The latest in Lexus Reliability Data
11-24-06, 09:59 AM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
The latest in Lexus Reliability Data
Well, folks......the new CONSUMER REPORTS 2007 New-Car Preview, which is issued every year in December ( with the Annual New-Car Issue to follow in April ) is now on sale. I've spent part of the last several days going though its latest reliability data, ( CR, of course, is the best data in the buisness for auto reliability )....and being primarily a Lexus crowd, I'm sure that this is the data that most of you are more interested in than for any other make of car .
We've talked a lot about the new Lexus GS, ES, and IS, and about the new models vs. the old ones. I myself have reviewed three new Lexus models....the new, redesigned 2006 GS300 AWD, the 2007 ES350, and IS250 AWD ( I also have the LS460 on my schedule ). Without going into all the details of each redesign ( see my individual reviews for that ), I can sum up that I was, overall, quite pleased with the new GS, so-so about the new IS, and downright dissappointed with new ES. The new GS, I thought, was a superb machine; the IS given more interior flash and plushness but with cheaper-quality parts, and the ES just cheapened all the way through...and a stiffer ride to boot.
Well, some surprises with these three new products in the reliability department.......from what I consider to be the best source in the buisness.
This data, of course, is for one year only, of course, as they are all relatively new designs, and is not necessarily an indication of long-term reliability, but it does give us an insight into how well they are actually holding up in the hands of consumers. CR apparantly has enough input and enough data on these 3 vehicles to publish some figures.
First, the GS300 AWD. I was very impressed, on my review, with this car, inside and out....and, along with the new SH-AWD Acura RL, considered it one of the ten best cars I have ever driven. Its interior, despite a too-low-roof and an awkward place for the flip-down power mirror controls, was the very definition of impeccability....as was its superb paint job ( especially in Matador red
). Its road manners and refinement were equally superb.
Yet, in actual service, the car's repair record for the new 2006 model dropped substantially, from the much-better-than-average of the last model to average. The new car was strong in reliability in many areas but was notably weak in body integrity and electronics ( unusual for a Lexus product ).
Second, the ES350. This car, IMO, was a major disappointment this year compared to the old model, in the cheaper-quality parts inside, the removal of a lot of the beautiful wood trim, the stiffer ride from the lower-profile tires and stiffer chassis this year, and the noticeable dash squeaks and rattles on my test car. Yet the first-year repair record was a real surprise...actually better than the old car. Lexus, IMO, built a cheaper-looking and cheaper-feeling ES this , but apparantly a MORE reliable one. Its reliability was superb in every category, ( much better than average ) with solid red circles down the whole list......surprising, IMO, because based on my experience in the review and the dash rattles of my test car, I would have guessed it lacking in body integrity ( squeaks and rattles ).
Third, the IS250 RWD ( CR only had data for the RWD model ). I found the new IS250 somewhat flashier and more plush inside than the old car, but, like the ES, with some lower-quality hardware underneath that new-found flash. And the loss of the 55-series tire option was a major disapointment. But the new IS, in actual service, has held up pretty well.....but not quite as good as the old car. It earned a better-than-average record for its first year, down from the previous model's much-better-than-average. It was strong in most of the areas that really mattered.....and earned full-red circles in major-componennt areas like engine, transmission, and drive system, and yes .... electrical system, but was slightly weaker in a number of other areas.
I cannot post pictures or graphs, for two reasons, first, because CR partially restricts access to its data on-line, and second, my picture-scanning skills and equipment are next to zero. But I can share with you all what I read.
So.....what does this teach us? You can sometimes judge a car's potential reliability by its cover......but not always.
We've talked a lot about the new Lexus GS, ES, and IS, and about the new models vs. the old ones. I myself have reviewed three new Lexus models....the new, redesigned 2006 GS300 AWD, the 2007 ES350, and IS250 AWD ( I also have the LS460 on my schedule ). Without going into all the details of each redesign ( see my individual reviews for that ), I can sum up that I was, overall, quite pleased with the new GS, so-so about the new IS, and downright dissappointed with new ES. The new GS, I thought, was a superb machine; the IS given more interior flash and plushness but with cheaper-quality parts, and the ES just cheapened all the way through...and a stiffer ride to boot.
Well, some surprises with these three new products in the reliability department.......from what I consider to be the best source in the buisness.
