PsychDoc

...It ocurred to me that the Japanese car manufacturers have developed (nurtured?) certain demographic identifications for themselves. Whether these just evolved or were consciously developed by the respective manufacturers is unclear.
By comparison, American auto makers seem to be a great sea of sameness. I remember long ago when a Buick was a kind of upscale GM car and Chevy was their bread and butter marque. When Cadillac actually symbolized real status and prestige. Chrysler I recall always had a reputation for being a technological innovator and had the most advanced powerplants. Ford never really had much of an identity as far as I could tell.

But the Japanese really have carved out little niches for themselves.

Toyota - Great quality, bulletproof, run 200,000 miles without major problems, top quality materials used in interiors but BORING, BORING, BORING. None of their offerings have any "soul" and are about as exciting to drive as a garbage truck. Exterior styling invariably derivative and (you got it)....BORING! Clearly appeals to an older buyer.

Honda - A real innovator with the best engines in the business. Very efficient engines too in terms of HP per liter of displacement. A bit rough riding and quality control not quite up to Toyota standards. Interior materials are superb and definitely on a par with Toyota. Very nice handling characteristics. Loved by the "under 30" crowd either stock or as tuner cars which are then heavily customized and modified.

Nissan - Clearly a company that has reinvented itself. After being almost out of the game about ten years ago they have staged a HUGE comeback with their Murano, Altima and Maxima offerings. Nice 6 cylinder engines but very choppy (if powerful for their displacement) 4 cylinder engines. Nothing really cutting edge about their cars other for the fact that they are all priced to sell. Tremendous bang for the buck here. Mediocre interiors and lots of fit and finish gaffs but overall their cars are great buys.

Subaru - Quirky, all wheel drive is a huge draw in the snowbelt states. Quality of fit and finish is generally awful but their cras are priced well and (in the WRX) offer excellent power for the money. Tree huggers love them.

Mazda - Nice little pocket rockets. Increasingly favored by the Honda tuner crowd. This is clearly a company that needs a stronger identity as it is really lost in the shuffle. OK quality but really has nothing that distinguishes it from the competition.

OC 335d

Mazda little identity? They are from the racing heritage. Zoom Zoom is their slogan and it is the most known slogan out of any Japanese car manufacturer. They know they can't compete with Honda or Toyota so they formed their own niche with sporty cars. They don't have the best fit/finish or styling, but they are some of the more fun Japanese cars to drive in the sub $30,000 range.

SteVTEC

great post. I agree with pretty much everything, but there really isn't anything special about Honda's engines these days. "VTEC" is nothing but an empty image, because when you take an objective look at how their engines stack up compared to the competition you just see mediocrity everywhere.

- Valvetronic is the most advanced VVT system in the world, and this is a BMW developed technology, NOT Honda. Their new twin-turboed direct injected Inline-6 (N54) is also an outstanding engine design right at the cutting edge of technology. Floating around in the IP world somewhere is Rover's continuously variable valve duration technology, which is also more advanced than anything Honda has.

- VW/Audi is the leader in direct injected turbocharged and turbodiesel engines, not Honda. They're benefiting from years of experience with their 1.8T and TDI engines, are winning races with their TDI diesel race car, and have innovated all sorts of outstanding engine technologies. Honda is just getting started with these technologies and are nowhere close...

- Toyota's GR-series V-6 engines lead the segment both in terms of power AND efficiency. The 2GR-FSE with Dual VVT-i and dual injection one-ups even the latest offerings from Nissan, and it makes a joke out of Honda's Acura RL flagship. The RL 3.5L engine is still port injected, and the VVT setup is nothing different than what's in a 1994 Honda Civic!

