TRDFantasy

In objective performance numbers, with VDIM turned off, the IS350 handles about equally to the G35, and can hang with the 335i. The IS though has a different steering feel, and overall car feel inside the cabin than the G35 or the 335i. The G35 has a choppy ride that can get uncomfortable awfully fast. And that is the G35C I'm talking about. Let's not even get into the ride quality of the G35 sedan. The 3 Series has a stiff, albeit more solid and comfortable ride.

It's all relative. Toyota has figured out how to make decent handling cars with good ride comfort. BMW and Nissan have not. While Nissan and BMW models generally handle somewhat better than comparable Toyota models, they also possess a stiffer, and often choppier ride.

A really neat trick would be for an automaker to offer a supreme handling car, with very good ride comfort. But that requires some very fancy active suspension systems, not to mention extensive knowledge in chassis, dampening and suspension dynamics.

Speaking of chassis and suspension dynamics, Toyota has learned a great deal over the decades it's had in motorsports participation. And now being in F1 for a few years, it's learning more than ever.

shyguy16

the Camary won because it was the most rounded vehicle of the bunch. NOT because it was the sportiest or best handling.

The above quotes clearly indicate that the Altima has better handling AND steering feel.
Face it, generalizations materialize because they are true to a certain degree for the most part. and i'm sure most will agree that toyota's are more refined and subdued, more suited for day to day driving, and less sporty than their competitors.

shyguy16

sure, but objective numbers only tell part of the story. the other half is the subjective feel part that the 3er and G35 are superior in. it's this feel that inspires one to take corners faster...sorry to sound like a german fanboy, i won't even mention soul
The IS350 can make up time around a track due to a more powerful motor in the straights where the other two will dominate the corners (except the 335 excels in both aspects).

Trust me, i love Lexus as much as you guys do, but I won't be a blind fanboy and make false claims that the Lexus handles as well as BMW and Infiniti (they're definitely getting closer though, I will give them that).
I am wishing that Lexus improve their product handling wise, because with that and reliability and quality, they'd have the perfect product.
And also wish they'd offer a manual

Incendiary

I was of the belief that the only place where Audi is held in particularly high esteem is Germany, and to a lesser extent the rest of the Continent...

mavericck

Thats just an American notion. Americans also like to think that everyone else thinks like they do...also an American misconception.

Kaban

Nope I don't know too much about Colin Chapman unfortunately.... the point I link it was refering to the other link to the article, the first sentence they say "Toyota Developed" well I stoped reading after that because it was total BS. I don't know who makes the technology but chances are it is by a German company.

Mercedes didn't copy Lotus because they never claim they developed it in the first place to confuse the public. In my brochure they gave me when I bought my E500 it says it is "equipied with" if they invented something they will let you know about it but they never try to be shady about something they didn't have credit for. But you know what? I wouldn't be suprised if MB had a hand in it perfecting that technology.

btw that drawing in that article is painfully similar to MBs airmatic, even in the jargon used to describe it. If they show any real pictures of it I bet you can see MB's logo scratched off with a Toyota sticker over it

Kaban

Ah, thanks for the correction...I was never a good speller.

picus

What is relative is comfort. That's the subjective measure in this theoretical example of yours.

MR_F1

@ Kaban ..

Seems like your R & C arent up to scratch either, because it says and I quote
'To improve stability, controllability and ride comfort, TOYOTA has developed an integrated chassis control system consisting of Active Four Wheel Steering (A-4WS), Active Hydropneumatic Suspension (A-SUS), ABS and TRC. The system, which is available on the current '91 model SOARER sold on the domestic market, realises a significant advance in total vehicle dynamics - due partly to the superior characteristics of the new A-4WS and A-SUS and partly to the enhancement accruing from integration - and makes an important contribution to active safety.'

They came up with the system to integrate all those technologies, not necessarily the technologies themselves. Even so, there is more than one way to build an active suspension system.. no copying and pasting going on here. Are you implying that toyota used a time machine to go forward in time and copy MBs design so they could come out with it first?

According to you, you didnt even read the rest of the article, so i'm more inclined to think that you are more full of BS than the article is.
P.S. Colin Chapman is english, just like the company he works for, Lotus.
and you are welcomed

Kaban

I came up with a system where I put Intel cpu into a motherboard and memory I call it Kaban is King system. Yes its called a computer but hey it's my technology I "developed" I should get credit for it and you should be kissing my a$$ for using my system



Ah, thanks for backing up my point. It seems Toyota and that article likes to use Jargon and change the name of the technology owned by others and claim their own.

