M5 outsmarts itself - Clunky high-tech shifter mars BMW's smooth performance . . .
05-05-06, 08:01 PM
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M5 outsmarts itself - Clunky high-tech shifter mars BMW's smooth performance . . .
May 4, 2006
BY MARK PHELAN
DETROIT FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
If you're on the cutting edge of technology, sometimes you're going to bleed.
Meet the 2006 BMW M5, a car in need of a tourniquet.
The new performance sedan is blessed with looks, comfort and speed, but cursed with a new-fangled technology that sucks all the joy from driving the marvelous machine.
I'm poleaxed by the fact that BMW managed to build a 500-horsepower sedan that's anything less than intoxicating to drive.
This is BMW, after all. They really do build the ultimate driving machines.
But not this time. The M5's clunky seven-speed transmission makes the car downright annoying.
One of BMW's greatest strengths is an absolute confidence in the rightness of its engineering and design philosophy. That conviction allowed the Bavarian trendsetter to stand firm when critics around the world mocked its new exterior styling a few years ago.
BMW was right. Automakers from Ford to Mercedes-Benz to Toyota have brazenly cribbed ideas born in BMW's design studios. Cars ranging from the $18,270 Toyota Camry to the $140,000 Mercedes-Benz S600 owe their looks to BMW's willingness to go out on a limb.
This time, though, the limb broke.
The M5 is the maximum-performance version of BMW's fine 5-series midsize sport sedan. In addition to its 500-horsepower 5.0-liter V10 engine and seven-speed sequential manual gearbox (SMG), it boasts a performance-tuned locking rear differential, six air bags, and a quiet, comfortable interior.
Prices for the M5 start at $81,200, excluding designation charges and a $3,700 gas-guzzler tax. I tested a very well equipped M5 that stickered at $94,270, excluding destination charges but including the gas-guzzler tax.
The M5 is the most powerful and expensive car in a new class of midsize luxury sedans that includes the Cadillac STS-V, Jaguar S-type R, Maserati Quattroporte and Mercedes-Benz CLS 55 AMG. Those cars all have between 396 and 469 horsepower and sell for $63,330 to $86,600.
The 425-horsepower SRT8 models of the Chrysler 300C, Dodge Charger and Dodge Magnum have the horsepower to join the club, but their less luxurious trappings and prices of $35,320 to $39,920 put them in a different, but very appealing, class.
None of the competition can match the M5's power or BMW's miraculous combination of suture-tight handling and a comfortable ride.
They all have one thing the M5 lacks, though: a smooth and unobtrusive transmission.
The M5 has that balky sequential manual gearbox, a technology that's less leading edge than bleeding edge. The SMG has no clutch pedal; all you do to shift gears is tap the shift lever fore or aft. There's also a mode where electronic controls do the shifting.
The most sophisticated race cars in the world use SMGs for lighting-quick shifts.
The mechanism in the M5's transmission, however, is a poor compromise that offers neither the smoothness of a good automatic nor the crisp, controlled feeling of a manual.
Despite the choice of either automatic or do-it-yourself shifting and a total of 11 different computer controlled shift programs, the shifts through the first three gears were consistently slow and jarring. In automatic mode, the car lagged noticeably when one gear disengaged and lurched forward when the next gear took hold.
Effectively, SMG harnesses immensely sophisticated electronic controls and actuators to duplicate the sensation of a manual transmission in the hands of an inept driver.
Call me crazy, but I don't think that's what BMW was going for, or what its buyers pay 90-grand to experience.
BMW will offer the M5 with a conventional six-speed manual transmission this fall.
I'm counting the days before I get to test it because the M5 is in most respects is a superb car.
The V10 is smooth and tractable, whether in its 400-horsepower economy mode or with the power button engaged to round up all 500 horses. Acceleration is excellent with the M5 reaching 60 m.p.h. in 4.5 seconds and providing more plenty of power for passing and very fast cruising.
The suspension does an extraordinary job of combining excellent grip and cornering ability with the ability to absorb bumps for a smooth comfortable ride. The steering is precise and responsive. Both the steering ratio and level of assist vary according to speed and to match the three settings for the all-aluminum, electronically adjustable suspension.
