Shifting the Paradym - Are Hybrids Ready for a Revolution?
02-28-05, 08:42 PM
#1
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Shifting the Paradym - Are Hybrids Ready for a Revolution?
Everything you thought you knew about hybrids may soon be wrong.
by Paul A. Eisenstein (2005-02-28)
When oil prices soared to an all-time high last year, sales of Toyota 's little Prius hybrid also soared to record levels. At one point, dealers around the U.S. reported waiting lists of up to eight months, and even now, after the third increase in production capacity, the giant automaker continues struggling to meet demand.
Long skeptical of the technology, and reluctant to commit to production, the success of the Prius has provided a wake-up call for Detroit and European manufacturers. Ford recently launched its first hybrid, a version of its Escape SUV, and has announced plans for four more. General Motors and DaimlerChrysler have formed a joint venture to produce a new type of "dual-mode" hybrid, while even Volkswagen, long a proponent of diesel technology, has conceded the need to develop a hybrid.
There are still plenty of skeptics who argue that hybrid technology doesn't save enough fuel to justify the added expense. But "We forgot the emotional impact and the fact that a lot of people out there want to make an environmental statement," said GM vice chairman Bob Lutz.
Honda and Toyota , the two Japanese automakers most committed to hybrid-electric vehicles, continue to hold a lead in the emerging hybrid segment, and both have suggested they will soon offer gasoline-electric powertrain options on the majority of their product lines. But while their earliest models may have focused on fuel economy above all else, the two manufacturers appear ready to shift gears and demonstrate that hybrid technology is far more versatile than many have envisioned. In the process, their next generation of hybrids could give them a significant competitive advantage.
On tap
Honda's new Accord Hybrid provides a glimpse of what's on tap. The automaker's first two hybrids, the teardrop-shaped Insight and compact Civic Hybrid, downsized their gasoline engines as part of the overall strategy to boost mileage, sacrificing comfort, as well as performance.
The gasoline-electric version of the Accord uses essentially the same 3.0-liter engine as the conventional sedan, so it doesn't deliver the same sort of big mileage bump of the Insight or Civic Hybrid. But put the pedal to the metal and you'll unleash a hefty 255 horsepower and 232 lb-ft of torque. That's 15 hp and 20 lb-ft more than the conventional V-6 Accord - and enough to launch the hybrid from 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, a full half-second faster than the gasoline-only model.
The long-delayed Lexus RX400h, the world's first luxury hybrid, follows a similar strategy, and next year's GS450h sedan will be "pure performance," promises Denny Clements, U.S. general manager of Toyota 's high-line division.
In a recent interview with TheCarConnection.com, Clements revealed that Lexus is considering a high-performance brand-within-the-brand, similar to Mercedes' AMG. But Toyota sources hint that if the project is approved, there could be one notable difference: the Lexus unit is likely to put an emphasis on what one insider dubbed "green performance."
Rather than go with bigger and bigger engines with gas-guzzling turbos or superchargers, Lexus is likely to use hybrid powertrains that would still deliver better mileage, but be geared more towards off-the-line acceleration.
That's something electric propulsion is especially well-suited to, automotive engineers generally agree. The typical internal combustion engine has to rev up before it reaches its optimum torque curve. Forced induction systems, such as a turbocharger, can speed up the process, but only so much - and with a fuel economy penalty. Electric motors, on the other hand, deliver maximum torque the moment they start spinning. And it's torque that gives a car its take-off power.
There are still some technological challenges to work through. Today's hybrid battery systems can hold only a relatively small amount of power, energy that would be used up fast under hard driving conditions. Larger nickel-metal hydride or more advanced lithium battery packs will be needed. And current hybrid drivetrains will have to be optimized - or new systems developed - for performance-oriented driving.
Shifting the paradigm
This approach would be a "true paradigm shift," said Dan Gorrell, chief analyst with the market research firm, Strategic Visions. "It would allow the manufacturers to market hybrids as offering a lot more advantages than just a green play."
