GS430 GUY

Mercedes vs. Consumer Reports

http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/auto...ion=2006112009


The luxury carmaker is not happy with recent rankings that appeared in the 2007 New Car Preview.

By Alex Taylor III, Fortune senior editor
November 20 2006: 9:11 AM EST

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- There is an old saying in the newspaper business that you shouldn't pick a fight with somebody who buys ink by the gallon.

That hasn't stopped Mercedes-Benz from taking a few swipes at Consumer Reports over some very damaging reviews of Mercedes vehicles.

First some background: For the 2007 edition of its New Car Preview, Consumer Reports surveyed its six million subscribers about what serious problems they had with the cars they own. Some 1.3 million responded and the results weren't good for Mercedes-Benz.

Here's a brief blow-by-blow: In a listing of the least reliable luxury cars, based on 2006 models, three of the six cars are Mercedes: the old S-class (prior to the recent redesign), the CLS and the E-class Sedan.

Same thing in sport cars. Mercedes hogged three of the seven slots for least reliable: the SL, the CLK and the V6 SLK.

Among mid-sized SUVs, the M-class, a quality disaster when it first came out, still ranks as the least reliable in its grouping.

Other luxury manufacturers turn up on the least reliable list, with BMWs, Jaguars and Cadillacs sprinkled throughout.

But what is striking about Mercedes' performance is its consistency. Of the 11 models reviewed by Consumers, none are recommended. Seven are left off of the list because of poor reliability; the remaining four are considered too new to predict.

Mercedes has the worst record of any automaker with that many models. For a brand that claims to be "engineered like no other car in the world," that is fairly frightening.

"They understand the problems and they are fixing some of them, but they have a long way to come," says David Champion, director of automotive testing at Consumers.

For its part, a spokesman for Mercedes says that the data in the Consumer Reports rankings "is totally out of sync with what we're seeing in the mainstream research as well as our own customer satisfaction and warranty data." He points to the good marks Mercedes gets for ride, handling, comfort, safety and performance.

He may be whistling into a windstorm, though. "Car buyers pay a lot of attention to CR's ratings," says industry consultant George Peterson. "They perceive them as unbiased."

Research by Peterson's own firm, AutoPacific, substantiates CR's findings. Its 2006 Ideal Vehicle Awards show Mercedes not only ranking ninth out of ten among luxury brands but also lower than the top ten mainstream brands like Hyundai (Charts) and Subaru.

Quality problems have been a big issue at Mercedes for several years and the company keeps insisting It has a handle on them. But issues keep cropping up.

The JD Power Initial quality study for 2006 models, which measures defects identified by customers during the first 90 days of ownership, put Mercedes at 25th out of a field of 37 brands. That was well behind leaders like Porsche, Toyota's (Charts) Lexus, Jaguar, GM's (Charts) Cadillac and Infiniti, though still two notches ahead of BMW.

The Mercedes spokesman blames that low ranking on two major complaints: brake dust from the high performance brakes and problems with the new seven speed transmission, that he says have been repaired.

He adds: "As you're aware, the IQS included a new survey methodology by JD Power which goes well beyond the actual quality of the vehicles and into subjective measurement (an important distinction) of how customers feel about such things as the design, look and operation of features, controls and equipment."

Mercedes still makes superb automobiles - striking in design, sophisticated in engineering, exhilarating in performance. It attracts hugely loyal buyers and its cars retain value better than most.

But being a leader means being constantly under attack by those behind you. Along with BMW and Lexus, Mercedes ranks in the top tier of luxury brands.

But until it can tame the devilish complexity of its cars into more reliable transportation, its position will remain precarious. And it doesn't help to be in denial about the problems you face - or to attack the messenger who delivers the bad news.

Threxx

Well I don't think calling themselves great engineers is a lie, per se, because engineering is about more than the durability of the car... just ask the Ferrari owner that has to pay the equivalent of a 90k mile Lexus service trip every 5k miles for his Ferrari... tell him his car is poorly engineered.