The M5 comes with standard 19-inch high-performance tires, which provide excellent grip without the buzzy ride and road noise that often accompanies such aggressive rubber.
The big disc brakes are drilled to keep them from overheating in rigorous driving. They also have aluminum components to reduce weight and heat buildup.
The brakes' stopping power and pedal feel are excellent.
The M5's interior is luxurious and comfortable. Front-seat room and headroom are excellent, and rear legroom is acceptable.
A heads-up display of speed, engine r.p.m. and gear is a good feature. It's a $1,000 option, however, and its usefulness suffers because you can't adjust the display to keep it visible from many of the positions the widely adjustable driver's seat can accommodate.
The gauges in the dashboard, however, are clear and easy to read.
The higher-level front seats feature perforated leather, heating and ventilation, and seatback bolsters that adjust to hold the driver in place in turns.
Frankly, I think that last feature is just showing off. As fast as the M5 is, this is not a jet fighter banking into a multi-G turn. However, "dynamic seats," as they're sometimes called, are becoming increasingly common in powerful high-end luxury cars, and the M5's work as well as any.
The memory function for seat and mirror position does not recall driver preferences such as suspension stiffness and gearshift speed.
It should. Having the car revert to the factory defaults for those functions every time it starts is a bit like having the seats always return to the position chosen by the guy who drove it off the assembly line.
The driver can program a single memory for one combination of transmission, power, suspension and stability control settings with the steering wheel-mounted "M" button. A car this sophisticated and expensive should be able to recite Shakespeare, let alone remember two or three drivers' preferences.
The interior of the M5 I tested had lovely oyster-shell colored leather upholstery, warm walnut wood trim black suede lining the ceiling and uprights around the windows.
However, iDrive, the console-mounted dial that replaces the dozens of buttons it would take to run the M5's audio, climate, navigation and other systems, remains overcomplicated. BMW has improved iDrive significantly since it debuted several years ago, but new cars like the Mercedes-Benz S-class and Audi A8 offer more user-friendly systems.
Despite its shortcomings, though, iDrive is peripheral to the experience of driving the car. You can't ignore it, but you can minimize your interactions with the system.
The SMG is at the heart of every move the M5 makes, however. The M5 should be an unalloyed joy, but the gearbox makes driving it a series of small irritations that grow larger with repetition.
BMW can't get that six-speed manual on the market fast enough.
source : freep.com
BY MARK PHELAN
DETROIT FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
If you're on the cutting edge of technology, sometimes you're going to bleed.
Meet the 2006 BMW M5, a car in need of a tourniquet.
The new performance sedan is blessed with looks, comfort and speed, but cursed with a new-fangled technology that sucks all the joy from driving the marvelous machine.
I'm poleaxed by the fact that BMW managed to build a 500-horsepower sedan that's anything less than intoxicating to drive.
This is BMW, after all. They really do build the ultimate driving machines.
But not this time. The M5's clunky seven-speed transmission makes the car downright annoying.
One of BMW's greatest strengths is an absolute confidence in the rightness of its engineering and design philosophy. That conviction allowed the Bavarian trendsetter to stand firm when critics around the world mocked its new exterior styling a few years ago.
BMW was right. Automakers from Ford to Mercedes-Benz to Toyota have brazenly cribbed ideas born in BMW's design studios. Cars ranging from the $18,270 Toyota Camry to the $140,000 Mercedes-Benz S600 owe their looks to BMW's willingness to go out on a limb.
This time, though, the limb broke.
The M5 is the maximum-performance version of BMW's fine 5-series midsize sport sedan. In addition to its 500-horsepower 5.0-liter V10 engine and seven-speed sequential manual gearbox (SMG), it boasts a performance-tuned locking rear differential, six air bags, and a quiet, comfortable interior.
Prices for the M5 start at $81,200, excluding designation charges and a $3,700 gas-guzzler tax. I tested a very well equipped M5 that stickered at $94,270, excluding destination charges but including the gas-guzzler tax.