This data, of course, is for one year only, of course, as they are all relatively new designs, and is not necessarily an indication of long-term reliability, but it does give us an insight into how well they are actually holding up in the hands of consumers. CR apparantly has enough input and enough data on these 3 vehicles to publish some figures.
First, the GS300 AWD. I was very impressed, on my review, with this car, inside and out....and, along with the new SH-AWD Acura RL, considered it one of the ten best cars I have ever driven. Its interior, despite a too-low-roof and an awkward place for the flip-down power mirror controls, was the very definition of impeccability....as was its superb paint job ( especially in Matador red
). Its road manners and refinement were equally superb. Yet, in actual service, the car's repair record for the new 2006 model dropped substantially, from the much-better-than-average of the last model to average. The new car was strong in reliability in many areas but was notably weak in body integrity and electronics ( unusual for a Lexus product ).
Second, the ES350. This car, IMO, was a major disappointment this year compared to the old model, in the cheaper-quality parts inside, the removal of a lot of the beautiful wood trim, the stiffer ride from the lower-profile tires and stiffer chassis this year, and the noticeable dash squeaks and rattles on my test car. Yet the first-year repair record was a real surprise...actually better than the old car. Lexus, IMO, built a cheaper-looking and cheaper-feeling ES this , but apparantly a MORE reliable one. Its reliability was superb in every category, ( much better than average ) with solid red circles down the whole list......surprising, IMO, because based on my experience in the review and the dash rattles of my test car, I would have guessed it lacking in body integrity ( squeaks and rattles ).
Third, the IS250 RWD ( CR only had data for the RWD model ). I found the new IS250 somewhat flashier and more plush inside than the old car, but, like the ES, with some lower-quality hardware underneath that new-found flash. And the loss of the 55-series tire option was a major disapointment. But the new IS, in actual service, has held up pretty well.....but not quite as good as the old car. It earned a better-than-average record for its first year, down from the previous model's much-better-than-average. It was strong in most of the areas that really mattered.....and earned full-red circles in major-componennt areas like engine, transmission, and drive system, and yes .... electrical system, but was slightly weaker in a number of other areas.
I cannot post pictures or graphs, for two reasons, first, because CR partially restricts access to its data on-line, and second, my picture-scanning skills and equipment are next to zero. But I can share with you all what I read.
So.....what does this teach us? You can sometimes judge a car's potential reliability by its cover......but not always.
11-24-06, 10:25 AM
#2
Lexus Champion
Well, folks......the new CONSUMER REPORTS 2007 New-Car Preview, which is issued every year in December ( with the Annual New-Car Issue to follow in April ) is now on sale. I've spent part of the last several days going though its latest reliability data, ( CR, of course, is the best data in the buisness for auto reliability )....and being primarily a Lexus crowd, I'm sure that this is the data that most of you are more interested in than for any other make of car .
We've talked a lot about the new Lexus GS, ES, and IS, and about the new models vs. the old ones. I myself have reviewed three new Lexus models....the new, redesigned 2006 GS300 AWD, the 2007 ES350, and IS250 AWD ( I also have the LS460 on my schedule ). Without going into all the details of each redesign ( see my individual reviews for that ), I can sum up that I was, overall, quite pleased with the new GS, so-so about the new IS, and downright dissappointed with new ES. The new GS, I thought, was a superb machine; the IS given more interior flash and plushness but with cheaper-quality parts, and the ES just cheapened all the way through...and a stiffer ride to boot.
Well, some surprises with these three new products in the reliability department.......from what I consider to be the best source in the buisness.
This data, of course, is for one year only, of course, as they are all relatively new designs, and is not necessarily an indication of long-term reliability, but it does give us an insight into how well they are actually holding up in the hands of consumers. CR apparantly has enough input and enough data on these 3 vehicles to publish some figures.
First, the GS300 AWD. I was very impressed, on my review, with this car, inside and out....and, along with the new SH-AWD Acura RL, considered it one of the ten best cars I have ever driven. Its interior, despite a too-low-roof and an awkward place for the flip-down power mirror controls, was the very definition of impeccability....as was its superb paint job ( especially in Matador red ). Its road manners and refinement were equally superb.
Yet, in actual service, the car's repair record for the new 2006 model dropped substantially, from the much-better-than-average of the last model to average. The new car was strong in reliability in many areas but was notably weak in body integrity and electronics ( unusual for a Lexus product ).
