what dou think of dealer installed protections and other add ons at the time of sale?
10-28-06, 06:23 AM
#1
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what dou think of dealer installed protections and other add ons at the time of sale?
Talking about paint sealant, undercoatind, anti-rust, LoJack, fabric protectant and the biggie extended service contracts.
I usually tell them no thanks.
Here's what I think, LoJack is a nice idea, but I'd rather if they charge something easy like $95 and then if you ever have to use it let them charge you $600 (or so). Not like they do now wher it's $695 up front and 99% of the time I won't ever have to use it.
Paint selant? Do I need this?
Anti-rust? aren't cars built with galvanized metal so they don't rust as much? And if there was a spray on that worked and was needed why don't the car manufacturers use it?
Extended service contract? Usually more than $1000. well IMO that's like pre-paying for your service and maybe you will never need it. Also (IMO) who is to say if they will honor the contract maybe they have tons of exclusions and loopholes to say it's not covered.
Also how do I know if I'm going to keep the car for 3 years or 8 years?
Don't get me started on window etching (biggest BS I ever heard).
Well what do you guys think? Are they worth spending for or are they BS?
I usually tell them no thanks.
Here's what I think, LoJack is a nice idea, but I'd rather if they charge something easy like $95 and then if you ever have to use it let them charge you $600 (or so). Not like they do now wher it's $695 up front and 99% of the time I won't ever have to use it.
Paint selant? Do I need this?
Anti-rust? aren't cars built with galvanized metal so they don't rust as much? And if there was a spray on that worked and was needed why don't the car manufacturers use it?
Extended service contract? Usually more than $1000. well IMO that's like pre-paying for your service and maybe you will never need it. Also (IMO) who is to say if they will honor the contract maybe they have tons of exclusions and loopholes to say it's not covered.
Also how do I know if I'm going to keep the car for 3 years or 8 years?
Don't get me started on window etching (biggest BS I ever heard).
Well what do you guys think? Are they worth spending for or are they BS?
10-28-06, 06:43 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Most of them, as you say, are a waste of money.......I usually advise the people I shop with to turn them down....with maybe a couple of exceptions.
Sometimes the lifetime oil change deal is worth considering, if you plan to keep the car a long time,especially if the dealership uses good oil and not some low-priced junk they buy up in bulk quantities. ( Most dealerships today use at least Quaker State or better quality...I like Castrol GTX, Valvoline, or Penzoil myself ). That way, you don't have to pay separately every time you get an oil change, will always get a factory oil filter, and there are no warranty questions involved if an oil-lubed part fails. I usually recommend a 1000-mile oil change after the break-in for NON-Honda / Acura products, though, and that is usually not part of the deal.
Sometimes, after a car gets high mileage, the rings and valves will have worn to the point where you need high-mileage oil, which has a little higher viscosity and helps to seal up clearances where it would normally run out or be burned, and most dealerships probably don't have that oil type...but you can by it in most auto-parts stores.
The Lo-Jack deal, though not cheap, is worth considering if you have a Camry or Accord or other frequently-stolen vehicle and live in a high-theft area like NYC or Los Angeles. Otherwise, save your money.
The extended warranty is usually a waste of money but is worth considering on vehicles that have a high beakdown rate like Land Rover products, Jaguars ( especially the X-Class ) and some German makes like VW, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi. But check carefully to see what is covered and how much it will cost and what the exclusions are. For instance, most of the trouble with German makes is in the electronics field. Extended waranties are also offered aftermarket.....I know GEICO offers one for its customers.
Honda, Ford, and GM, in a LONG overdue move, have this year FINALLY extended their antiquated 3/36 factory warranties to match the 5/60 powertrain warranties that most other Japanese companies offer, so this, of course, lessens the need for extended warranties for them to start with....and Hondas are quite reliable and usually don't need them. Of course, this was not just competition from the Japanese 5/60 drivetrain warranties, but also the Koreans with their 10 / 100 drivetrain / 5/60 bumper-to-bumper, and Suzuki with the 7 / 100 drivetrain warranties as well.