- Even GM V8 engines are putting Honda V6's to shame. With their Displacement on Demand (now called Active Fuel Management) built into their compact and dirt cheap to build pushrod V8s, full-sized GM trucks and SUVs offer significantly more power, performance, and capability than the Honda Ridgeline while still getting the same or better fuel economy. Honda's i-VTEC variable displacement V-6 engines have limited flexibility in deployment, and are exceptionally costly and complex to produce in that they need all sorts of active vibration and noise cancellation devices due to uneven firing on 3-cylinders that the V-8 engines firing on 4 don't need. Both GM and Ford V-8 engines now have VVT cam-phasing technology on their engines as well. Ford makes good use of this on their SOHC V8 engines which gives them the same performance as their former DOHC V8's at lower cost. And GM builds the phasing right into their single block mounted cam and does the same thing. EVEN HONDA does not use cam-phasing technology on their SOHC VTEC engines, yet GM and Ford do on their V8's!!


Honda has been getting a free pass for years by the friendly auto media, their legions of exceptionally loyal owners, and it really shows in a lot of their products. Their PR department and affiliates have been doing everything in their power to maintain that free pass. So my point is that Honda is really an "IMAGE" company these days, but that there's little substance underneath.

LexFather

That post deserves a keg of beer to be sent to your address.

GM does have too many brands still. I still don't know why they got rid of Oldsmobile and kept some of the others around. We don't really need Pontiac. They should have blended Saturn with either Buick or Oldsmobile. Chevy is Chevy, they ain't going anywhere. I think GMC is redundant as well and the name GMC gives me the runs....

Ford actually OWNS Mazda. Amazingly, they keep their Mercury franchise which gets as much showroom traffic as people go to watch the Tennesse Titans play football.....Lincoln, they just are NOT trying hard enough and Caddy just DOMINATES the American luxury market out the two.

Funny but IMO, the American companies should just pull a damn Worldcomm and change the name of their companies. THe image of their brands between:
1. Previous quality
2. The blue light special employee sales
3. Not as good as the imports
4. God awful resale

means they just need to get a new name and see if people respond to that.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I agree with you, but still, Honda was the first and for the longest time had the most efficient "VTEC" engines. It is absolutely beyond me why Honda has dropped the ball lately.

Factor in the reliability, and this whole BMW thing becomes totally irrelevant.

Too bad VW/Audi can't get anything else to work right.


I agree, Toyota has five upped everyone with the 2GR-FSE, but they let the quality way down. Now, while bashing the 3.5 in the RL, lets not forget that it is still very competitive when compared to 2GR-FSE and the newest nissan 3.5 V6 engine, and despite being a 10+ year old design only has 15-20hp less than newly designed Toyota and Nissan engines. In fact everyone is going ape**** over the RL only having 290hp because everyone is used to and expects Honda to be the HP leader like they once were with their "S", "SI" and "Type R" models. Meanwhile, everyone is praising M35 and Avalon/Camry V6 for being so powerful, yet they have less HP than RL.

Also, lets not forget forget that the rest of the car matters as well. For instance I could certainly live with a car that has 290hp but has a door that looks like this:





But when a door looks like this, I couldn't live with the car if it has 306hp, or even 506hp.



Nobody cares about Ford and GM.


Toyota gets a lot of free pass too. The friendly auto media continues to praise Toyotas quality and reliability, meanwhile their new cars are built like mid 90ies nissans, and surpassed everyone else in quantity of recalls. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way trying to defend Honda here, I'm disappointed in both Honda and Toyota.

LexFather

The RL and GS both have nice doors. The RL IMO is more "average" the wood looks fake and while well built, seems ordinary.
The GS IMO, I am not huge on the burwood either but its clearly real and look how sculpted that door is, going with the L-finesse theme INSIDE and out. You will notice that the way the bumper is cut on the GS is the same design with the door. Little details like that is what has seperated Lexus from the other 2 Japanese companies since day one

As for quality, Honda is not perfect either. My god the tranny fiasco is ridiculous and Honda extended the warrenty to 100,000 miles on almost all their products. The American Made Acuras suffer the most compared to their Japanese made competiton.

All car companies have issues, let us not act like Honda is perfect.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, both companies have problems, but I absolutely hate the new GS interior. My 2gs is so much better.

Mr. Jones

You forgot i-vtec.