Second, the ES350. This car, IMO, was a major disappointment this year compared to the old model, in the cheaper-quality parts inside, the removal of a lot of the beautiful wood trim, the stiffer ride from the lower-profile tires and stiffer chassis this year, and the noticeable dash squeaks and rattles on my test car. Yet the first-year repair record was a real surprise...actually better than the old car. Lexus, IMO, built a cheaper-looking and cheaper-feeling ES this , but apparantly a MORE reliable one. Its reliability was superb in every category, ( much better than average ) with solid red circles down the whole list......surprising, IMO, because based on my experience in the review and the dash rattles of my test car, I would have guessed it lacking in body integrity ( squeaks and rattles ).
Third, the IS250 RWD ( CR only had data for the RWD model ). I found the new IS250 somewhat flashier and more plush inside than the old car, but, like the ES, with some lower-quality hardware underneath that new-found flash. And the loss of the 55-series tire option was a major disapointment. But the new IS, in actual service, has held up pretty well.....but not quite as good as the old car. It earned a better-than-average record for its first year, down from the previous model's much-better-than-average. It was strong in most of the areas that really mattered.....and earned full-red circles in major-componennt areas like engine, transmission, and drive system, and yes .... electrical system, but was slightly weaker in a number of other areas.
I cannot post pictures or graphs, for two reasons, first, because CR partially restricts access to its data on-line, and second, my picture-scanning skills and equipment are next to zero. But I can share with you all what I read.
So.....what does this teach us? You can sometimes judge a car's potential reliability by its cover......but not always.
We've talked a lot about the new Lexus GS, ES, and IS, and about the new models vs. the old ones. I myself have reviewed three new Lexus models....the new, redesigned 2006 GS300 AWD, the 2007 ES350, and IS250 AWD ( I also have the LS460 on my schedule ). Without going into all the details of each redesign ( see my individual reviews for that ), I can sum up that I was, overall, quite pleased with the new GS, so-so about the new IS, and downright dissappointed with new ES. The new GS, I thought, was a superb machine; the IS given more interior flash and plushness but with cheaper-quality parts, and the ES just cheapened all the way through...and a stiffer ride to boot.
Well, some surprises with these three new products in the reliability department.......from what I consider to be the best source in the buisness.
This data, of course, is for one year only, of course, as they are all relatively new designs, and is not necessarily an indication of long-term reliability, but it does give us an insight into how well they are actually holding up in the hands of consumers. CR apparantly has enough input and enough data on these 3 vehicles to publish some figures.
First, the GS300 AWD. I was very impressed, on my review, with this car, inside and out....and, along with the new SH-AWD Acura RL, considered it one of the ten best cars I have ever driven. Its interior, despite a too-low-roof and an awkward place for the flip-down power mirror controls, was the very definition of impeccability....as was its superb paint job ( especially in Matador red
). Its road manners and refinement were equally superb. Yet, in actual service, the car's repair record for the new 2006 model dropped substantially, from the much-better-than-average of the last model to average. The new car was strong in reliability in many areas but was notably weak in body integrity and electronics ( unusual for a Lexus product ).
Second, the ES350. This car, IMO, was a major disappointment this year compared to the old model, in the cheaper-quality parts inside, the removal of a lot of the beautiful wood trim, the stiffer ride from the lower-profile tires and stiffer chassis this year, and the noticeable dash squeaks and rattles on my test car. Yet the first-year repair record was a real surprise...actually better than the old car. Lexus, IMO, built a cheaper-looking and cheaper-feeling ES this , but apparantly a MORE reliable one. Its reliability was superb in every category, ( much better than average ) with solid red circles down the whole list......surprising, IMO, because based on my experience in the review and the dash rattles of my test car, I would have guessed it lacking in body integrity ( squeaks and rattles ).
Third, the IS250 RWD ( CR only had data for the RWD model ). I found the new IS250 somewhat flashier and more plush inside than the old car, but, like the ES, with some lower-quality hardware underneath that new-found flash. And the loss of the 55-series tire option was a major disapointment. But the new IS, in actual service, has held up pretty well.....but not quite as good as the old car. It earned a better-than-average record for its first year, down from the previous model's much-better-than-average. It was strong in most of the areas that really mattered.....and earned full-red circles in major-componennt areas like engine, transmission, and drive system, and yes .... electrical system, but was slightly weaker in a number of other areas.
I cannot post pictures or graphs, for two reasons, first, because CR partially restricts access to its data on-line, and second, my picture-scanning skills and equipment are next to zero. But I can share with you all what I read.