Don't let them sell you paint sealant, rai...it looks and feels nice at first, but all it is, for the most part, is a glorified coat of wax...which you can do yourself. A $4 bottle of liquid SCRATCH-OUT, in the long run, will do far more to keep your car looking like new than any dealer paint-sealant package.
http://www.kitwax.com/html/kitProducts.htm
Etching windows? Again, I agree...a waste of money. All a potential thief as to do is put a small sticker or decal over it and no one will even know the difference.
Expensive floor mats? Buy them youself at an auto parts store for one-third of what the dealer charges. They won't be custom-fitted lke the factory ones, but will work nearly as well....and by all means get rubber ones, not fabric. The fabric ones will drive you nuts trying to keep them clean, especially in bad weather.
Anti-rust treatments.....again, in most cases not needed. Most cars today, especially Subarus, which are purpose-designed for bad weather, are well-protected against rust, though it still pays to get that hose out and flush the whole underside THOROUGHLY after you have driven on salted roads. ( Use the hose at above-freezing temps, obviously). Make sure you get inside the wheel well lips too.....these are often missed. All Subarus are generally well-protected, but the Outback is even better....it has higher ground clearance for getting a hose under it and flushing, and also has vinyl and plastic cladding on the lower body and inside the wheel wells where rust often starts.
Most of the actual winter body, paint, and trim damage to cars nowadays does NOT come from the actual salt itself, like in the past ( though you still have to wash the salt off ) but from all of those f -- king abrasives and gravel that the highway crews dump WITH the salt.....( I've complained about that for years ). There is no dealer package that can totally keep that damage from happening, though bras and front deflectors help somewhat....but they still don't protect the windshield or the sides of the car.
Sometimes the lifetime oil change deal is worth considering, if you plan to keep the car a long time,especially if the dealership uses good oil and not some low-priced junk they buy up in bulk quantities. ( Most dealerships today use at least Quaker State or better quality...I like Castrol GTX, Valvoline, or Penzoil myself ). That way, you don't have to pay separately every time you get an oil change, will always get a factory oil filter, and there are no warranty questions involved if an oil-lubed part fails. I usually recommend a 1000-mile oil change after the break-in for NON-Honda / Acura products, though, and that is usually not part of the deal.
Sometimes, after a car gets high mileage, the rings and valves will have worn to the point where you need high-mileage oil, which has a little higher viscosity and helps to seal up clearances where it would normally run out or be burned, and most dealerships probably don't have that oil type...but you can by it in most auto-parts stores.
The Lo-Jack deal, though not cheap, is worth considering if you have a Camry or Accord or other frequently-stolen vehicle and live in a high-theft area like NYC or Los Angeles. Otherwise, save your money.
The extended warranty is usually a waste of money but is worth considering on vehicles that have a high beakdown rate like Land Rover products, Jaguars ( especially the X-Class ) and some German makes like VW, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi. But check carefully to see what is covered and how much it will cost and what the exclusions are. For instance, most of the trouble with German makes is in the electronics field. Extended waranties are also offered aftermarket.....I know GEICO offers one for its customers.
Honda, Ford, and GM, in a LONG overdue move, have this year FINALLY extended their antiquated 3/36 factory warranties to match the 5/60 powertrain warranties that most other Japanese companies offer, so this, of course, lessens the need for extended warranties for them to start with....and Hondas are quite reliable and usually don't need them. Of course, this was not just competition from the Japanese 5/60 drivetrain warranties, but also the Koreans with their 10 / 100 drivetrain / 5/60 bumper-to-bumper, and Suzuki with the 7 / 100 drivetrain warranties as well.
Don't let them sell you paint sealant, rai...it looks and feels nice at first, but all it is, for the most part, is a glorified coat of wax...which you can do yourself. A $4 bottle of liquid SCRATCH-OUT, in the long run, will do far more to keep your car looking like new than any dealer paint-sealant package.
http://www.kitwax.com/html/kitProducts.htm
Etching windows? Again, I agree...a waste of money. All a potential thief as to do is put a small sticker or decal over it and no one will even know the difference.