The M5 is the most powerful and expensive car in a new class of midsize luxury sedans that includes the Cadillac STS-V, Jaguar S-type R, Maserati Quattroporte and Mercedes-Benz CLS 55 AMG. Those cars all have between 396 and 469 horsepower and sell for $63,330 to $86,600.
The 425-horsepower SRT8 models of the Chrysler 300C, Dodge Charger and Dodge Magnum have the horsepower to join the club, but their less luxurious trappings and prices of $35,320 to $39,920 put them in a different, but very appealing, class.
None of the competition can match the M5's power or BMW's miraculous combination of suture-tight handling and a comfortable ride.
They all have one thing the M5 lacks, though: a smooth and unobtrusive transmission.
The M5 has that balky sequential manual gearbox, a technology that's less leading edge than bleeding edge. The SMG has no clutch pedal; all you do to shift gears is tap the shift lever fore or aft. There's also a mode where electronic controls do the shifting.
The most sophisticated race cars in the world use SMGs for lighting-quick shifts.
The mechanism in the M5's transmission, however, is a poor compromise that offers neither the smoothness of a good automatic nor the crisp, controlled feeling of a manual.
Despite the choice of either automatic or do-it-yourself shifting and a total of 11 different computer controlled shift programs, the shifts through the first three gears were consistently slow and jarring. In automatic mode, the car lagged noticeably when one gear disengaged and lurched forward when the next gear took hold.
Effectively, SMG harnesses immensely sophisticated electronic controls and actuators to duplicate the sensation of a manual transmission in the hands of an inept driver.
Call me crazy, but I don't think that's what BMW was going for, or what its buyers pay 90-grand to experience.
BMW will offer the M5 with a conventional six-speed manual transmission this fall.
I'm counting the days before I get to test it because the M5 is in most respects is a superb car.
The V10 is smooth and tractable, whether in its 400-horsepower economy mode or with the power button engaged to round up all 500 horses. Acceleration is excellent with the M5 reaching 60 m.p.h. in 4.5 seconds and providing more plenty of power for passing and very fast cruising.
The suspension does an extraordinary job of combining excellent grip and cornering ability with the ability to absorb bumps for a smooth comfortable ride. The steering is precise and responsive. Both the steering ratio and level of assist vary according to speed and to match the three settings for the all-aluminum, electronically adjustable suspension.
The M5 comes with standard 19-inch high-performance tires, which provide excellent grip without the buzzy ride and road noise that often accompanies such aggressive rubber.
The big disc brakes are drilled to keep them from overheating in rigorous driving. They also have aluminum components to reduce weight and heat buildup.
The brakes' stopping power and pedal feel are excellent.
The M5's interior is luxurious and comfortable. Front-seat room and headroom are excellent, and rear legroom is acceptable.
A heads-up display of speed, engine r.p.m. and gear is a good feature. It's a $1,000 option, however, and its usefulness suffers because you can't adjust the display to keep it visible from many of the positions the widely adjustable driver's seat can accommodate.
The gauges in the dashboard, however, are clear and easy to read.
The higher-level front seats feature perforated leather, heating and ventilation, and seatback bolsters that adjust to hold the driver in place in turns.
Frankly, I think that last feature is just showing off. As fast as the M5 is, this is not a jet fighter banking into a multi-G turn. However, "dynamic seats," as they're sometimes called, are becoming increasingly common in powerful high-end luxury cars, and the M5's work as well as any.
The memory function for seat and mirror position does not recall driver preferences such as suspension stiffness and gearshift speed.
It should. Having the car revert to the factory defaults for those functions every time it starts is a bit like having the seats always return to the position chosen by the guy who drove it off the assembly line.
The driver can program a single memory for one combination of transmission, power, suspension and stability control settings with the steering wheel-mounted "M" button. A car this sophisticated and expensive should be able to recite Shakespeare, let alone remember two or three drivers' preferences.
The interior of the M5 I tested had lovely oyster-shell colored leather upholstery, warm walnut wood trim black suede lining the ceiling and uprights around the windows.