Performance isn't the only advantage that hybrids might offer. Packaging could prove another plus. Consider the prototype for what could become the next Acura NSX, which the Japanese automaker unveiled at the Tokyo Motor Show in 2003. The rear wheels were driven by a combination of gasoline and electric power, while the front wheels were electric only. The strategy created a hybrid all-wheel-drive system without having to make room for a conventional AWD driveshaft.
Front- or rear-wheel-drive vehicles could be given electric AWD without extensive platform modifications - significantly offsetting the added cost of hybrid hardware, noted Gorrell.
DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group actually was the first automaker to give serious thought to this approach when it proposed a so-called through-the-road hybrid version of its Durango sport-utility vehicle. The project was scrubbed, however, before reaching production. And it's unclear if the automaker is continuing to work on any similar designs.
Indeed, outside Japan , manufacturers seem largely content to focus on using hybrid technology for the sole purpose of increasing fuel economy. The idea of performance hybrids, "is not what we're about," said Phil Martens, Ford's group vice president for Product Creation, North America. He insisted the approach Toyota and Honda are taking "is not sustainable over time."
It's likely to take another three to five years to see who is right. According to a recent report by J.D. Power & Associates, the hybrid share of the U.S. market is likely to increase as much as five-fold by decades end. Whether the hybrid of 2010 continues to focus solely on fuel economy, or puts an emphasis on performance and packaging, as well, could determine which automakers will dominate the hybrid segment.
source : thecarconnection
by Paul A. Eisenstein (2005-02-28)
When oil prices soared to an all-time high last year, sales of Toyota 's little Prius hybrid also soared to record levels. At one point, dealers around the U.S. reported waiting lists of up to eight months, and even now, after the third increase in production capacity, the giant automaker continues struggling to meet demand.
Long skeptical of the technology, and reluctant to commit to production, the success of the Prius has provided a wake-up call for Detroit and European manufacturers. Ford recently launched its first hybrid, a version of its Escape SUV, and has announced plans for four more. General Motors and DaimlerChrysler have formed a joint venture to produce a new type of "dual-mode" hybrid, while even Volkswagen, long a proponent of diesel technology, has conceded the need to develop a hybrid.
There are still plenty of skeptics who argue that hybrid technology doesn't save enough fuel to justify the added expense. But "We forgot the emotional impact and the fact that a lot of people out there want to make an environmental statement," said GM vice chairman Bob Lutz.
Honda and Toyota , the two Japanese automakers most committed to hybrid-electric vehicles, continue to hold a lead in the emerging hybrid segment, and both have suggested they will soon offer gasoline-electric powertrain options on the majority of their product lines. But while their earliest models may have focused on fuel economy above all else, the two manufacturers appear ready to shift gears and demonstrate that hybrid technology is far more versatile than many have envisioned. In the process, their next generation of hybrids could give them a significant competitive advantage.
On tap
Honda's new Accord Hybrid provides a glimpse of what's on tap. The automaker's first two hybrids, the teardrop-shaped Insight and compact Civic Hybrid, downsized their gasoline engines as part of the overall strategy to boost mileage, sacrificing comfort, as well as performance.
The gasoline-electric version of the Accord uses essentially the same 3.0-liter engine as the conventional sedan, so it doesn't deliver the same sort of big mileage bump of the Insight or Civic Hybrid. But put the pedal to the metal and you'll unleash a hefty 255 horsepower and 232 lb-ft of torque. That's 15 hp and 20 lb-ft more than the conventional V-6 Accord - and enough to launch the hybrid from 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, a full half-second faster than the gasoline-only model.
The long-delayed Lexus RX400h, the world's first luxury hybrid, follows a similar strategy, and next year's GS450h sedan will be "pure performance," promises Denny Clements, U.S. general manager of Toyota 's high-line division.
In a recent interview with TheCarConnection.com, Clements revealed that Lexus is considering a high-performance brand-within-the-brand, similar to Mercedes' AMG. But Toyota sources hint that if the project is approved, there could be one notable difference: the Lexus unit is likely to put an emphasis on what one insider dubbed "green performance."
Rather than go with bigger and bigger engines with gas-guzzling turbos or superchargers, Lexus is likely to use hybrid powertrains that would still deliver better mileage, but be geared more towards off-the-line acceleration.
That's something electric propulsion is especially well-suited to, automotive engineers generally agree. The typical internal combustion engine has to rev up before it reaches its optimum torque curve. Forced induction systems, such as a turbocharger, can speed up the process, but only so much - and with a fuel economy penalty. Electric motors, on the other hand, deliver maximum torque the moment they start spinning. And it's torque that gives a car its take-off power.
There are still some technological challenges to work through. Today's hybrid battery systems can hold only a relatively small amount of power, energy that would be used up fast under hard driving conditions. Larger nickel-metal hydride or more advanced lithium battery packs will be needed. And current hybrid drivetrains will have to be optimized - or new systems developed - for performance-oriented driving.
Shifting the paradigm
This approach would be a "true paradigm shift," said Dan Gorrell, chief analyst with the market research firm, Strategic Visions. "It would allow the manufacturers to market hybrids as offering a lot more advantages than just a green play."
Performance isn't the only advantage that hybrids might offer. Packaging could prove another plus. Consider the prototype for what could become the next Acura NSX, which the Japanese automaker unveiled at the Tokyo Motor Show in 2003. The rear wheels were driven by a combination of gasoline and electric power, while the front wheels were electric only. The strategy created a hybrid all-wheel-drive system without having to make room for a conventional AWD driveshaft.
Front- or rear-wheel-drive vehicles could be given electric AWD without extensive platform modifications - significantly offsetting the added cost of hybrid hardware, noted Gorrell.
DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group actually was the first automaker to give serious thought to this approach when it proposed a so-called through-the-road hybrid version of its Durango sport-utility vehicle. The project was scrubbed, however, before reaching production. And it's unclear if the automaker is continuing to work on any similar designs.
Indeed, outside Japan , manufacturers seem largely content to focus on using hybrid technology for the sole purpose of increasing fuel economy. The idea of performance hybrids, "is not what we're about," said Phil Martens, Ford's group vice president for Product Creation, North America. He insisted the approach Toyota and Honda are taking "is not sustainable over time."
It's likely to take another three to five years to see who is right. According to a recent report by J.D. Power & Associates, the hybrid share of the U.S. market is likely to increase as much as five-fold by decades end. Whether the hybrid of 2010 continues to focus solely on fuel economy, or puts an emphasis on performance and packaging, as well, could determine which automakers will dominate the hybrid segment.
source : thecarconnection
03-01-05, 07:11 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by AmethySC
[B]There are still plenty of skeptics who argue that hybrid technology doesn't save enough fuel to justify the added expense.
I have long believed....and still do......that small diesels can save as much or more fuel than hybrids do.....with a LOT less complexity. Particulate emissions have been a diesel problem in CA and a few other states, but even that has great promise starting next year with the clean low-sulfur diesel fuel we will be getting (by EPA mandate) and new urea-injection systems for diesels that promise to clean up the exhaust even more.
There have been several CL threads on ths subject.....the diesel-hybrid comparison.
Notice that in Europe....where fuel prices are much higher than here.....there is very little interest in hybrids. Diesels make up about half of total vehicle sales....for a reason.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-01-05 at 07:14 AM.
03-01-05, 07:38 AM
#3
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Yes there are....and I am one of them.
I have long believed....and still do......that small diesels can save as much or more fuel than hybrids do.....with a LOT less complexity. Particulate emissions have been a diesel problem in CA and a few other states, but even that has great promise starting next year with the clean low-sulfur diesel fuel we will be getting (by EPA mandate) and new urea-injection systems for diesels that promise to clean up the exhaust even more.
There have been several CL threads on ths subject.....the diesel-hybrid comparison.
Notice that in Europe....where fuel prices are much higher than here.....there is very little interest in hybrids. Diesels make up about half of total vehicle sales....for a reason.
I have long believed....and still do......that small diesels can save as much or more fuel than hybrids do.....with a LOT less complexity. Particulate emissions have been a diesel problem in CA and a few other states, but even that has great promise starting next year with the clean low-sulfur diesel fuel we will be getting (by EPA mandate) and new urea-injection systems for diesels that promise to clean up the exhaust even more.
There have been several CL threads on ths subject.....the diesel-hybrid comparison.
Notice that in Europe....where fuel prices are much higher than here.....there is very little interest in hybrids. Diesels make up about half of total vehicle sales....for a reason.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-01-05 at 07:42 AM.
03-01-05, 08:09 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by AmethySC
Diesels are popular in Europe just because it's OLD & long established as an economy fuel, that's the main reason. It's relatively easier to gain acceptance here for hybrids because diesels have always been a failure here outside of commercial vehicles. .
True, diesels have generally not been popular here except for a brief period in the late 70's-early 80's when some truly awful ones were produced. The new-technology diesels (you say you support new technology) are light-years ahead of those 25-year-old designs.
You are going to se a lot of thing start to change here in the next few years when low-sulfur diesel fuel becomes readily available here. In fact, even with the not-so-clean fuel we got now, a colleague of mine with a new Jetta TDI diesel gets almost 60 MPG on the road......better than any hybrid except the toy-like Honda Insight.
by the way...I like your new name....Amethy.
Reminds me of one of the best automotive colors available...Amethyst
03-01-05, 08:22 AM
#5
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Diesels are popular in Europe not necssarily because of tradition but because of high fuel economy with a low-complexity powertrain.
True, diesels have generally not been popular here except for a brief period in the late 70's-early 80's when some truly awful ones were produced. The new-technology diesels (you say you support new technology) are light-years ahead of those 25-year-old designs.
You are going to se a lot of thing start to change here in the next few years when low-sulfur diesel fuel becomes readily available here. In fact, even with the not-so-clean fuel we got now, a colleague of mine with a new Jetta TDI diesel gets almost 60 MPG on the road......better than any hybrid except the toy-like Honda Insight.
by the way...I like your new name....Amethy. Reminds me of one of the best automotive colors available...Amethyst
True, diesels have generally not been popular here except for a brief period in the late 70's-early 80's when some truly awful ones were produced. The new-technology diesels (you say you support new technology) are light-years ahead of those 25-year-old designs.
You are going to se a lot of thing start to change here in the next few years when low-sulfur diesel fuel becomes readily available here. In fact, even with the not-so-clean fuel we got now, a colleague of mine with a new Jetta TDI diesel gets almost 60 MPG on the road......better than any hybrid except the toy-like Honda Insight.
by the way...I like your new name....Amethy.
Reminds me of one of the best automotive colors available...AmethystI hope I'll never need to go back to non-luxury cars lol, hence no diesels for me.
BTW, my new name really is " Twilight Amethyst Pearl SC430 ", shortened to AmethySC.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 03-01-05 at 08:29 AM.
03-01-05, 10:24 AM
#6
Lexus Champion
mmarshall has posed the same question to you. i'm not sure if it's been answered by you at all-- how did you get your handle changed, sex money drugs or all of the above? i like the name too because my last name in chinese is purple-- so rare that as i grew up in taiwan, teachers always had to ask me about the origin of that last name. i just told them i came out from the stone or the peach 
Trending Topics
03-01-05, 01:49 PM
#8
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Sick, article dated 2/28/05 so it's yesterday 
Much of the stuff we've heard before, but they just mentioned Lexus still considering hybrid for possible AMG/M competitor again, while some had mentioned before that they're planning supercharged versions, so I decided it's worth posting.
Much of the stuff we've heard before, but they just mentioned Lexus still considering hybrid for possible AMG/M competitor again, while some had mentioned before that they're planning supercharged versions, so I decided it's worth posting.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
LexFather
Car Chat
56
12-31-07 09:16 PM