Expensive floor mats? Buy them youself at an auto parts store for one-third of what the dealer charges. They won't be custom-fitted lke the factory ones, but will work nearly as well....and by all means get rubber ones, not fabric. The fabric ones will drive you nuts trying to keep them clean, especially in bad weather.
Anti-rust treatments.....again, in most cases not needed. Most cars today, especially Subarus, which are purpose-designed for bad weather, are well-protected against rust, though it still pays to get that hose out and flush the whole underside THOROUGHLY after you have driven on salted roads. ( Use the hose at above-freezing temps, obviously). Make sure you get inside the wheel well lips too.....these are often missed. All Subarus are generally well-protected, but the Outback is even better....it has higher ground clearance for getting a hose under it and flushing, and also has vinyl and plastic cladding on the lower body and inside the wheel wells where rust often starts.
Most of the actual winter body, paint, and trim damage to cars nowadays does NOT come from the actual salt itself, like in the past ( though you still have to wash the salt off ) but from all of those f -- king abrasives and gravel that the highway crews dump WITH the salt.....( I've complained about that for years ). There is no dealer package that can totally keep that damage from happening, though bras and front deflectors help somewhat....but they still don't protect the windshield or the sides of the car.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-28-06 at 07:35 AM.
10-28-06, 07:22 AM
#3
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Etching the windows isn't about whether or not the car will be stolen. I get a discount on my insurance for it. I paid $28 for the etching, and I save $50 a year, every year. Seems like a no-brainer to me. I have exactly the same reasoning behind purchasing a factory alarm upgrade. I will not purchase an aftermarket alarm though - I'll never see the payoff.
Also, the fabric protectant comes with an insurance policy. For someone with children who picnic in the car, this could be a lifesaver. Imagine buying a lighter colored interior and having Mom spill orange soda all over a cashmere carpet while attempting to pass it to junior in the car seat properly installed on the back seat (OK, there are so many poor judgment calls on that one it isn't funny, but it saved paying for new carpet in a Landcruiser once.)
I've heard of the paint protectant coming with a similar insurance policy, but I have no idea how it could be effectively administered. I've never bought it myself.
I bought an extended warranty on my Supra after negotiating the price from $2100 down to $710. It was well worth it for a windshield, passenger's side airbag, and hatch struts that failed between the expiration of the factory warranty and 5 years/100k miles. I would not get an extended warranty from anyone other than the company selling the car though. I've heard absolute horror stories about denied claims from a number of "independent" warranty providers.
And I know this will sound like heresy, but it doesn't make any difference what quality of oil they use. Even the cheapest oils meet minimum factory specifications and will not cause premature failure except under the most severe conditions (1 - 2 mile commute). The engine won't be pretty on the inside, but it will run fine and still get reasonable economy as long as the owner takes the car in at the scheduled intervals. It's not how I treat my car, but from a pure cost effectiveness perspective, it works, and there are LOTS of fleet managers who swear by inexpensive oils.
Also, the fabric protectant comes with an insurance policy. For someone with children who picnic in the car, this could be a lifesaver. Imagine buying a lighter colored interior and having Mom spill orange soda all over a cashmere carpet while attempting to pass it to junior in the car seat properly installed on the back seat (OK, there are so many poor judgment calls on that one it isn't funny, but it saved paying for new carpet in a Landcruiser once.)
I've heard of the paint protectant coming with a similar insurance policy, but I have no idea how it could be effectively administered. I've never bought it myself.
I bought an extended warranty on my Supra after negotiating the price from $2100 down to $710. It was well worth it for a windshield, passenger's side airbag, and hatch struts that failed between the expiration of the factory warranty and 5 years/100k miles. I would not get an extended warranty from anyone other than the company selling the car though. I've heard absolute horror stories about denied claims from a number of "independent" warranty providers.
And I know this will sound like heresy, but it doesn't make any difference what quality of oil they use. Even the cheapest oils meet minimum factory specifications and will not cause premature failure except under the most severe conditions (1 - 2 mile commute). The engine won't be pretty on the inside, but it will run fine and still get reasonable economy as long as the owner takes the car in at the scheduled intervals. It's not how I treat my car, but from a pure cost effectiveness perspective, it works, and there are LOTS of fleet managers who swear by inexpensive oils.