However, iDrive, the console-mounted dial that replaces the dozens of buttons it would take to run the M5's audio, climate, navigation and other systems, remains overcomplicated. BMW has improved iDrive significantly since it debuted several years ago, but new cars like the Mercedes-Benz S-class and Audi A8 offer more user-friendly systems.
Despite its shortcomings, though, iDrive is peripheral to the experience of driving the car. You can't ignore it, but you can minimize your interactions with the system.
The SMG is at the heart of every move the M5 makes, however. The M5 should be an unalloyed joy, but the gearbox makes driving it a series of small irritations that grow larger with repetition.
BMW can't get that six-speed manual on the market fast enough.
source : freep.com
Last edited by Gojirra99; 05-05-06 at 08:04 PM.
05-05-06, 08:04 PM
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Interesting article, but I've seen some of the most biased drivel come out of that newspaper over the past few years that I pay it little attention. Home town paper sells to stoke the local egos.
05-05-06, 08:49 PM
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half of the article wasnt talking about the problem
first half was just dribbling on and even talking about how 300C is appealing
lol
what a laughable waste of time
this article makes some good points but still not technical enough for my engineering background
and i still think SMG is the way of the future and does perform pretty well when u have selected the right mode for the right driving condition
that is if u can get everything setup and start driving before the sun goes down...
first half was just dribbling on and even talking about how 300C is appealing
lol
what a laughable waste of time
this article makes some good points but still not technical enough for my engineering background
and i still think SMG is the way of the future and does perform pretty well when u have selected the right mode for the right driving condition
that is if u can get everything setup and start driving before the sun goes down...
05-05-06, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveGS4
Interesting article, but I've seen some of the most biased drivel come out of that newspaper over the past few years that I pay it little attention. Home town paper sells to stoke the local egos.
I like to read the Detroit papers because they're a nice counterweight to the equally biased drivel that comes from the more mainstream Japanese leg-humping sources. They had a legitimate point about Japanese horsepower over-rating. They had a legitimate point about the Fusion vs Camry (recent thread) and many other things. And now they have a point about the issues with SMG transmissions too. Lots of reviewers have complained about this, and I've read of more than a few E60 M5 owners either selling their car to pickup an E39 M5 used because they wanted the true 6spd manual, or who have stated that they plan to trade for the 6MT as soon as it comes out. The SMG is fine if you're cruising at speed, but once you get down into city or low-speed areas with traffic it's jerky, dim-witted, and slow to respond. When I'm in the Maxima I can decide precisely how I want to shift, when I want to shift, and if I'm going to bang into the next gear so hard that the tires break loose, or if it'll be so smooth that you can't even feel the shift. And on hard braking I also get the pleasure of being able to execute (for myself) heel-toe braking along with a nice double-clutched rev-matched downshift into 2nd for the turn. That can be tough with size 14 feet, but I can manage.
All of this computer garbage and "technology" just isolates you even further from direct control over the car and makes it less fun to drive. BMW knows this, their customers know it, and those in the press know it, which is why they're coming out with a 6MT. Unlike certain other companies, BMW is actually repsonsive to the demands of their customers. And all this article is doing is pointing that out.
05-05-06, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UberNoob
half of the article wasnt talking about the problem
first half was just dribbling on and even talking about how 300C is appealing
lol
what a laughable waste of time
this article makes some good points but still not technical enough for my engineering background
and i still think SMG is the way of the future and does perform pretty well when u have selected the right mode for the right driving condition
that is if u can get everything setup and start driving before the sun goes down...
first half was just dribbling on and even talking about how 300C is appealing
lol
what a laughable waste of time
this article makes some good points but still not technical enough for my engineering background
and i still think SMG is the way of the future and does perform pretty well when u have selected the right mode for the right driving condition
that is if u can get everything setup and start driving before the sun goes down...
And your last comment was the whole point. Even if you could get a "just right" mode for every occasion, what the heck are you supposed to do? Keep fiddling with the settings everytime you encounter a different driving situation every other minute? Human brain + 3rd pedal >> SMG. The SMG-only setup was put in the car so that people that cannot drive a standard would be able to buy the car. Or maybe it saves warranty clutch replacements for people that tried but just couldn't. That's fine, let them put up with the jerkiness and dim-wittedness of the SMG if they cannot or are unwilling to drive a standard. But it's an enthusiast car. Put the tried and true standard tranny in it for them so that they don't have to deal with that nonsense.