Since you quoted the article for me I'll tell you what those jargon means.

TRC = Real name for that technology is called ETC electronic traction control. Developed by Mercedes in 1990.

Active Hydropneumatic Suspension =(HA!) Real name is Airmatic, air bag, active suspension or what ever the inventor wants to call it. I never said MB owns it.

Active four wheel steering = Oh snap! Real name is ESP electronic stability program. Developed by MB in 1995

ABS = anti-lock braking system. Hell no Toyota didn't develop it.


Just because they took a bunch of stuff and put it together doesn't mean they developed a system, besides everyone else are already using it in their cars.

Now there seems to be a time disparity where they got hold of technology which didn't exist until later, you care to back it up with more than just that 1 article? (I can surely back up the stuff I said MB invented) I do enjoy debating with you so I look forward to your answer on that time traveling thing.

JZA80MHU38

Let me see... been to Taiwan once... have a lot of Taiwanese classmates in the US, which didn't talk about Audi, none of them own an Audi, but they sure buy or dream about buying MB and BMW...

Oh, about HK. Born and raised there. Still go back every year. Send me any question about Hong Kong and I will try my best to educate you.

Just because the son of the richest peron in Hong Kong likes using Audi, or couple high-profile singers drive them, didn't make it a brand that's equal to BMW and MB. Just look at the sales figure for August and Sept in 2006 for HK, with the first number being Sept's figure, and number in parenthese as August's figure:

Audi: 84 (54)
BMW: 263 (189)
Mercedes Benz: 372 (227)

Just to throw in couple more brand names for comparison:
Lexus: 113 (187)
Volkswagen 84 (89)
Porsche: 52 (53)

Source: CarPlus Magazine Nov 06 Issue 159

See? Audi's number just can't touch BMW's and Mercedes. You may raise another point saying "Oh Audi offers fewer choices in their line up, so the total sales should be lower". Well, not so true. Here's the sales record of individual models in Sept 2006 for the aforementioned 6 brand names:

3, Mercedes Benz C200 - 79
4, Lexus IS250 - 78
6, Mercedes Benz E280 - 67
7, BMW 323i - 65
11, Mercedes Benz B200 - 46
12, BMW 750Li - 43
13 (tie), BMW 525i, Mercedes Benz S350L - 42
15, Mercedes Benz S500L - 32
16, Audi Q7 4.2 - 30
20, VW Golf GTi - 25

The only Audi cars on the list is the Q7, and it's a brand new model. Me being to Hong Kong/Taiwan or not may not influence me to agree with you or not, but the numbers sure do not agree with you.

JZA80MHU38

Kaban, agree with your point of view. But here's a correction -- ESP is basically a stability control system using the individual brake (usually 4-channel ABS) and throttle control (tardiness of firing, for example) to bring the car back to the "intended" path. Active four wheel steering, on the other hand, has more to do with the design of the rear suspension component.

For the active suspension and ABS, automaker or auto parts maker (like Bosch, Siemens, etc) did take a page out of the book from the airplane industry.

JZA80MHU38

Agree, it's all relative. BMW and Nissan have figured out how to make great handling cars with decent ride comfort. Toyota/Lexus has not.

It's all about personal preference. I think the best-of-both-world product is the 3-series without the sport suspension.

MR_F1

Do yourself a favour and just read the damn article. You obviously dont want to accept the truth and I have better things to do than to try and get you to believe FACTS. Google is also your friend, wikipedia is not. Look up the info yourself.

1-GM first came up with electronic traction control in 1971. Electronic Stability control was Invented by Bosch (and used by MB.....copy paste?). TRC is traction control, not stability control.
2-A-sus is NOT an airbag uspension
3-see part 1 and 4-wheel steering is definitely NOT a stability program
4-duh!


p.s. IBM was doing that before you, so you can kiss my a$$ for teaching you something you didnt know

p.p.s. while you are at it, pick up a dictionary and see differences between 'invent' and 'develop'

Kaban

Well...you still haven't given us any prove of the facts on that article...so I don't think I want to read that BS article. Did you wrote that article or something? I mean daamm man...

Google? Naw...I don't want to find anymore crazy article about "Toyota developed..." or that even crazer story about GM.