other things we can tell from this picture of the engine bay:
The big hose teeing off the intake looks like it's piping sound to the interior. This is a relatively common thing these days. When the intake is placed way up in cold-air land forward of the radiator, the only way to get good intake honkus sounds to the guy making the payments is to pipe the sound in through a membrane (kinda like a rugged speaker cone with no driver) that lets sound pass through without letting unfiltered air slip by. Miatas use these, Mustangs use these, and they're quite common in Europe where drive-by noise regulations make it nearly impossible for a car to sound good without one.
The lack of a power steering pump indicates electric power steering. The fact that it's nearly 2012 also indicates electric power steering. Hope it doesn't suck.
There will never be an all-wheel-drive version. Never.
How can we tell? The front diff needs to be roughly in line with the front wheel centerline, and with a Subaru layout, the front diff sits behind the clutch. In this car, the middle of the engine sits on the front wheel centerline. The engine would have to move forward nearly a foot to make all-wheel drive possible, and that's just not going to happen.
And that's fine with us. The weight distribution is already 53/47. We don't need it any more front heavy.
We were planning to bring you fresh information on the exhaust manifold layout (will the primaries be paired Subaru-style for that off-beat sound, or will they be properly paired for good breathing?) and subframe clearance for future turbo models, but this undercover foiled that plan. At least the car will be slippery.
Looks like the engine uses a proper 4-2-1 header, which means it will sound like a proper 4-cylinder, not like a WRX. Love that fact or hate it (I'm on the fence) this manifold is surely a large part of why this engine is capable of 100 hp per liter.
The Subaru 1.6 turbo sitting right next to the BRZ/86/FT-S engine. Though there are no claims this will go in the 86, it doens't take much imagination to see it being done, either by them or by us. This turbo packaging is very friendly for the 86's FR layout, since there will be tons of room in front for a bigger turbo. This packaging makes a twin-scroll a no-brainer, since you could essentially have the same manifold as the non-turbo engine, but with a turbo flange right after the 4-2 collectors. It would also be much easier to simply put the intercooler in front, where it belongs, and connect to the already forward-facing throttle body.
It's not clear how Subaru is dealing with oil drainage, since the turbo's oil drain is down below the oil line in the pan, but the fact that Subaru already worked it out for us makes it much easier when we turbocharge one of these ourselves.
The dual direct/port injection system now makes perfect sense. It's easier for tuners to leave the direct injectors alone and add bigger port injectors for boosted fueling.
There doesn't appear to be any camber adjustment in the MacPherson strut front suspension. The top mounts (visible in the engine shot) look suspiciously like Impreza top mounts. That's just fine, since Impreza mounts are indestructible, but there's no adjustment there.
Down here, the lower control arm is an L-arm, with the steering rack in the back and the L part of the arm pointing forward. If there was going to be camber adjustment down here, it would be on that lower control arm bushing just below the steering arm. No such luck.
The arm itself is a simple steel arm. It's a single stamping that should be lightweight, cheap, and easy to bend if you try to do traditional Subaru things with it.
The last chance for camber adjustment would be here, at the strut mount. There should be an eccentric on one of those bolts, but again, no luck.
The front calipers are two-piston sliders. These look a lot like Impreza calipers to us, which would mean there's already a huge array of performance pads available for the 86 before it ever hits the showroom. Assuming they were nice enough to carry over mounting points, there will be brake upgrades galore as well.
The multilink rear suspension does appear to be from an Impreza, as suspected. Long lower control arms look the same. Forged steel upper A-arm looks the same. Stamped steel trailing arm looks the same. The differential in an Impreza, though, is a Hitachi R160. Subaru has been using versions of this diff since the '80s, and Nissan started using it back in 1967 (when they built the first 1968 510s). This is not an R160, though.
Imprezas only put 50% of their power to the back, so a diff ready to handle 200 hp would be on a 400 hp Impreza. Sadly, Subaru doesn't make such a thing. When they make a 300-hp Impreza, though, they use an R180 (Same diff Nissan used in 1969 on the 1970 240Z). This is also not an R180...
