How exactly is the M35/45 cheaper than the competiton? Comparison pricing included.
01-20-05, 08:52 PM
#1
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How exactly is the M35/45 cheaper than the competiton? Comparison pricing included.
Infiniti/Nissan lovers, this is not to bash the car at all. We pretty much concur the M35/45 is very solid and a welcome addition. But there are some facts you might not like in this thread. Please, its not bashing. What is standard and what is not will not be included in this thread, just base pricing. There will be another thread with a more detailed comparison soon. If I left out a model, forgive me.
There has been a lot of talk throughout the web on how did Infiniti set their pricing for this car so low. I didn’t really realize how much lower it was until I started this thread. The yen is not at a favorable exchange rate (its been better) so that is not it. CEO Carlos Ghosen is obsessed with profit and making money for Nissan, no way he’s going to sell this car below cost to get into the market. Not his style. So that is not it. So how did they do it?
Here is Infiniti M35/45 pricing
MSRP released for 2006 M:
M35: $39,900
M35 AWD: $42,400
M35 Sport: $42,700
M45: $46,750
M45 Sport: $49,550
Destination (not included): $610
Besides aggressive, that is very low. Here are some comparisons of cars currently on the market:
Acura Rl V-6-MSRP:$48,900.00
Destination: $570.00
Audi A6 3.2 starts at $40,900
Audi A6 4.2 starts at $50,500
BMW 525 MSRP $41,300
BMW 530 MSRP $45,400
BMW 545 MSRP $55,800
Destination & Handling $695
Cadillac STS V-6 Standard-$41,220
STS V-6 luxury/performance-$49,590
STS V-8 Standard=$50,340
STS V-8 luxury/performance-$58,560
Jaguar S-TYPE 3.0: MSRP $44,895
Jaguar S-TYPE 4.2: MSRP $51,995
Jaguar S-TYPE VDP Edition: MSRP $55,295
Lexus GS 300/430
We don't have American pricing. Only Canadian. But we figured the GS would be 2-3k more than the Infiniti M35/45.
ESTIMATE-
$42,000 GS 300
$45,000 for a GS 300 AWD,
$49,000 for a GS 430.
Mercedes Benz-E class
Wonderful surprise, you can get 4Matic (AWD) with the V-6 E320 and V-8 E500 sedan. But look at those prices!
E320- MSRP: $49,220.00
E320 4Matic- starts at MSRP: $51,720.00
E500 RWD $57,620.00
E500-4Matic-$60,120.00
Shared Platform
Clearly, the Infiniti M35/45 is cheaper than the competition without options. How did they do this?
Nissan and Carlos Ghosen are known for cost cutting. That is what turned the company around. Their cars share tons of parts with one another. Nissan might have really outdone themselves (in a positive manner) with this car. For those that don't know, the more expensive a car is from their cheaper platform, the higher the profits. Like a Hummer H2 is a stretched Tahoe chassis. GM makes close to 30k for every Hummer sold. 30k!! A loaded RX 330 is 48k, which is a price far from its Camry platform cousin.
The Infiniti M35/45 is a stretched FM platform. The FM platform is from the 350Z, which spawned many of the new hits from the company. In comparison, the Lexus GS or BMW 5 for example, those are platform specific cars. It costs tens maybe hundreds of millions of dollars more to create a new luxury platform. This new platform is much improved and will spawn the larger cars from Nissan. It also is from a 26k 350Z.
Shared Engine
The Infiniti M35 uses Nissans incredibly versatile and responsive 3.5 VQ engine. This engine is used in;
350Z
FX35
G35s
Murano
Maxima
Altima
Quest
The more engines you produce, the lower the cost. Lexus developed 2 new engines for the GS. The new 3.0 unit in the US GS 300 and the new 3.5 unit used in the Japanese GS 350. So while Lexus spent millions building new engines for their luxury cars, Infiniti simply slaps in an engine in millions of cars. So no money was spent on the M35 engine while Lexus spent millions developing these new powerplants. BMW and Benz does share some of its engines with their entry level class and luxury class(C/3-E/5) but nothing near the amount of Nissans VQ.
Like Lexus, the V-8 is carry over for Infiniti from the Q45.
Shared Transmission
Lexus just developed its new 6 speed unit for the LS 430, which will be used in the GS (notice it did not come from the ES 330, it was passed down). Most of the competition in the luxury field uses a 6 speed automatic now (Audi, BMW, Lexus, Jag) with Benz having 7 cogs! Infiniti uses a 5 speed automatic carryover from before. Now, I just read a Nissan board, and it seems the M45 transmission is the same one used in the Nissan Armada/Titan and the QX56. Again, this is not 100% confirmed but the guys over there seem pretty sure it is. This saves even more millions of dollars.