05-06-06, 06:12 AM
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If I got a BMW, I'd unfortunately have to pass on both the 6MT and the SMG and go with the traditional automatic. 
My wife can't drive a manual and I'm tired of not being able to switch cars with her when needed. And I'm not so much of a die-hard manual driver that I couldn't be happy with anything else, so that's out. The SMG is neat in concept, but until it can start reading your mind and has full situational awareness and predictive capabilities it's going to keep on having usability quirks like it does now. I think the better option is the VW/Audi DSG, which is a ton smoother than the BMW SMG, and BMW is said to be working on one of these. Plus my wife can get motion sickness very easily. If we were crusing around at lower speeds in traffic and the SMG started to go through one of its "jerky fits" my wife would just hate it. I've read on the Bimmer forums about guys' wives refusing to drive the cars anymore because of that. So SMG is out. And that leaves the 6spd Steptronic automatic. Not bad, good gearing, normal, sport, and manumatic modes, smooth shifting, no jerk fits, and in a lot of cases practically as quick as the manuals. So that's good enough for me.
I'd really love to get an Audi with a DSG - I've heard nothing but good things about that gearbox other than that you apparently (not 100% sure on this) cannot skip gears. If you're on the highway and want to overtake and do a direct 6-3 or 5-3 downshift you apparently cannot and have to go 6-5-4-3. That would be annoying, but considering the smoothness I think I could live with that. The only problem is that they only have it in their smaller cars at the moment, and I generally don't care for their cars or their designs either. My wife thinks they're horrible looking, they tend to be on the slow and heavy side, and you're usually left with a choice of either FWD which I don't want, or AWD which I don't really want either.
Not sure when BMW's DSG is coming out, but I hope to see a lot more of these in the future.
My wife can't drive a manual and I'm tired of not being able to switch cars with her when needed. And I'm not so much of a die-hard manual driver that I couldn't be happy with anything else, so that's out. The SMG is neat in concept, but until it can start reading your mind and has full situational awareness and predictive capabilities it's going to keep on having usability quirks like it does now. I think the better option is the VW/Audi DSG, which is a ton smoother than the BMW SMG, and BMW is said to be working on one of these.
Plus my wife can get motion sickness very easily. If we were crusing around at lower speeds in traffic and the SMG started to go through one of its "jerky fits" my wife would just hate it. I've read on the Bimmer forums about guys' wives refusing to drive the cars anymore because of that. So SMG is out. And that leaves the 6spd Steptronic automatic. Not bad, good gearing, normal, sport, and manumatic modes, smooth shifting, no jerk fits, and in a lot of cases practically as quick as the manuals. So that's good enough for me.I'd really love to get an Audi with a DSG - I've heard nothing but good things about that gearbox other than that you apparently (not 100% sure on this) cannot skip gears. If you're on the highway and want to overtake and do a direct 6-3 or 5-3 downshift you apparently cannot and have to go 6-5-4-3. That would be annoying, but considering the smoothness I think I could live with that. The only problem is that they only have it in their smaller cars at the moment, and I generally don't care for their cars or their designs either. My wife thinks they're horrible looking, they tend to be on the slow and heavy side, and you're usually left with a choice of either FWD which I don't want, or AWD which I don't really want either.
Not sure when BMW's DSG is coming out, but I hope to see a lot more of these in the future.
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05-06-06, 10:12 AM
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Well even BMW is confused. The 550 etc can be had with all that active steering/roll bar technology. And in reviews, its gotten mixed results, it takes away from the classic BMW feel and "artificial" has been used more than once.
The funny thing is on the M5, THEY DON'T USE IT!! Old-school tech and anti-roll bars.
And if I got a BMW, has to be a manual. (I don't have a wife Steve)
The funny thing is on the M5, THEY DON'T USE IT!! Old-school tech and anti-roll bars.