If anyone recognizes this diff, shout it out. We've never seen it before and fear it might be new. Carryover diffs are always good, since they mean abundant selection of gear ratios and limited slips.
Finally, wheels and tires are mixed news.
The wheels appear to be 17x7.5, and the bolt pattern is, sadly, Subaru's standard 5x100. There has been rampant speculation on this subject in the last few days, but I got on my knees and measured. This bolt patern severely limits wheel selection, which is a damn shame.
The 215/45-17 tire size is actually good news. 225/45-17s will slap right on, and that's a well supported size, with lots of performance tires available. The factory tire is a Michelin Primacy HP. No idea how bad that is. Factory tires are always engineered to the manufacturer's specs, so even if you've had experience with a tire that claims to be a Primacy HP, it's unlikely to be the same tire. The 240 treadwear rating is the only hint we have.
Other than the fact that it actually looks better in person and that we all want one now, that's all the info we have on the 86. There are a few more shots being processed and uploaded, so we'll update this page as soon as we have them.
Expect the car to go on sale in March or April.
12-16-11, 12:18 AM
#1888
Of course, with an engine as flexible as this, with peak power at around 200hp. It really depends on the driver's habits as well...but even at spirited driving, the GDI and high compression rate will certainly attribute to 20-30% increase in fuel economy over traditional sports engines which required lots of rich mixtures to keep from detonation (or we say in America, Knock or Ping)
Also, quick response has not much to do with fuel economy as much as just a formula of having light flywheel, crank, high compression, and a responsive throttle plenum, butterfly, and linkage. Gearing is rather not how tall or how short, but having a range from low to high that allows the car to operate at peak efficiency at each given speed. So in this area, a wide spread of having 6 speed transmission in either AT or MT for this car, should result and contribute to high efficiency too, if the driving is judicious to allow it. (again, that's dependent if the driver knows when to shift for best economy...)
Last edited by motohide; 12-16-11 at 12:32 AM.
12-16-11, 07:53 AM
#1889
I am sure it will be more than that... but they could probably eek out extra 3-4 mpg just by slowing the throttle response and adding longer gearing.
12-16-11, 07:55 AM
#1890
Preliminary reports say that with a combination of very light and aerodynamic body, and GDI (gasoline direct injection) engine operating at 12.5:1 but with no requirements for adding fuel to cool the cylinder temps like traditional gasoline manifold injected engine. This car will do well over 30mpg. Most likely in the 34 mpg range if used in mild street/highway driving.
Of course, with an engine as flexible as this, with peak power at around 200hp. It really depends on the driver's habits as well...but even at spirited driving, the GDI and high compression rate will certainly attribute to 20-30% increase in fuel economy over traditional sports engines which required lots of rich mixtures to keep from detonation (or we say in America, Knock or Ping)
Also, quick response has not much to do with fuel economy as much as just a formula of having light flywheel, crank, high compression, and a responsive throttle plenum, butterfly, and linkage. Gearing is rather not how tall or how short, but having a range from low to high that allows the car to operate at peak efficiency at each given speed. So in this area, a wide spread of having 6 speed transmission in either AT or MT for this car, should result and contribute to high efficiency too, if the driving is judicious to allow it. (again, that's dependent if the driver knows when to shift for best economy...)
Of course, with an engine as flexible as this, with peak power at around 200hp. It really depends on the driver's habits as well...but even at spirited driving, the GDI and high compression rate will certainly attribute to 20-30% increase in fuel economy over traditional sports engines which required lots of rich mixtures to keep from detonation (or we say in America, Knock or Ping)
Also, quick response has not much to do with fuel economy as much as just a formula of having light flywheel, crank, high compression, and a responsive throttle plenum, butterfly, and linkage. Gearing is rather not how tall or how short, but having a range from low to high that allows the car to operate at peak efficiency at each given speed. So in this area, a wide spread of having 6 speed transmission in either AT or MT for this car, should result and contribute to high efficiency too, if the driving is judicious to allow it. (again, that's dependent if the driver knows when to shift for best economy...)