If Valvetronic is so great, don't you find it odd it is absent in the M5's V10?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Wow, some awesome posts here, particularly SteVTEC on engines, wow,

Psychdoc - yes the brands have images and reputations in the marketplace, based on a combination of marketing and the actual experience of owners and reviewers over years. It's not easy to create OR CHANGE an image and reputation.

GM for example, is desperately trying to change their reputation from CHEAP and uninspired to anything but. The interiors on many of their new vehicles are incomparably better than anything prior, and people are noticing.

Toyota is trying to hang on to its high reliability reputation while expanding its line-up, which is difficult, and of course they added Scion to add some 'not boring' vehicles for young buyers, which has succeeded VERY well. On the high end they will have to work even harder to separate the Lexus models from the Toyotas. Avalon vs. ES350 or even GS350?

SteVTEC - while Honda's engines may seem long in the tooth, they're still doing some amazing stuff with design, packaging, and the mechanical parts. Like the new Civic Si with front helical limited slip. Like the SH-AWD platform which has no equal as far as I know. And the packaging of the 4 door Civic is really incredible (roomy, decent looking, but still light).

Mercedes has an incredible line-up but poor software and electrical systems are eating them alive.

BMW's marketing is second to none, and their 3 and 5 series are still the best at what they do, but the ergonomics and their interior materials and design SUCK. Eventually this will hurt them.

A company like Porsche seems to be doing no wrong RIGHT NOW, but I think they're going to be in trouble as speed traps get MUCH more sophisticated and prevalent (think GPS ). How long before the government mandates that any car caught (even diagnosed even after having been driven) at going more than 100mph will result in a HUGE fine or even jail time? Then what for Porsche? Sure the drive is great but if you can only use it at the track their sales WILL suffer.

Ford has rediscovered car marketing and the Fusion has revitalized their car sales. The new 3.5L coming soon should help the competitiveness of the many models it will be offered in. While a number of their cars are bland, the features and driving experience is surprisingly pleasant (500, Freestyle, etc.). Their trucks are still EXTREMELY popular with contractors and will remain so because of familiarity, solid design, tons of aftermarket parts and add-ons, etc. The F-150 is the iPod of trucks.

Some brands have no hope in my opinion. Mitsubishi, Saab, Isuzu to name 3.

Mazda (basically Ford) has done a GREAT job of differentiating itself with zoom zoom and the line-up is REALLY solid and MUCH more exciting and fun than it's competitors.

No one's mentioned Chrysler, but I think they're doing OK and going to continue to do OK - from 2 main angles: convertibles (the Sebring convertible is one of the most popular on the planet due to rentals) and 'macho' vehicles (300C, Magnum, all the 'Hemi' and SRT stuff, Jeeps, and gigantic Dodge trucks and SUVs). It's worked and will continue to work.

SteVTEC

They weren't even the first automaker with a production VVT system. From Japan, Nissan can claim that with their NVCS cam-phasing system of 1986. They had this deployed across a lot of different engines before the first Honda VTEC engine hit the market in 1989 in Japan, and '90/91 in the NSX. Nissan just didn't plaster "NVCS" badges all over their cars like Honda did VTEC badges. Globally, Alfa Romeo had a VVT system deployed back in the early-70's which was mainly for emissions, and around that time GM and Mack Trucks had patents on VVT systems for trucks designed to improve fuel economy. Everybody "thinks" Honda invented variable valve timing but they didn't even do that. They did invent and come out with the first variable LIFT valve timing system but that's it. The market has not even followed that strategy though, because cam-phasing systems offer significantly more flexibility both as far as optimizing power across the whole rev band and not just at high RPM's, along with fuel efficiency and emissions optimizations as well. Almost every VVT system out today is a cam-phasing type which follows the original Nissan system, and the Alfa system. The systems used today are continuously variable whereas those early systems only adjusted to two or maybe three specific settings.


I have not heard of any issues on BMW's Valvetronic engines. The rest of the car itself sure, but a lot of the electronic gadgetry that has problems that people complain about is optional equipment that nobody is forcing you to buy.