And if I got a BMW, has to be a manual. (I don't have a wife Steve)
05-06-06, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SteVTEC
So 425hp in a full-sized car for $40k isn't appealing? The hell it is... The only thing I don't like about that car is the styling. Lots of people love the badass American in your face looks, and it has awesome road presense, but it's just not me.
And your last comment was the whole point. Even if you could get a "just right" mode for every occasion, what the heck are you supposed to do? Keep fiddling with the settings everytime you encounter a different driving situation every other minute? Human brain + 3rd pedal >> SMG. The SMG-only setup was put in the car so that people that cannot drive a standard would be able to buy the car. Or maybe it saves warranty clutch replacements for people that tried but just couldn't. That's fine, let them put up with the jerkiness and dim-wittedness of the SMG if they cannot or are unwilling to drive a standard. But it's an enthusiast car. Put the tried and true standard tranny in it for them so that they don't have to deal with that nonsense.
And your last comment was the whole point. Even if you could get a "just right" mode for every occasion, what the heck are you supposed to do? Keep fiddling with the settings everytime you encounter a different driving situation every other minute? Human brain + 3rd pedal >> SMG. The SMG-only setup was put in the car so that people that cannot drive a standard would be able to buy the car. Or maybe it saves warranty clutch replacements for people that tried but just couldn't. That's fine, let them put up with the jerkiness and dim-wittedness of the SMG if they cannot or are unwilling to drive a standard. But it's an enthusiast car. Put the tried and true standard tranny in it for them so that they don't have to deal with that nonsense.
the car has too cheap of an interior to be considered a good luxury sports sedan
ride is too soft and aimed at comfort and cornering isnt good
so all of the sudden when u hit the curves and bends, those 425bhp become pretty useless
not to mention the appaling brakes too
the price is a great attraction
but unless u want the mod the heck out of the car, the engine just isnt meant for it
if u really want a serious american hot rod type car
i woudl wait for the new camaro and see how that does
or for 44k, id rather buy an ordinary corvette
either go almost all out on luxury or all out on sportiness
anyways
at least BMW is bringing a full 6 speed manual M5 to the game
i dont think theres anything wrong with SMG
there are still automatic M5 drivers out there that will appreciate SMG
its for corporate ppl that wants to have occasional fun on the weekends but drive to work and back home without exhausting him/her self with the clutch and gears
it makes sense
05-06-06, 05:04 PM
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This thread is one of those surprising ones where some very good opinions are being voiced without too much autoego involved. I have to start by saying that I haven't driven any techno transmissions that were impressive. If I wanted a manual transmission, I haven't found any substitute. If I want an automatic, I want a good automatic. My wife can drive a manual but the traffic around here makes a manual a detraction 99% of the time. I have the feeling that while I may not be a big fan of any automotive press opinion, that the guy had it right that the M5 will be far more enjoyable with the manual when it gets here.
As for a more philosophical approach let's be up front, the Germans are trying to assist in justifying their image and pricing with implementations of technology. Sometimes you can't learn anywhere near as much in the lab as you can with vehicles on the road. But in truth, I would single out bimmer for putting technology in cars that is not ready more than anyone else. I do not know whether they do not want to take the time to get things sorted out or whether their engineers/management are incapable of making a good call on whether something is ready and worth doing or whether when your sales are increasing the way theirs is you begin to believe you can do no wrong. But it is annoying that some of the technology they implement is either not ready, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, or just a step backwards. Now to be fair I think all the auto makers are getting prone to this but bimmer is in the lead as far as I am concerned. Would anyone who is interested in working on their own car keep a modern car after the warranty is out? I sure wouldn't. Anyone want to try and rebuild a bimmer SMG in your garage? I have rebuilt turbo hydro 350 and 400s and quite a few manual trannies but I wouldn't even take one of these out of the car.
The other thing to admit to ourselves is that this is the future and not very much we can do with it. Reliability will suffer for all makers, yes, even Toyota. The amount of electronics is really going to give a lot of people problems. Not just getting it right to begin with but then having it run reliably in the real world. So from that standpoint, maybe bimmer does as good a job as anyone could with technology implementations. But I wish they would do a bit more in house work and really answer honestly if something they are doing is an improvement or just different. As for using customers to troubleshoot your product, well I guess that is why bimmer teamed with GM for hybrid development.
As for a more philosophical approach let's be up front, the Germans are trying to assist in justifying their image and pricing with implementations of technology. Sometimes you can't learn anywhere near as much in the lab as you can with vehicles on the road. But in truth, I would single out bimmer for putting technology in cars that is not ready more than anyone else. I do not know whether they do not want to take the time to get things sorted out or whether their engineers/management are incapable of making a good call on whether something is ready and worth doing or whether when your sales are increasing the way theirs is you begin to believe you can do no wrong. But it is annoying that some of the technology they implement is either not ready, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, or just a step backwards. Now to be fair I think all the auto makers are getting prone to this but bimmer is in the lead as far as I am concerned. Would anyone who is interested in working on their own car keep a modern car after the warranty is out? I sure wouldn't. Anyone want to try and rebuild a bimmer SMG in your garage? I have rebuilt turbo hydro 350 and 400s and quite a few manual trannies but I wouldn't even take one of these out of the car.
The other thing to admit to ourselves is that this is the future and not very much we can do with it. Reliability will suffer for all makers, yes, even Toyota. The amount of electronics is really going to give a lot of people problems. Not just getting it right to begin with but then having it run reliably in the real world. So from that standpoint, maybe bimmer does as good a job as anyone could with technology implementations. But I wish they would do a bit more in house work and really answer honestly if something they are doing is an improvement or just different. As for using customers to troubleshoot your product, well I guess that is why bimmer teamed with GM for hybrid development.
05-06-06, 05:11 PM
#12
Originally Posted by UberNoob
also im wondering
has Maserati implemented the SMG in the quattroporte better than BMW did with the M5?
has Maserati implemented the SMG in the quattroporte better than BMW did with the M5?
p.s. ron430 - SMG tranny rebuild is exactly the same as manual tranny rebuild... because it is an manual transmission :-).
05-06-06, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by spwolf
p.s. ron430 - SMG tranny rebuild is exactly the same as manual tranny rebuild... because it is an manual transmission :-).
05-06-06, 05:36 PM
#14
Originally Posted by RON430
I have to tell you that any bimmer gear box is generally not like anything else on the road. I have paid for two to be rebuilt and found that out. just assuming it is a ZF or whatever transmission wasn't good enough, bimmer had enough "unique" features to make the box considerably more expensive to rebuild. I would be willing to bet that the M5 SMG is no where near as straight forward to rebuild as a pure manual gearbox but I have no intention of finding out. If your point is that the internals of the SMG is identical and that the actuation is external and therefore somehow not part of the tranny, maybe that is true, but I doubt that a tranny repair shop would look at it that way. Inevitably if there is a problem with the tranny you will have to involve the actuation and electronics as part of the possible repair and there are costs associated with that. As I said, I would be willing to bet that the repair bill on a pure six speed manual transmission, say in something like a Mustang, will be a lot less than bimmers SMG. I hope no one here has any hard numbers on this. Nonetheless, I have driven bimmers SMG and I agree with the guy in the newspaper article, I wouldn't take it over a pure manual gearbox. If I want to row for myself, I know how to use both feet when I drive.
Internals of tranny are basically same as of any manual tranny. Of course, being BMW tranny I am sure it would be complicated to repair. SMG type systems usually have problems with flywheel and clutch though not gears themselves.
05-07-06, 07:26 AM
#15
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Maryland
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Originally Posted by UberNoob
IMO, the 300C w/ 425bhp is just not a good marriage
the car has too cheap of an interior to be considered a good luxury sports sedan
ride is too soft and aimed at comfort and cornering isnt good
so all of the sudden when u hit the curves and bends, those 425bhp become pretty useless
not to mention the appaling brakes too
the car has too cheap of an interior to be considered a good luxury sports sedan
ride is too soft and aimed at comfort and cornering isnt good
so all of the sudden when u hit the curves and bends, those 425bhp become pretty useless
not to mention the appaling brakes too
And not everybody cares about interior quality.