So.....what does this teach us? You can sometimes judge a car's potential reliability by its cover......but not always.
I suggest you hop on over to the ES350 forum and see how off that report is on number of repairs.
When you deny any repair and leave people stuck with a problem that is not the same thing as a lessor number of repairs in a tally of repairs in the classic sense.
Diesel engine knocking tapping and wind noise are two routinely denied repairs because there is a blatant denial there is a problem.
Several owners have been told their slipping transmissions are learning instead of slipping, repairs denied.
These non-repairs cannot ethically be used to help in a count of lessor repair incidents on these cars.
11-24-06, 11:32 AM
#3
To those of us that think Lexus is slipping....well, I won't back off on that belief. Either the report is inaccurate or the respondents are. Could be a lot of the owners of these cars are former German car owners who are giddy their Lexus is better than their previous teuton machine. Therefore, they know not from where Lexus was.
Another reason is we enthusiasts are picky. The general public probably doesn't complain as much about queaks, rattles and other little problems.
Another reason could be the above average customer service. Your problem doesn't seem nearly as bad when they treat you well, give you a car to drive and have an overall pleasant service visit.
Another reason is we enthusiasts are picky. The general public probably doesn't complain as much about queaks, rattles and other little problems.
Another reason could be the above average customer service. Your problem doesn't seem nearly as bad when they treat you well, give you a car to drive and have an overall pleasant service visit.
11-24-06, 11:40 AM
#4
Lexus Champion
To those of us that think Lexus is slipping....well, I won't back off on that belief. Either the report is inaccurate or the respondents are. Could be a lot of the owners of these cars are former German car owners who are giddy their Lexus is better than their previous teuton machine. Therefore, they know not from where Lexus was.
Another reason is we enthusiasts are picky. The general public probably doesn't complain as much about queaks, rattles and other little problems.
Another reason could be the above average customer service. Your problem doesn't seem nearly as bad when they treat you well, give you a car to drive and have an overall pleasant service visit.
Another reason is we enthusiasts are picky. The general public probably doesn't complain as much about queaks, rattles and other little problems.
Another reason could be the above average customer service. Your problem doesn't seem nearly as bad when they treat you well, give you a car to drive and have an overall pleasant service visit.
If I read his post correctly the data is from service department reports and not from a broad base of customers. If a service department does not acknowledge a problem or if Lexus does not, it won't show up in the service repair data CR looked at and he is relying on.
11-24-06, 11:52 AM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
What it teaches us is that it is not worth the paper it's printed on where the ES350 is concerned.
I suggest you hop on over to the ES350 forum and see how off that report is on number of repairs.
Diesel engine knocking tapping and wind noise are two routinely denied repairs because there is a blatant denial there is a problem.
Several owners have been told their slipping transmissions are learning instead of slipping, repairs denied.
I suggest you hop on over to the ES350 forum and see how off that report is on number of repairs.
Diesel engine knocking tapping and wind noise are two routinely denied repairs because there is a blatant denial there is a problem.
Several owners have been told their slipping transmissions are learning instead of slipping, repairs denied.
That is news to me. Occasional slipping transmissions when accelerating from low speeds were a problem on some 2001-2003 ES models, ( and, on the 2001 IS300 like I had, from second-third gears ) but that problem, as far as I know, was taken care of several years ago.
11-24-06, 12:01 PM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
To those of us that think Lexus is slipping....well, I won't back off on that belief. Either the report is inaccurate or the respondents are. Could be a lot of the owners of these cars are former German car owners who are giddy their Lexus is better than their previous teuton machine. Therefore, they know not from where Lexus was.
Another reason is we enthusiasts are picky. The general public probably doesn't complain as much about queaks, rattles and other little problems.
Another reason could be the above average customer service. Your problem doesn't seem nearly as bad when they treat you well, give you a car to drive and have an overall pleasant service visit.
Another reason is we enthusiasts are picky. The general public probably doesn't complain as much about queaks, rattles and other little problems.
Another reason could be the above average customer service. Your problem doesn't seem nearly as bad when they treat you well, give you a car to drive and have an overall pleasant service visit.
I still stand, though, by my own opinion of the cars when I reviewed them ( which, as you can see, was mixed ), and by the data that Consumer Reports prints. CR sends out questionnaires with detailed questions on repair categories, vehicle satisfaction, and dealer service....and usually gets back over a million total responses each year. I have dealt with both them and J.D. Power...I have a far higher opinion of CR. When they print something, in most cases you can believe it, although sometimes their data can be a little out of date. But when it is, they are usually pretty quick to catch up.