And that's the price you pay for being one of the leading innovators on the market. Who else has a VR6 engine which I think is brilliant? Who else has DSG gearboxes? Who else has a race-winning and race-proven turbodiesel engine? Who else has leading direct injected turbocharged petrol engines like the 2.0 TFSI? Actually, GM does!! The Saturn Sky turbo. NO a lot of this stuff isn't perfect, but most brand spankin' new technologies aren't and will always have more problems than 2nd and 3rd generation systems. Just wait till Honda comes along after their competitors have had systems out for years which Honda has been taking notes on and reverse engineering for just as long, FINALLY comes out with their own system, and then starts their smack talking as if nobody else knows what they're doing except them. I think it's hilarious that Honda has been talking smack for years about how they don't "need" larger displacements or forced induction and now they have BOTH. The new MDX has a 3.7L (FX35 = 3.5, RX350 = 3.5, ML350 = 3.5, BMW = 3.0) and now they have the turbocharged RDX also, of which some program manager stated that the turbochared-4 gave "more intelligent performance" than a naturally aspirated V-6. LOL.


The M35 and Avy/Cam are not saddled with a power and performance sapping 400 lb AWD system which is needed due to Honda's failure to produce a RWD platform. Also, even a 280hp M35x is still faster than a 290hp RL. Why? Because Nissan/Toyota both focus on torque and a good powerband and does not obsess over compromising all of that just to deliver a high peak horsepower number which doesn't really matter other than for marketing in the grand scheme of things. This is why Hondas almost always perform relatively slowly given their horsepower ratings. LYING about their power ratings wasn't helping either.

LOL

Well I sat in an RL and didn't even notice the doors. What I noticed immediately was how cramped it was. This is what happens when you try to squeeze too much hardware into a Honda Accord chassis. After you've crammed a giant AWD system under it, it's taken up enough space that you have to skimp on passenger area and the car just felt claustrophobic. And the sorry thing is that despite what the PR spinsters will try to tell you, even SH-AWD cannot make up for 60+% of the weight including the entire engine being ahead of the front wheels. If Honda would just make a RWD car, the RL would have a lot more room, weigh a lot less, handle a lot better and have better weight distribution, and also go faster in a straight line while getting significantly better fuel mileage.


And this speaks volumes about the domestic's problems these days too. Their cars are better than ever, they're innovating great new technologies that make a real difference that one-up even their Japanese competitors, yet far too few people even notice or care. And since they're struggling financially, they don't have the marketing bucks to pay off the magazines like the import companies do. If GM could have made the "joint marketing commitment" to Motor Trend, there is no reason whatsoever that their new GMT900 SUVs could not have beat out the freakin Mercedes GL450 for SUV of the year. The GMT900's have more power, better fuel efficiency, more space, better hauling ability, are light years apart from their predecessors. And that's with PUSHROD OHV 2-valve V8 ENGINES! LOL


I'm completely bored and spent on Japanese vehicles period. Been there, done that, they're all the same to me now. Nissan's horsepower marketing doesn't sell me and their fuel efficiency is horrible, Lexus is boring and I don't fit in their L-finesse styled cars well, and Honda just keeps trying to sell more and more expensive Honda Accords. The Accord is an Accord, but so is the TSX (sporty accord), and so is the TL (touring accord), and so is the RL (grand poo bah bells n whistles AWD accord) :yawn:

Honda is neither an innovator nor a leader. They're a follower, and a timid one at that. Most of their vehicle strategy these days seems to be around just holding onto existing customers rather than trying to attract new ones. And much of their "VTEC" halo image is based on the NSX which is nearly 20 years old and they have yet to top that or even do anything significantly new. The $50k RL has 12 year old SOHC VTEC from a 1994 Honda Civic for chrissakes! My hat is off to Honda's marketing and PR guys to be able to hold on to an image this long with such mediocre and uninspiring offerings.

SteVTEC

Toyota beat Honda by two model years with their VVTL-i system (2000 Celica GT-S) which is functionally equivalent to Honda's i-VTEC (2002 Acura RSX-S).