Mercedes has some build quality issues and some glitches in their electronics but that doesn't stop some people from looking past that and seeing the other qualities of them, especially as long as they're in warranty and dealer service is good.

I don't think CR is exactly the first to publish survey results showing Mercedes at the bottom or at least pretty darn far down toward the bottom.

Maybe Mercedes should focus on building more reliable vehicles that focusing on the people who report the results of their surveys (so long as they did so ethically and I don't understand why they wouldn't have?).

I understand why Mercedes might be a bit unreliable - I mean for one it's a european car and just in general european cars are not what most people think of when they think of great reliability. But they also have lots of gadgets and gizmos. Then again the LS460 has lots too but we haven't really had long enough to see if they executed it well or not. Knowing lexus they probably did but it's not been seen for sure yet - and you also have to consider long term reliability... is the LS460 a car where if one stupid feature breaks it causes other issues and annoyances that cause you to pay out the butt to repair a feature that you didn't really care that much about anyway?

I would definitely consider leasing a Mercedes - AMG especially, but never buy one or own one outside of warranty!

OC 335d

I think they should somehow distinguish the difference from "minor" issues vs. bigger issues that affects your car's performance, safety, etc.. I don't worry about the little things as much as getting stranded.

Threxx

I agree in theory... BUT
Do you really expect 1.6 million consumer reports readers to be able to tell you much about the problem they just had? I mean if they had a motor that was on the verge of blowing up at 10k miles and you asked them if it stranded them they would say no, even though the repair was major. But you can't ask people what the repair was because most people don't know or care to know enough about cars to answer thus your number of respondents would be reduced drastically and would also be reduced down to primarily people who are more car-savvy which could sway the results toward the brands people are biased toward (as car guys tend to be).

CR does at least categorize the areas of problems which is more than I've seen for JD Power and some others. CR will provide a year by year breakdown of problems in different categories of the cars.
Though I do wish they revealed their method of deriving their red/black circles a little more... I mean in a given context how much difference is there really between each circle? Is it a 10% range or a 200% range? Are any other factors used to adjust the results?

This gives me an idea for another thread...

SDLS430

My C32 AMG was a big piece of poo. Taught me to never buy one of those cars again. Some people don't care. My godfather buys a new SL500 every year any my aunt just bought a SL500 after a horrible reliabilty from her last CL. Luckly they have chachet.

Sam

SteVTEC

They already do that which is seen in the overall reliability verdicts for cars. Minor issues such as squeaks and rattles have little weighting whereas major issues such as engine - major and transmission have more weighting since it's potentailly more serious and also much more costly to fix.

SteVTEC

They'd still know becaue a major repair would take a long time to fix, and they'd probably have an idea of the cost to fix even if it was in warranty. The surveys ask to report on problems ONLY if it was a serious, and by serious they mean it either took a lot of money to fix, a lot of TIME to fix, or it might have left you stranded. Random dumb crap doesn't really count. But if your car has a zillion squeaks and rattles and it takes them a week to try to fix it and it's still not all fixed, then that would count.

This is totally untrue.

Since when can you just drop a car off at a dealership saying "there's something wrong with it. Fix it." and then leave without metioning any sort of symptoms or behavior? You can't, short of bringing the car in on a flat bed which is already dead and smoking. And I think most people who have to go to the dealership for unscheduled services along with the aggravation of having to deal with a malfunctioning car that you're paying big money for are going to be curious as to what the problem was exactly after it's back, and hopefully fixed. This is like saying that only medically savvy people will care about finding out what's wrong with them and understanding when they go to the doctor for an illness. No way. Almost EVERYBODY will care. It's pretty clearly laid out in the CR surveys as to what goes where, and what the criteria is as to whether something counts or not. On cars that I'm intimately familiar with, Consumer Reports seems to very precisely peg problems with great accuracy.