10-28-06, 07:45 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
And I know this will sound like heresy, but it doesn't make any difference what quality of oil they use. Even the cheapest oils meet minimum factory specifications and will not cause premature failure except under the most severe conditions (1 - 2 mile commute). The engine won't be pretty on the inside, but it will run fine and still get reasonable economy as long as the owner takes the car in at the scheduled intervals. It's not how I treat my car, but from a pure cost effectiveness perspective, it works, and there are LOTS of fleet managers who swear by inexpensive oils.
Look at professional racing teams, for instance.....guys that literally make a living and their livelihood from how well their engines hold up under stress. You will note, from the logos on their racing cars, that the clear majority of them use a synthetic version of one of the brands that I have just mentioned. That is not done for no reason.....or just for advertising and sponorship.
And as far as warranty questions are involved.....if a factory rep has to authorize an engine rebuild or replacement under warranty ( or even if it is just out of warranty by a few months or a few thousand miles ), he or she is going to be more likely to do so, without giving you a hassle, if the maintenance record shows that you ( or the dealership ) used a good name-brand oil than a discount 7-11 special, even if that 7-11 brand has the same SAE and SM ratings that the good stuff does. And, believe me, a new engine, with the complexities of today's power plants, is REAL money....you can buy a LOT of oil for what it costs to replace one.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-28-06 at 07:56 AM.
10-28-06, 07:48 AM
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My dealer is trying to sell me a clear coat or 5-year paint sealant, what's up?
If your dealer is trying to sell you a "clear coat" it is likely s/he is either confused, or is trying to make some easy money. Dealerships do not sell “clear coats”, if they did they would be required to literally re-paint your entire car with layers of clear paint and then bake it to cure the paint. What they almost always mean when they sell you a “clear coat” is that they are selling you a paint sealant which will be applied over your clear coat. These are often called "5 year sealants" because they come with a 5 year warranty. These are the same products detailers apply when they seal or wax your car; however dealers often charge hundreds of dollars for them. These packages are usually accompanied by warranties, unfortunately most consumers don’t realize that these warranties require you to have the sealant re-applied every 6 months to a year, and prohibit you from polishing or waxing your car. Because consumers rarely, if ever, return to have the sealants re-applied, this is easy money for dealers.
The same applies to leather treatment. If you have cloth seats, scotch guard them yourself.
Regarding rust treatment, regardless of the galvanized steel any car can rust. If you plan on keeping the car for a long period I would suggest a yearly Krowne application (~$100). Remember that there are areas of the car (like the electrical harness) that are often not protected by steel, and can corrode. If you're only keeping the car for the warranty period I woulnd't sweat it, but as I mentioned long term it will probably pay for itself.
Cheers.
If your dealer is trying to sell you a "clear coat" it is likely s/he is either confused, or is trying to make some easy money. Dealerships do not sell “clear coats”, if they did they would be required to literally re-paint your entire car with layers of clear paint and then bake it to cure the paint. What they almost always mean when they sell you a “clear coat” is that they are selling you a paint sealant which will be applied over your clear coat. These are often called "5 year sealants" because they come with a 5 year warranty. These are the same products detailers apply when they seal or wax your car; however dealers often charge hundreds of dollars for them. These packages are usually accompanied by warranties, unfortunately most consumers don’t realize that these warranties require you to have the sealant re-applied every 6 months to a year, and prohibit you from polishing or waxing your car. Because consumers rarely, if ever, return to have the sealants re-applied, this is easy money for dealers.
The same applies to leather treatment. If you have cloth seats, scotch guard them yourself.
Regarding rust treatment, regardless of the galvanized steel any car can rust. If you plan on keeping the car for a long period I would suggest a yearly Krowne application (~$100). Remember that there are areas of the car (like the electrical harness) that are often not protected by steel, and can corrode. If you're only keeping the car for the warranty period I woulnd't sweat it, but as I mentioned long term it will probably pay for itself.