I don't find it odd at all that Valvetronic is absent in the V10's, or even in the N54 turbocharged engine. The point of Valvetronic is to optimize the efficiency of the engine by getting rid of the throttle body and throttle plate which cause huge pumping losses at light loads and especially idle. There's an average 10% efficiency gain or so by throttling directly at the valvetrain which is why the BMW I-6 and V-8 engines with Valvetronic are so efficient. When you're just cruising along on the highway or sitting idle in traffic, a ton of pumping losses is incurred by the engine having to suck air past an almost completely closed throttle. Getting rid of that means free power and a huge efficiency gain. No throttle plate is another reason why diesel engines are so efficient too.

The turbocharged N54 doesn't have it because the direct injection allows for a high enough excess air ratio across much of the engine map that the efficiency gains from Valvetronic throttling would be minimal and thus the system isn't needed.

The V10 engines don't have it because the point is ***** to the wall performance and maximum response, not efficiency. The first generation Valvetronic systems only handled up to about 6000 rpm because they were more mechanically complex. The 2nd generation systems you see now in the N52 Inline-6 and V-8 engines is optimized a bit and good for up to 7000 rpm. The BMW M engines are spinning north of 8000 rpm these days, so Valvetronic need not apply. I believe you might tradeoff some throttle response and crispness also with Valvetronic which would be unacceptable in an M, but okay on a non-M as long as it can meet BMW's normal standards for that.

SteVTEC

The SRT4 had an LSD a few years ago. The Maxima had an HLSD in 2002, and the 1992 Maxima had a VLSD. The Prelude SH had some funky front LSD also. Nothing new here.

SH-AWD is great in theory so they get credit for that, but in Honda's practice it's just trying to correct for the fundamentally flawed physics of an extremely nose heavy FWD based car with the engine parked out in front of the front axle. You'll never see the full potential of a system like this in cars that Honda builds.

I thought the ergonomics and interior design of the 3 and 5 were OUTSTANDING in that BMW makes better use of space available than anybody else. I could not believe how much room I had in the back of a 5-series compared to the Lexus GS and even the Toyota Camry. It's practically a limo, and the footwells are so brilliantly designed that it's like getting a bonus 2-3 inches of legroom. I'm 6'3" and could sit in the back of a 5-series comfortably on a cross-country trip. The only other cars that I could say the same thing about that I sat in at the shows last year were the Toyota Avalon and the Ford Five Hundred. Even the 3-series had such a great interior design in terms of space utilization that I could *almost* get by with a 3.

Lexus brought the roof down so low at the rear of the GS that I cannot even get in or out of the car without practically squatting on the ground and then just sorta "falling" into it. Egress is equally ridiculous for me. I would throw out my back trying to get a kid and baby seat out of the back of that thing, but I see BMW 5ers with child seats in them all the time.

I had no complaints on BMW interior materials, don't care so much about cup holders, and can accept the skimpy storage space as a tradeoff given how superb the car was as described above.

marshmallo

I just got an ES350 loaner today and I thought about this
thread. A very nice car overall and a vast improvement
over the ES330, but it rates an absolute ZERO on the fun
department.

Toyota definitely has boring and practical down.

PsychDoc

I own an ES 350 and I sadly have to concur 100%.

Straight ahead driving is OK and they have done an excellent job with the suspension. But handling or directional transitions? Positively awful. You feel like you have to just hope the car doesn't roll over when you take a 30° turn at 40mph. The tires are way too skinny, the AWD rubber it comes shod with (Michelin MXV's) are decidedly mediocre (and overpriced) at best and there's just way too much body lean. Steering is loose and throttle response is totally unpredictable (thank you "drive by wire" system). You push down on the accelerator and you wait 2-3" for a response. While I haven't had the misfortune of needing immediate throttle response in an emergency, this could be a real problem if you need throttle response right now rather than 2 seconds from now. Straight ahead power is good but modulating that power is horrid. The interior screams out for more wood, particularly on the passenger side of the dash and the placement of the seat warmer controls is stupid beyond comprehension. You have to look down and behind you to even see them where they're tucked in at the front of the armrest. On a positive note, gas mileage is absolutely superb for a car with this kind of power.