JD does this too, but only gives out the top level stats for free on the Internet. Manufacturers license the nitty gritty detail data, at great cost also. What I don't like about Consumer Reports is that everything is all based around an "average" which is a moving number as cars and model years change. Average today is LIGHT YEARS better than average 10 or 20 years ago, for example. I'd like to be able to get the raw data from time to time on CR's stuff.


It's pretty much all HERE:

- Consumer Reports’ car reliability FAQ
- How reliability ratings really work

...elsewhere on their site, or in their published Annual Auto Issues which I believe is usually the April issue.


Edit: vbulletin is not taking those big links above:

Just go here: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...lity/index.htm and then look for those two subjects.

Threxx

I can't speak for CR as I've never taken one of their surveys (at least not knowingly though I have taken some anonymous surveys about my cars before), but I am a participating member of the 'jd power panel' and have taken a couple car surveys and they pretty much leave it pretty wide open to where even the smaller issues get 'counted' seemingly equally. Though maybe I'm not remembering the details too well since the surveys for the cars are pretty long with lots of marketing type questions, too.

I have to admit it irks me when somebody regards their opinion or views as fact to the point they make black and white statements without just saying they disagree or in their viewpoint or opinion or whatever. But whatever makes you feel good.

I don't know about CR but JD Power doesn't ask what symptoms you experienced when you had a problem and I sure hope if CR does they don't try to guess what the problem was... so what would the point of the person being surveyed remembering the symptoms be? How often do you hear people giving good symptom descriptions anyway short of obvious things like something flat out not working or flame coming out of their hood.

So you're saying the average person would not only ask exactly what was wrong, but understand what they're told when they ask that question, retain that information until months or years later when they're surveyed, and then accurately recount the problem as well as how serious it was per the survey's qualifications of seriousness?
Granted if the motor is smoking and the dealer tells them it needs a new motor because a gasket blew I'll be most people will remember their car required a new or rebuilt motor or transmission... but get past the basic major and plain-site type things like that and I think it's not so clear to people.
Heck some things aren't even clear to people who DO understand cars - like for example my GS400 had a problem with flat out stalling/dying on me when in warm weather with the AC off and at idle... particularly with the wheel turned. They guessed maybe it was the charcoal filter, replaced that, and it helped some but really just reduced the frequency from often to occasionally.
Now even as a car savvy guy I can't tell you exactly what the problem was, if it was because of some major/necessary/expensive component of my motor going out or if it was just something cheap and simple causing the problem that was hard to determine but would never get worse or cause any more debilitating issues.
So I guess it'd be easy for me to classify the seriousness if it was based on the symptoms of occasionally stalling at idle with the A/C off... but classifying the seriousness of the problem itself? Even for me I was unsure and heard mixed reports and lots of unsure people on this forum as well. General consensus was just leave your A/C on but lots of people were worried if that would be enough at higher mileage to keep it from happening.

I have to say that I think my mom is the norm, not the exception when she is very familiar and has done a lot of research to learn what's causing her heart palpitations and what she can do to help it and reduce the risk of a heart attack and possible death. There are no lemon laws or warranties on our bodies and no loaner bodies for service work or replacement bodies in case of death. You get one body in life - most people tend to get to know their body pretty well because they don't get a new one every few years so they want it to last and they also get to know the quirks with their body over many many decades. I'd say there's a pretty big difference between my mom's knowledge of the heart palpatations she has been dealing with for the last 15 years and something that broke on her car last year so long as it didn't almost kill her too.
I'll also say she's the norm, not the exception, when she really doesn't understand how serious or not so serious of a matter it was when her 2005 Camry would sometimes would not engage in drive or reverse and the dealer told her that her TCU had to be reprogrammed and some other physical component in or around the transmission had to be replaced as well.
You notice I know the TCU had to be flashed because the day she got it back she was barely able to recount that something in the transmission had to be "reprogrammed" but she couldn't remember the name of what had to be replaced. It was in the shop for almost a week but as far as she told me that's because they didn't have the part on hand.
Now I bet I go back and ask her and her description would be even more vague. She could still describe the symptom and *in this case* probably recount that it had something to do with her transmission, but the seriousness of the failure or what specifically failed? No way she'd be able to tell you. And for that matter even if she asked the dealer and remembered what they said, 95% of the service managers I talk to at dealers will try to downplay the seriousness of any serious problem. Some will even lie and pretend they're waiting on parts to come in rather than "man a lot of stuff is screwed up and we can't figure it out"