Those 3 major components are basically what makes a car and what the automakers actually build. The rest of the car (any car) is built by their suppliers. Suppliers make interiors, wheels, HID lights, lenses, etc etc.
The excess money seems well spent, the interior is the best in any Infiniti ever. Car reviews have all posted though, its not up to Lexus levels yet. The pieces do seem to fit together, as the reviews for the car have been overwhelmingly positive. The car is one to drive! Acceleration times have been great (all sub 6 second), 1/4 mile under 14 and high skidpad results. The M35 hasn't been tested yet but expect similar results (unless the car has really bad 17" tires). What is the cars reliability? Infiniti has been a top 5-quality company from day 1. It’s expected to be well built. How will it hold up, not sure but I haven't seen many complaints of quality from current M4 5 owners.
The M35 is $1,000 to $10,000 less than the competition.
The M45 is $5,000 to $12,000 less than the competition.
Simply amazing And the above explains how Infiniti did it.
Within the next 2-3 months, I intend to drive these cars back to back to give impressions of each and does sharing really matter or does luxury mean specifics and being more rare. Will buyers care? I doubt it, since most are pretty uneducated with what they purchase, not to mention most salesmen. German car owners are getting more and more tired of their expensive, unreliable cars. Now for those that didn't want to jump to Lexus before, they have another choice in the Infiniti M35/45. PRICE will matter here along with having a nice little luxury badge and I fully expect this car to be a success based on its low price (compared to others) more than anything. Ladies and Gentleman, Infiniti has arrived.
SICK
There has been a lot of talk throughout the web on how did Infiniti set their pricing for this car so low. I didn’t really realize how much lower it was until I started this thread. The yen is not at a favorable exchange rate (its been better) so that is not it. CEO Carlos Ghosen is obsessed with profit and making money for Nissan, no way he’s going to sell this car below cost to get into the market. Not his style. So that is not it. So how did they do it?
Here is Infiniti M35/45 pricing
MSRP released for 2006 M:
M35: $39,900
M35 AWD: $42,400
M35 Sport: $42,700
M45: $46,750
M45 Sport: $49,550
Destination (not included): $610
Besides aggressive, that is very low. Here are some comparisons of cars currently on the market:
Acura Rl V-6-MSRP:$48,900.00
Destination: $570.00
Audi A6 3.2 starts at $40,900
Audi A6 4.2 starts at $50,500
BMW 525 MSRP $41,300
BMW 530 MSRP $45,400
BMW 545 MSRP $55,800
Destination & Handling $695
Cadillac STS V-6 Standard-$41,220
STS V-6 luxury/performance-$49,590
STS V-8 Standard=$50,340
STS V-8 luxury/performance-$58,560
Jaguar S-TYPE 3.0: MSRP $44,895
Jaguar S-TYPE 4.2: MSRP $51,995
Jaguar S-TYPE VDP Edition: MSRP $55,295
Lexus GS 300/430
We don't have American pricing. Only Canadian. But we figured the GS would be 2-3k more than the Infiniti M35/45.
ESTIMATE-
$42,000 GS 300
$45,000 for a GS 300 AWD,
$49,000 for a GS 430.
Mercedes Benz-E class
Wonderful surprise, you can get 4Matic (AWD) with the V-6 E320 and V-8 E500 sedan. But look at those prices!
E320- MSRP: $49,220.00
E320 4Matic- starts at MSRP: $51,720.00
E500 RWD $57,620.00
E500-4Matic-$60,120.00
Shared Platform
Clearly, the Infiniti M35/45 is cheaper than the competition without options. How did they do this?
Nissan and Carlos Ghosen are known for cost cutting. That is what turned the company around. Their cars share tons of parts with one another. Nissan might have really outdone themselves (in a positive manner) with this car. For those that don't know, the more expensive a car is from their cheaper platform, the higher the profits. Like a Hummer H2 is a stretched Tahoe chassis. GM makes close to 30k for every Hummer sold. 30k!! A loaded RX 330 is 48k, which is a price far from its Camry platform cousin.
The Infiniti M35/45 is a stretched FM platform. The FM platform is from the 350Z, which spawned many of the new hits from the company. In comparison, the Lexus GS or BMW 5 for example, those are platform specific cars. It costs tens maybe hundreds of millions of dollars more to create a new luxury platform. This new platform is much improved and will spawn the larger cars from Nissan. It also is from a 26k 350Z.
Shared Engine
The Infiniti M35 uses Nissans incredibly versatile and responsive 3.5 VQ engine. This engine is used in;
350Z
FX35
G35s
Murano
Maxima
Altima
Quest
The more engines you produce, the lower the cost. Lexus developed 2 new engines for the GS. The new 3.0 unit in the US GS 300 and the new 3.5 unit used in the Japanese GS 350. So while Lexus spent millions building new engines for their luxury cars, Infiniti simply slaps in an engine in millions of cars. So no money was spent on the M35 engine while Lexus spent millions developing these new powerplants. BMW and Benz does share some of its engines with their entry level class and luxury class(C/3-E/5) but nothing near the amount of Nissans VQ.
Like Lexus, the V-8 is carry over for Infiniti from the Q45.
Shared Transmission
Lexus just developed its new 6 speed unit for the LS 430, which will be used in the GS (notice it did not come from the ES 330, it was passed down). Most of the competition in the luxury field uses a 6 speed automatic now (Audi, BMW, Lexus, Jag) with Benz having 7 cogs! Infiniti uses a 5 speed automatic carryover from before. Now, I just read a Nissan board, and it seems the M45 transmission is the same one used in the Nissan Armada/Titan and the QX56. Again, this is not 100% confirmed but the guys over there seem pretty sure it is. This saves even more millions of dollars.
Those 3 major components are basically what makes a car and what the automakers actually build. The rest of the car (any car) is built by their suppliers. Suppliers make interiors, wheels, HID lights, lenses, etc etc.
The excess money seems well spent, the interior is the best in any Infiniti ever. Car reviews have all posted though, its not up to Lexus levels yet. The pieces do seem to fit together, as the reviews for the car have been overwhelmingly positive. The car is one to drive! Acceleration times have been great (all sub 6 second), 1/4 mile under 14 and high skidpad results. The M35 hasn't been tested yet but expect similar results (unless the car has really bad 17" tires). What is the cars reliability? Infiniti has been a top 5-quality company from day 1. It’s expected to be well built. How will it hold up, not sure but I haven't seen many complaints of quality from current M4 5 owners.
The M35 is $1,000 to $10,000 less than the competition.
The M45 is $5,000 to $12,000 less than the competition.
Simply amazing And the above explains how Infiniti did it.
Within the next 2-3 months, I intend to drive these cars back to back to give impressions of each and does sharing really matter or does luxury mean specifics and being more rare. Will buyers care? I doubt it, since most are pretty uneducated with what they purchase, not to mention most salesmen. German car owners are getting more and more tired of their expensive, unreliable cars. Now for those that didn't want to jump to Lexus before, they have another choice in the Infiniti M35/45. PRICE will matter here along with having a nice little luxury badge and I fully expect this car to be a success based on its low price (compared to others) more than anything. Ladies and Gentleman, Infiniti has arrived.
SICK
Last edited by LexFather; 01-20-05 at 08:56 PM.
01-20-05, 09:23 PM
#2
No options base pricing I would agree with you. I look forward to your next post including options as that will tell the real story on exactly how each car compares to its comparably equiped competition. I would say it will all be fairly close in terms of price/options when it is all said and done (Ecluding the German cars as they are always expensive).
01-21-05, 06:01 AM
#3
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Unfortunately for the buying public, BMW might not share this lower price mentality when it comes to the new 3 series. I mean they platform ***** the 1 series into the 3 series, stick in an upgraded drivetrain and call it good. And all of those ooh-ahh features are available in any old Citroen in Europe already. Lane departure warning in the M is like a big deal - you can get it as an option on plain jane 20K Citroen.
Everyone tries to share parts when possible - it's not like the GS will be the only one using the new V6 - Toyota will ***** that thing into as many vehicles as it can. It's just that Nissan is winning the platform and drivetrain whoring and is choosing to pass on a buck or two to the consumer. They need to cause if all things were equal, at this point the tie would go to the car with the "better" badge.
The 5 series is not more expensive because BMW is making so much more off it, it's more expensive cause they have nothing else to share the cost with. And if one looks at the weight of the car - one realizes where the rest of the money went.
Everyone tries to share parts when possible - it's not like the GS will be the only one using the new V6 - Toyota will ***** that thing into as many vehicles as it can. It's just that Nissan is winning the platform and drivetrain whoring and is choosing to pass on a buck or two to the consumer. They need to cause if all things were equal, at this point the tie would go to the car with the "better" badge.
The 5 series is not more expensive because BMW is making so much more off it, it's more expensive cause they have nothing else to share the cost with. And if one looks at the weight of the car - one realizes where the rest of the money went.