Cheers.
10-28-06, 07:52 AM
#6
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Rust proofing all depends on where you live. I really don't need it in Sacramento.
mmarshall - I hear you about oil quality, and I've been a synthetic fanatic for about 17 years; run it in all my stuff. At the same time, my dad has been doing this kind of stuff a whole lot longer and he keeps telling me I'm wasting money on synthetic for a street vehicle. He's been running conventional oils in his personal vehicles since the 50's, and has some very high mileage units. That's what I mean. Practical experience over the long term says I'm probably spending more than I have to (but I'll continue to do it because it's cheap peace of mind on my part.)
mmarshall - I hear you about oil quality, and I've been a synthetic fanatic for about 17 years; run it in all my stuff. At the same time, my dad has been doing this kind of stuff a whole lot longer and he keeps telling me I'm wasting money on synthetic for a street vehicle. He's been running conventional oils in his personal vehicles since the 50's, and has some very high mileage units. That's what I mean. Practical experience over the long term says I'm probably spending more than I have to (but I'll continue to do it because it's cheap peace of mind on my part.)
10-28-06, 07:59 AM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
Rust proofing all depends on where you live. I really don't need it in Sacramento.
mmarshall - I hear you about oil quality, and I've been a synthetic fanatic for about 17 years; run it in all my stuff. At the same time, my dad has been doing this kind of stuff a whole lot longer and he keeps telling me I'm wasting money on synthetic for a street vehicle. He's been running conventional oils in his personal vehicles since the 50's, and has some very high mileage units. That's what I mean. Practical experience over the long term says I'm probably spending more than I have to (but I'll continue to do it because it's cheap peace of mind on my part.)
mmarshall - I hear you about oil quality, and I've been a synthetic fanatic for about 17 years; run it in all my stuff. At the same time, my dad has been doing this kind of stuff a whole lot longer and he keeps telling me I'm wasting money on synthetic for a street vehicle. He's been running conventional oils in his personal vehicles since the 50's, and has some very high mileage units. That's what I mean. Practical experience over the long term says I'm probably spending more than I have to (but I'll continue to do it because it's cheap peace of mind on my part.)
In most cases a GOOD petroleum oil and regular changes are all you need.
And rust-proofing, today, is usually a waste of money no matter where you live, although CA's climate is obviously much less likely to cause rust than in the Northeast or Great Lakes areas where you get a lot of snow.
In fact, sometimes the factory will NOT honor their OWN rust warranty IF an aftermarket treatment is applied, becsuse usually those aftermarket treatments involve drilling holes through the factory sheet metal to spray the treatment inside the body panels, and then plugging the holes back up. If the plugging is not done right, or if the plugs come out with time, the result is obvious.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-28-06 at 08:06 AM.
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10-28-06, 03:57 PM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
Small lines and marks are engraved in the glass that tie those windows specifically to that vehicle, supposedly making it more difficult for thieves to steal the car and sell the parts over-the counter or to unscrupulous body and repair shops. It is also supposed to be a back-up car ID system for police if thieves try and blank out the VIN...a growing practice. But.....as I indicated in my earlier posts though, I'm not convinced of any real effectiveness of etching in actually lowering the chances of vehicle theft.
10-28-06, 04:16 PM
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I resits all of these add-ons, just wanted to make sure I was not skipping something essential.
They were giving me all this pressure, like asking if I eat in the car etc. I told them I just traded in an 8-year old car that was parked outside for 8 years in the elements, I eat in it etc. and it still looks OK.
My other point is I'm already spending $21K, the last thing is another $2K on the loan if I take all this extra stuff.
They were giving me all this pressure, like asking if I eat in the car etc. I told them I just traded in an 8-year old car that was parked outside for 8 years in the elements, I eat in it etc. and it still looks OK.
My other point is I'm already spending $21K, the last thing is another $2K on the loan if I take all this extra stuff.
10-28-06, 04:46 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
I resits all of these add-ons, just wanted to make sure I was not skipping something essential.
They were giving me all this pressure, like asking if I eat in the car etc. I told them I just traded in an 8-year old car that was parked outside for 8 years in the elements, I eat in it etc. and it still looks OK.
My other point is I'm already spending $21K, the last thing is another $2K on the loan if I take all this extra stuff.
They were giving me all this pressure, like asking if I eat in the car etc. I told them I just traded in an 8-year old car that was parked outside for 8 years in the elements, I eat in it etc. and it still looks OK.
My other point is I'm already spending $21K, the last thing is another $2K on the loan if I take all this extra stuff.
....from what you've told us, you've done well.
These people at dealerships are carefully trained in how to pressure customers into signing up for these things.....they are known as " packs " and in most cases are just extra dealer profit without much to show for it. A few of them, though, in some cases, ARE worth considering......I have discussed that in my earlier posts here.
Sometimes people at dealerships who know me, when I shop with would-be car buyers or refer them, don't even try and sell some of these things because they already know that I've talked some people out of them and that, with us, it's just a waste of time. If a person asks my advice ( as many do ) I tell them beforehand what aftermarket features I think it would be wise for them to consider, what to turn down, and just let them take it from there....it's their money.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-28-06 at 04:55 PM.
10-28-06, 05:40 PM
#12
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One thing I did get that may be worth while is a 'value pricing' which is about $300.
It gives me free oil change (every other) and 10% off all parts and labor for life and free loaner car. This is plus/minus, but may be OK if I keep the car a while.
It gives me free oil change (every other) and 10% off all parts and labor for life and free loaner car. This is plus/minus, but may be OK if I keep the car a while.
Last edited by rai; 10-28-06 at 05:46 PM.
10-29-06, 03:23 AM
#13
All rip offs. I was dooped into purchasing the Toyota Extra care Gold package for an additional 4k for my Rav4 back in 2002. The salesperson told me "How would you like to not pay for service ever again & have an additional 3 years of warranty coverage" Complete BS..
Come to discover that you get a coupon book that only covers oil changes, rotation and balancing, and, fluid replenish for 3 yrs. For the big services like 15k, 30k, 60k, you get 15% off. Thankfully, the service guys still honor my coupons which expired last year. They are hearing too many complaints from many customers regarding the Gold Care plan, so they just honor them even though they may be expired. I only have 29k on Rav4, so this plan was just usless since I don't accumalate a lot of miles. I have yet to take advantage of the extended warranty as the Rav4 had no mechanical problems to date. DON'T BUY THESE DEALER ADD ONS. Rip off city
Come to discover that you get a coupon book that only covers oil changes, rotation and balancing, and, fluid replenish for 3 yrs. For the big services like 15k, 30k, 60k, you get 15% off. Thankfully, the service guys still honor my coupons which expired last year. They are hearing too many complaints from many customers regarding the Gold Care plan, so they just honor them even though they may be expired. I only have 29k on Rav4, so this plan was just usless since I don't accumalate a lot of miles. I have yet to take advantage of the extended warranty as the Rav4 had no mechanical problems to date. DON'T BUY THESE DEALER ADD ONS. Rip off city
10-29-06, 09:20 AM
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I understand why the dealers do this, they make alot of money and people sit there and listen to the crap. After negotiating the price with the salesman or salesmanager I will tell them point blank, I am not interested in any paint protection, extended warranties, or maintenance programs so don't even ask and tell your finance guy to not ask either. I'll still get the occasional comment from the finance guy but it will be quick and subtle like "I understand you're not interested in the extended warranty or paint protection so we'll skip this paperwork" they always have to get one last crack at it 
10-29-06, 11:19 AM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
If you keep the car for a long time, it sounds like this was not a bad deal. Dealerships often change hands with new owners and managers, but in general they honor the deals sold by their former owners.
$300 today doesn't buy a whole lot of service. Even if you pay for every other oil change and get one free, it's still not a bad deal....and you get free loaners and a lifetime parts discount. ( But you are, of course, stuck at that dealership for service )
I agree with DASHOCKER that most of the aftermarket packs are ripoffs, but as I said earlier, some of them are not. The one you signed up for doesn't sound bad at all to me.