11-24-06, 12:15 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
Since when does the American-market ES have a diesel engine? That is news to me.
Occasional slipping transmissions when accelerating from low speeds were a problem on some 2001-2003 ES models, ( and, on the 2001 IS300 like I had, from second-third gears ) but that problem, as far as I know, was taken care of several years ago.
That is news to me. Occasional slipping transmissions when accelerating from low speeds were a problem on some 2001-2003 ES models, ( and, on the 2001 IS300 like I had, from second-third gears ) but that problem, as far as I know, was taken care of several years ago.
As I said, hop on over to the ES350 forum, or if you prefer, simply don't represent yourself as knowledgeable on them.
There is a serious issue with the trans in many ES350s and there is an issue with both wind noise and diesel engine like knocking tapping with the vehicle.
Funny you were perplexed by any potential for an American market ES diesel, so were many of my friends who heard my car, only it isn't a diesel and same for many ES350 owners.
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11-24-06, 12:34 PM
#8
had some minor issues. The fact that Lexus has stood by their product
is why I am happy at this point and would purchase my next car from Lexus.
When I filled out my quality questionnaires about my GS I definitely did
not sugar coat anything. I let them know that Lexus has a lot of work
to do on their new models.
About the ES350, I completely agree with ES350Bob. It is way too new
for anyone to draw long term conclusions. They should've just said this
car has 6 months worth of reliability data or something to that effect.
My honest opinion is when we look at the next release of CR the people
with tranny problems will be so mad that its ratings will drop like a rock.
11-24-06, 12:46 PM
#9
Lexus Champion
I'm not at all surprised by any of this data... My 2006 GS has definitely
had some minor issues. The fact that Lexus has stood by their product
is why I am happy at this point and would purchase my next car from Lexus.
When I filled out my quality questionnaires about my GS I definitely did
not sugar coat anything. I let them know that Lexus has a lot of work
to do on their new models.
About the ES350, I completely agree with ES350Bob. It is way too new
for anyone to draw long term conclusions. They should've just said this
car has 6 months worth of reliability data or something to that effect.
My honest opinion is when we look at the next release of CR the people
with tranny problems will be so mad that its ratings will drop like a rock.
had some minor issues. The fact that Lexus has stood by their product
is why I am happy at this point and would purchase my next car from Lexus.
When I filled out my quality questionnaires about my GS I definitely did
not sugar coat anything. I let them know that Lexus has a lot of work
to do on their new models.
About the ES350, I completely agree with ES350Bob. It is way too new
for anyone to draw long term conclusions. They should've just said this
car has 6 months worth of reliability data or something to that effect.
My honest opinion is when we look at the next release of CR the people
with tranny problems will be so mad that its ratings will drop like a rock.
On any given day you could find people on ES350 Forum who intend to make equal issue of the diesel engine like noise and wind noise as they plan or others plan on doing as regards the transmission problem.
11-24-06, 01:56 PM
#10
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
11-24-06, 03:09 PM
#12
Lexus Champion
I'd guess the data is strictly prediction based. If it is on sale now, it went to print or final production phase at least 3 weeks ago, the ES was released late April, no way near enough time to offer anything scientific on a model released in late April.
11-24-06, 04:33 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
And I do read and post on the Lexus model forums. ...admittedly, not as much as on CAR CHAT. I had an IS300 myself....for five years....Why do you think I joined CL?
And why do you think I stayed with CL even though I now have a Subaru instead? I have a high opinion of this forum, too...just like I do Consumer Reports. I didn't open up this whole thread subject just for myself.......Lexus reliability does not affect me personally one bit. I posted this for you guys...because some of you were waiting for some info on the potential reliability of the new 2007 models. If you want to discuss it, fine. If not, you can ignore it.
But.....one of the reasons I did not buy a new ES or IS to replace my old one was that I was not as impressed with the new ones as with the older ones. And, like I said, I found CR's extremely high reliability rating of the new ES a little puzzling, given the problems I noticed on the one I reviewed. And, you apparantly agree.....you mention problems that CL members are having with theirs.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-24-06 at 04:50 PM.
11-24-06, 04:37 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I can't actually post it on-line, doug, But it appears to be updated. Last April, when the 2006 New-Car Issue was printed, all three cars were too new to have any significant raliability data. That is not the case now.
11-24-06, 04:51 PM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter