TwiBlueG35

We are simply talking about brand image, where do you think the current Lexus is in the luxury auto market? Let's ignore the reliability, performance, value, and other stuff, simply how much prestigue you think Lexus implies right now. You can vote.

HarrierAWD

I think Lexus is still a notch below BMW and Benz in terms of prestige, but has surpassed Jaguar since Ford has trashed that brand thoroughly. I think BMW will fall below Lexus soon because Chris Bangle has done a wonderful job messing up the brand, too. The new sheetmetal wasn't well-received (other than the Z4.) Its idiotDrive system baffles even the most tech-savvy owners.

Lexus needs to maintain its quality and reliability, its unsurpassed customer service, and a price advantage over its European competitors. If possible, engineer a suspension that both handles and rides well to compete against BMW and Benz on equal footing.

parula

I put LX below MB but gaining on BMW imo. I think MB is just at another level entirely. Lexus really fills a slightly different niche in the luxury market, not sure I would ever really have them equal until Lexus develops more models and establishes performance records.

xfirechief

While in Florida a Acura SUV owner drove in our RX 330 and said ours was much nicer both inside & out. In fact he was going to trade into a new RX 330 when he got back home.

Lil4X

I don’t think it’s as simple as that, but I imagine it depends on your personal definition of “luxury”. Luxury and prestige are often confused in the minds of the general public. For nearly 100 years, Cadillac has called itself “the standard of excellence”, but foreign manufacturers have moved the bar. Rolls and Bentley – with newcomer Maybach – have clearly moved into the “unattainable”, stratosphere of prestige where luxury and performance no longer have meaning.

Maybe it would be useful to arrange brands on a two-dimensional array. We could plot “prestige” on a vertical axis, with “performance” and “luxury” to the left and right of the gnomon. As an example, if, in honor of the age of the marque, we set MB as the benchmark for the class, we can arrange a spectrum of vehicles alongside it, arrayed from “performance” to “luxury”. This does not necessarily reflect the individual qualities of specific models, but the image held by most reasonably knowledgeable car buyers.

In general corporate image, I believe BMW would of course come down to the left – or “performance” end of the scale, Lexus on the right – or “luxury”. Audi would appear on a second tier – not quite perceived on the same level as BMW – MB – Lexus, but maybe a bit further to the left than BMW. Porsche might fit on this tier, to the left of BMW. Acura to the right. Infiniti might appear on a slightly lower third tier, somewhere between MB and BMW on the performance – luxury scale. Cadillac and Lincoln might occupy this level too, with Caddy slightly to the right of Infiniti and Lincoln much further to the right.

The problem with this arrangement is that there are models within each marque that obviously do not conform to the overall public perception of the manufacturer. Factory “tuner” cars, AMG, Ruff, Dinan, etc. go to the extreme left of their host marque, often crossing over into and beyond the territory staked out by another host.

Within such a matrix perhaps we could place most “upscale” cars – based strictly on overall brand image – but we should remember these positions are fluid . . . Audi, Infiniti, and Cadillac making great efforts in recent years to position themselves toward the “performance” end of the spectrum, while all strive to ascend the scale of “prestige”. Overall, there seems to be a migration toward the upper left of this scale as technology and market pressure move the product in that direction.

Is this arrangement helpful? Or does it just confuse the issue . . .

xfirechief

[QUOTE=Lil4X]I don’t think it’s as simple as that, but I imagine it depends on your personal definition of “luxury”.


A lot of words but what are u saying? One likes what one likes. If we all liked the same thing that would be terrible.
Is that what u are driving at??

mmarshall

You've done a good job, Lil, of explaining the details, but I think I can wrap the whole thing up in just a few sentences. The whole difference betwen "sport " and " luxury " is totally different from the automotive world I grew up in several decades ago. What once was considered " luxury " .......5000-6000 lb. cars with ultra-soft suspensions and high-profile, smooth-riding tires don't exist anymore. The whole auto industry has moved sharply toward handling and steering response at the expense of ride comfort. Normal family sedans today would be considered sporty...and harsh-riding......by 1960's / 70's standards, primarily because tires today are so much lower in profile. The LS430, De Ville, Le Sabre / Park Avenue, Town Car, and non-AMG Mercedes S-Class, which have smooth " luxury " rides rides by TODAY's standards, would be considered "sporty " by 60's-70's standards. You simply cannot find the cloudlike rides any more of the 1970's luxury cars...it does not exist, primarliy because of an obsession today with stiffness and steering response.

And.....even the cars of the 60's / 70's were considered harsh-riding and "sporty" by the standards of the late 40's /50's. Some of the most comfortable-riding cars ever built were made during the 1950's. They rode absolutely like clouds on ultra-soft springs....but you paid dearly for it in the corners, where they rolled like beach *****.

L-Finesser

I think Lexus is at BMW and Benz level. Two main reasons.
1) The Germans have slippped due to qulaity challenges and too much "entry-level" product.
2) Lexus has been consistent with product and a true leader innovator in customer service.

I think the opportunity for Lexus now is to surpass the Germans. But they'll need to have brilliant product consistently. The GS series is good. It needs to exceptional.

mmarshall

As you guys know, I take a dim view of so-called automotive "image". I have sometimes been criticized for that here on CL, but I have to call it like I see it. IMO it is a bunch of nonsense. I rate vehicles mostly by objective factors. But, having said that, I would have to place Lexus clearly on top. No other manufacturer today IMO designs and builds a better all-around vehicle...although a couple of others come close, which I'll get to in a minute. M-B and Volvo products still excel in safety features and a bank-vault crashworthy frame (always have), but the electronics and general reliability have become junk. BMW...we don't have to re-hash that....we've said enough about them. Jaguar still builds a beautiful but unreliable car, although reliablity in general has improved since Ford took over. Audi, in many ways is overtaking BMW as the so-called "driver's car" , and does some great interior detail, but is dogged with the European electronic gremlins, too-large grilles, and a BMW-style MMI-Drive.
Now...a couple of other manufacturers are approaching Lexus in really being committed to their work. Subaru's latest Legacy and Outback is truly outstanding, and offers a Lexus-grade interior and fit-and-finish for a Subaru price. Hyundai and Hyundai-owned Kia....what more can we add here? Their rise in the auto world has been nothing short of stratospheric. In just 5-7 years they have gone from making some of the worst vehicles to some of the best...especially for the low prices.

Still, by almost any standards you want to name......image, prestige, quality, all-around competence....it is hard to beat Lexus.

Falcon LS

I couldn't agree more!

Lil4X

Couldn't agree more, there's surely a time component in there somewhere. Our technologies have grown and improved - and the needs are different because the background has changed.

The cars of the '40s and early '50s were built for the two-lane blacktop, just before migration to suburbia. Speed limits were much lower and with less congestion, lower speeds and narrower, somewhat rougher roads, that pillowy ride was both a "luxury" and an acceptable tradeoff, given there were no real demands placed on suspensions for handling.

By the mid '50s the car was being sold as a suburban status symbol - "longer, lower, wider" was the catch phrase. That "pillow-soft ride" and "road-hugging weight" were actually product features to be sought after.

Muscle cars brought in straight line performance in the '60s, which in turn created the need for improved handling and firmer suspensions when the buying public discoverd a turn at the end of the quarter-mile.

By then, the Interstate network was replacing two-lane America, and "foreign" imports, still largely British plus Volkswagen, were calibrated for the narrow lanes and costly fuel of postwar Europe. Economy was a quirky offshoot of the small VW, something for bragging rights at the country club, but with gas at 18 cents per gallon, it wasn't much of a buying consideration.

Then came the oil crunch of the '70s, and the picture changed - and continues to change today. Economy, while it could be considered a feature, was bundled with "efficiency", "environmentalism" as the manufacturers turned to technical solutions and moved away from crass "consumption". Where once "bigger was better", now concepts like "precision", "tactile", and "fit and finish" began to define luxury. Now, just as oil prices are shooting skyward, "power" is starting to re-emerge as a definition of luxury.

Luxury is certainly a product of the times.

LeXuSrAcIn

I said its still below MB and BMW. It still lacks the performance out of the factory. WIth the upcoming hybrids, that might change...

GS3Tek

iTrader: (8)

Just by looking at the badge and what the prestige holds for Lexus, I would agree that Lexus is still below BMW and MB. Ignore reliability and all other factors that make Lexus great, it still doesn't have that "command presence" yet.
For example, to the GENERAL public (and general is used very loosely), if you are to valet the 3 cars, let's use S500, 745il, and LS430 UL, you will see the oohs and aahs mostly for the S and 7s.
If you are to ask the friends who are non-car enthusiasts and ask if they to pick 1 of the 3, most answers will be S and 7s.

80-90% of the people even have no idea that Chrysler and Daimler even merged, 05 maintenace was dropped, who Chris Bangle is, the horrible reliability issues with the Germans ....blah blah blah that we car people know, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter.

Most people know what I'm talking about, an S430 745i and an LS430 UL are about the same price range, but in that price range people want to "prestige-snob factor".

A little shallow here, but sorry to say, I see the difference when I drive my old S500 and a friend's LS (not fair to compare when I drive my GS ).

In my conclusion, I love my Lexus

LEXUS FAN!

I think it is higher than Acura and Infiinit, but still lower than MB and BMW

In my opinion, it should be higher, but it's not yet, which is why car magazines often times do noit put lexus in the mix.

XeroK00L

In my mind, Lexus' brand image has already surpassed that of MB and BMW. Unfortunately, the fact that MB and BMW are still getting away with charging people more than Lexus for similarly equipped vehicles means that, objectively speaking, they still possess a higher brand image.