I was going to buy a GS300 the summer before the new ES came out but I was horrified at the lack of interior room and the deadful hatchback appearance. That same summer I came very close to buying the BMW 530xi. I decided against it because I felt it was overpriced for what you were getting, it's interior totally turned me off and it didn't have a tape player (I listen to tapes of Howard Stern that I record). It was and continues to be the sweetest driving car I have ever driven, however. Everything just works so harmoniously together, it's hard to describe. For those who have not driven the BMW 5 series, I'd just recommend that you go out and drive one rather that read what others have to say. That will answer any questions you may have. As much as I don't like to admit it, there's a reason BMW is called "The Ultimate Driving Machine." It's not just hype. Steering is linear, throttle response is immediate and entirely proportional to the accelerator input and the brakes are reassuringly solid and predictable (the ES brakes are touchy and non linear). Now if they could just do something about their horribly drab interiors, put a decent touch screen nav system in and maybe cut down on the profit margin per vehicle and go for more volume....

I had also looked at and driven the Audi 6. Class leading interior but absolutely no power whatsoever off the line. Getting to 30mph seemed to take about a week or two. The mislabeled 3.2 liter engine is really a 3.1 and simply doesn't have the grunt to move along a car of this size and weight. They (like BMW) also need to join the 21st century and put in an up to date touch screen nav system. What's up with the Germans and their 10 year old nav designs? The car is fairly priced, however and but for the nav and engine underpowering is a real buy in the segment.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, believe or not I agree with most of what you said. Yep, Lexus is boring, theres not a signle car in the current line up that I truly love. The GS and IS are cheapened down to Nissans level, ES is cheaper than it ever was, RX is a damn minivan, GX is terrible. The LS is nice, but I can't really afford it, and honestly there are certain thing I like better about the previous LS. The two last great Lexii, the SC and LX, are on their way out, and based on what Lexus is doing with the rest of their models, their successors will be cheapened down. Another thing I hate about current generation Lexii, is that they all look the same. To a non enthusiast it will be hard to tell GS, IS, LS and ES apart. I always loved how every Lexus model had distinctive look, and hated how BMW/MB/Audi all looked the same.

Nissan? Yeah, they are boring, all of their cars are virtually the same. The G35 coupe is the only car in their line up that I happen to like, but I don't know if I could live with the el cheapo paint job.

Acura? Well, they don't really offer anything exciting, but at least they offer good values. And the MDX and RL are great vehicles. If they get their crap together, and drop a V8 into RL, my GS goes bye bye, and I'll never look back. But then pigs will start flying before Acura gets their crap together.

BMW? Bunch of overpriced crap. Driving dynamics blah blah blah, a 25k Accord V6 will make a pathetic joke of a 40k 325, and it has more room and better interior. Not to mention than these new Bangled BMWs are just plain fugly.

MB? I hate the direction they are going. Their new models are way too flashy for my taste, plagued with crappy electronics and confusing controls. Their lower end models are cheaply built and their driving dynamics are just as boring as Lexus. Gotta love the AMG models of course, but then they are too expensive.

Audi? I'll be honest, I don't know much about Audi's but I gotta say, they design hands down the most beautiful sedans. I drool every time I see an A8 on the road, and I just saw the new A6, what a beauty. But then all I hear is how unreliable they are.

So now what are you left with? Sure, I can go to the good ole Brits, and get myself a Land Rover or better yet an Aston Martin. Yeah, right, like I could afford them. Oh wait, I could afford a Jaguar X type, but then its nothing more than a Ford Contour, or some other ford. Or how about an S type with Taurus engine and tranny? No thanks.

On a serious note, when I was uber pissed at my GS, I was looking at all kinds of cars to replace it, and I really tried to love Jag XJ-R, but the interior and controls just ruin it all for me. It looks like the radio control and all switches and hardware came straight out of a Towncar.

So yeah, I'll probably replace my GS with a 05-06 LS430 ultra or SC430. But after that, I don't even know.