Care? Yes maybe for the short term, but I know the majority of my friends and family are not car people and I know not too long after something gets fixed on their car it's pretty much a distant memory unless they're pissed off about it. Granted if they had to PAY for it they generally know more but under warranty many/most of them I know take a more relaxed 'whatever, just fix it' approach.

I think they focus more on the marketing information and personal information about the owners of their cars. If a manufacturer wants to know about the problems people are having in the first 90 days and 3 years of ownership I think all they have to do is look at their warranty logs all across the country.
Maybe they also pay for the right to use their awards and ratings in advertising, but that's not the same as the nitty gritty details on failures as you seem to be saying.

Interesting... I don't subscribe to their magazine but my parents do - still I don't go to their website because everything seems to cost money to view, even if you already subscribe to the magazine. I have looked around the auto issues and still not seen any decent substantial info on the methods for deriving stats, but maybe I just wasn't reading the fine print and such...
But I'm glad you posted it because reading their 17 categories only further confirms my opinion... their categories are pretty generic overall - you could fit some very major and very minor problems into the same of many of those categories. YET at the same time I can think of countless issues encountered by my friends and family over the years that would already be difficult for them to place in those categories... much less if the categories were any more complicated or segregated.

spwolf

I dont understand the discussion - is there ANY reliability survey, ANYWHERE in the WORLD that rates MB as quality cars? I very much doubt it.

German surveys dont rate MB well either.

And problem is that most of the issues are indeed big issues, like brakes, transmissions and engines...

RNM GS3

IMO Mercedes offers the BEST and Most Desireable lineup of cars top to bottom out of any luxury maker.

I doubt reliability concerns play a major factor when a person wants to get an MB, especially an AMG model or an S class. The E class has horrible reliability and is overpriced yet it outsells the GS 2 to 1 or more every month.

Most buyers of new luxury cars keep them less than 5 years anyway, so the warranty is there. Now if u are buying a used MB thats when there is a risk.

Honestly if i had $100k to burn on a car right now I would be in a CLS63 AMG, and really would care less what Consumer Reports has to say.

RX_330

I agree...other factors in comparing a car. What options do you get? What kind of new technology? I'm sure as hell that you can't get even half the technology in a Hyundai than you could in a Lexus or Mercedes.

Also compare safety. I'd rather buy a car designed to drive and crash on the autobahn, than one designed to drive on a perfect straight road and crash into steel barriers at 40 mph.

ic144

Honestly speaking, I don't think it's reasonable to find that many problems in a car that consumers paid so much for.

A $70,000 car? Starts having problems in a few years?

Major or minor problems on a 3 year old $70,000 is just unacceptable in my book.

Lexmex

I show my Consumer Reports from the U.S. to friends here in Mexico. I buy a ton of the auto issues and often give them to friends who work at dealers here (who I know by way of the track). Some are so happy like Acura, Honda and Toyota, while you guessed it Mercedes, BMW are in shock.

I still have friends who adhere to the idea the more the $$$, the better the quality. The concept of quality unfortunately does not even exist anywhere near what is does in the U.S.

OC 335d

I don't think it's fair to compare Acura, Honda, & Toyota reliability to Mercedes, BMW, etc. When you compare you compare like to like. Obviously a Mercedes will have more gadgetry than a Toyota Camry. If you are talking about the LS that is a different story, but the majority of the Toyota line-up is not as complex. I do agree with Mercedes quality going downhill for the last few years though.

RandalR

LOL! Yeah, so would I. For now, the GS350 will have to do.