01-21-05, 06:30 AM
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Excellent post Sicklex. Everyone has been complimenting Infiniti for their M pricing and I was not sure it was truly deserved. While I felt their pricing seemed fair, I was not ready to call it a "steal." You post was very informative. Seeing all the cars in the class, I feel fortunate to have narrowed my choice to the M or the Lexus GS. Seeing as I have only ruled out the AWD M and AWD GS, this will keep me plenty busy with test drives in March (4 M's and 2 GS's).
I am so anxious to see these cars in person. The test drives are sure to make it clear to me whether I want the 6 or 8 cylinder, and in the M's case, whether I will go with the Sport model.
I am so anxious to see these cars in person. The test drives are sure to make it clear to me whether I want the 6 or 8 cylinder, and in the M's case, whether I will go with the Sport model.
01-21-05, 07:52 AM
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GS Prices Are Way OFF.
Originally Posted by marcpitch
Excellent post Sicklex. Everyone has been complimenting Infiniti for their M pricing and I was not sure it was truly deserved. While I felt their pricing seemed fair, I was not ready to call it a "steal." You post was very informative. Seeing all the cars in the class, I feel fortunate to have narrowed my choice to the M or the Lexus GS. Seeing as I have only ruled out the AWD M and AWD GS, this will keep me plenty busy with test drives in March (4 M's and 2 GS's).
I am so anxious to see these cars in person. The test drives are sure to make it clear to me whether I want the 6 or 8 cylinder, and in the M's case, whether I will go with the Sport model.
I am so anxious to see these cars in person. The test drives are sure to make it clear to me whether I want the 6 or 8 cylinder, and in the M's case, whether I will go with the Sport model.
01-21-05, 07:52 AM
#6
Racer
Great write up 1SICKLEX but I ‘am sure Toyota and Honda will make the same move if they could or already. Just the other day I was reading a thread where a guy was comparing the LS430 VS the BMW745IL. He complained that some of the LS430 ***** were similar to the ***** in a Toyota Avalon. It's all about who can make the most money.
01-21-05, 07:53 AM
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There are some good points in your post. Infiniti has priced the lowest M at the ending point of a top level G35, which is very smart. Platform sharing can work out exceptionally if you have the right parts to start with. The VQ35DE engine is award winning as are their cars based on the FM platform. The FM-L used in the Infiniti M is 60% stiffer and the VQ35DE engine is better than ever. They are pricing themselves below the competition and are offering a car that has performed better than expected. Buyers don't care where the parts come from as long as the end-product is exceptional. This formula has worked for Lexus better than anyone since 1989.
I remember when the G35 sedan first came out, a lot of people thought it was ugly and didn't like the low-rent interior. I still think that it isn't the greatest looking sedan out there or doesn't have the nicest interior, but it has been a smashing success because it actually performed awsome, won comparison tests, awards, and was priced right. It is also backed by Infiniti reliability and customer service second only to Lexus. This time, the Infiniti M actually looks good inside and out, and its performance is outstanding as well.
I think that Carlos Ghosen is making the consumer the real winner here.
I remember when the G35 sedan first came out, a lot of people thought it was ugly and didn't like the low-rent interior. I still think that it isn't the greatest looking sedan out there or doesn't have the nicest interior, but it has been a smashing success because it actually performed awsome, won comparison tests, awards, and was priced right. It is also backed by Infiniti reliability and customer service second only to Lexus. This time, the Infiniti M actually looks good inside and out, and its performance is outstanding as well.
I think that Carlos Ghosen is making the consumer the real winner here.
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01-21-05, 08:03 AM
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The 2006 GS AWD will Start At 41,400 without taxes ETC. The GS 430 Will BE loaded At 54,000.
Jarett.... where did u come upwith those numbers? Im looking at the AWD price you have - and im like..wow if they offer that for that much - i think ill just step up to the AWD instead of the base RWD...lol
That would put the RWD at like 38-39K?
I dont see that happening, bro. Id LOVE to see that be true...
but i think its a little wishful thinking =)
Jarett.... where did u come upwith those numbers? Im looking at the AWD price you have - and im like..wow if they offer that for that much - i think ill just step up to the AWD instead of the base RWD...lol
That would put the RWD at like 38-39K?
I dont see that happening, bro. Id LOVE to see that be true...
but i think its a little wishful thinking =)
01-21-05, 08:11 AM
#9
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Thank you everyone for the kind comments.
Here is Infiniti Dealer info on the M35/45
http://www.autospies.com/NEWSLETTERS...rderguide2.pdf
Here is Infiniti Dealer info on the M35/45
http://www.autospies.com/NEWSLETTERS...rderguide2.pdf
01-21-05, 09:31 AM
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Sure, Nissan uses tweaked versions of the VQ engine in all its V6 cars and trucks. No doubt it leads to cost-cutting, some of which is passed on to consumers.
Toyota CHOSE to put an all new 3.0L in the GS300 instead of the 3.5L in the Avalon and the Japanese GS350. Why, I dunno. In any case, the fact that the GS300 has an engine that is yet unshared by other Toyotas doesn't make it somehow "better" thatn the M35 VQ that is used in many other cars.
BTW, BMW uses the same 3.0L inline six in almost EVERY one of their models.
330i
330i Coupe/Convertible
530i
630i
730i (overseas)
Z3 3.0
X3 3.0
X5 3.0
----------------------
No doubt about it, part of the reason that Infiniti can keep prices down is b/c of platform and engine sharing, which is a good thing IMO. I could care less that the M35's platform and engine are tweaked versions of the Z's platform and engine, as long as the platform and engine are good and serve the M's purposes well.
Toyota CHOSE to put an all new 3.0L in the GS300 instead of the 3.5L in the Avalon and the Japanese GS350. Why, I dunno. In any case, the fact that the GS300 has an engine that is yet unshared by other Toyotas doesn't make it somehow "better" thatn the M35 VQ that is used in many other cars.
BTW, BMW uses the same 3.0L inline six in almost EVERY one of their models.
330i
330i Coupe/Convertible
530i
630i
730i (overseas)
Z3 3.0
X3 3.0
X5 3.0
----------------------
No doubt about it, part of the reason that Infiniti can keep prices down is b/c of platform and engine sharing, which is a good thing IMO. I could care less that the M35's platform and engine are tweaked versions of the Z's platform and engine, as long as the platform and engine are good and serve the M's purposes well.
Last edited by jrock65; 01-21-05 at 09:36 AM.
01-21-05, 09:36 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by jrock65
Why, I dunno. In any case, the fact that the GS300 has an engine that is yet unshared by other Toyotas doesn't make it somehow "better" thatn the M35 VQ that is used in many other cars.
01-21-05, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by flipside909
That's a false statement, 3GR-FSE is also used in the Crown Athlete in Japan.
01-21-05, 09:45 AM
#13
Lexus Connoisseur
Yeah it was released on the Toyota Crown Athlete before the GS came out.
01-21-05, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jrock65
Sure, Nissan uses tweaked versions of the VQ engine in all its V6 cars and trucks. No doubt it leads to cost-cutting, some of which is passed on to consumers.
Toyota CHOSE to put an all new 3.0L in the GS300 instead of the 3.5L in the Avalon and the Japanese GS350. Why, I dunno. In any case, the fact that the GS300 has an engine that is yet unshared by other Toyotas doesn't make it somehow "better" thatn the M35 VQ that is used in many other cars.
BTW, BMW uses the same 3.0L inline six in almost EVERY one of their models.
330i
330i Coupe/Convertible
530i
630i
730i (overseas)
Z3 3.0
X3 3.0
X5 3.0
----------------------
No doubt about it, part of the reason that Infiniti can keep prices down is b/c of platform and engine sharing, which is a good thing IMO. I could care less that the M35's platform and engine are tweaked versions of the Z's platform and engine, as long as the platform and engine are good and serve the M's purposes well.
Toyota CHOSE to put an all new 3.0L in the GS300 instead of the 3.5L in the Avalon and the Japanese GS350. Why, I dunno. In any case, the fact that the GS300 has an engine that is yet unshared by other Toyotas doesn't make it somehow "better" thatn the M35 VQ that is used in many other cars.
BTW, BMW uses the same 3.0L inline six in almost EVERY one of their models.
330i
330i Coupe/Convertible
530i
630i
730i (overseas)
Z3 3.0
X3 3.0
X5 3.0
----------------------
No doubt about it, part of the reason that Infiniti can keep prices down is b/c of platform and engine sharing, which is a good thing IMO. I could care less that the M35's platform and engine are tweaked versions of the Z's platform and engine, as long as the platform and engine are good and serve the M's purposes well.
No one said anything about it being better. Also why they chose to stay with a 3.0 and have the 3.5 in Japan, is a mystery. I did state that luxury=rarity and the new 3.0 will be much rarer than the VQ. Will most buyers care? No.
BMW offers 2 engines here in the 3 and 4 overseas. There is also a 320 and a 320d (diesal). And your comparing apples to oranges, BMW engines shared are shared with BMWs. Not Minis.
And you might be okay with all the sharing, some people might not be.
