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Not a lot of news other than I did manage to track down the obd1 lower runner, actually just picked up the entire intake. Ordered all the needed gaskets from Toyota which should arrive tomorrow. Still waiting on the cps to show up in the mail, and still need injectors. Other than that everything is finally ready to go. The car was dropped off at the shop yesterday to be torn apart. At this point the objective is to get everything running properly with the new ecu, cop setup, and then the engine comes out for the tt head gasket and arp studs. Will also freshen everything else up with the engine while it's out.
Just realized that I've now had this car for over a year. I was so hoping to be much further along than this by now, but it's been one thing after another with this project, not to mention that it really starts adding up gathering all the needed parts. Still determined to get it done though. I wonder what I'll be saying this time next year...
Went a little bit off script yesterday and picked up a fantastic deal on the Boost logic intercooler piping kit for HiPSI -- awesome guy btw!. Still need a bunch of parts to complete the NA-T, but at the very least some of these hard to source parts are now on there way to my closet. There are a few build threads that I have been following since I first joined this site, and HiPSI's was one of my favorites. I was so happy to be able to purchase at least some of his high quality parts.
Don't sweat the timeline it took me 5 years to get my car where its at! One thing I learned that I think applies to all builds is take it one step at a time. Iron out the quirks, make sure it's 100%, and then you have a good base for troubleshooting the next mod. When I initially modded the car I threw all these awesome parts on it at once combined with AEM V2 EMS which complicated things further. The JDM GTE ecu was such a user friendly mod that it allowed me to enjoy the car again without the tuning woes of an EMS without a local tuner.
Turbo / FMIC / Manifold are all easy. What normally is the issue is tuning / ECU. I have a feeling the OBD2 GTE ecu and maf will be the biggest hurtle. Once that is smoothly running it should be all downhill, bolting the turbo setup on isn't difficult at all. Drilling the oil pan is probably the biggest pain.
Don't sweat the timeline it took me 5 years to get my car where its at! One thing I learned that I think applies to all builds is take it one step at a time.
What normally is the issue is tuning / ECU. I have a feeling the OBD2 GTE ecu and maf will be the biggest hurtle.
I can see how it takes so long to complete one of these projects. I truly had no idea what I was in for when I started this. The car has been parked for what seems forever now. At least my parts pile is growing. In fact many members here and sf might recognize most of them. Someday I'll have to create a thank you post for all the great deals everyone has given me to help me complete this project. It would have cost me 2-3x if not for these forums and that would have been an absolute non-starter.
Last years pile of parts:
TT Auto torsen
brembo bbk
bc coilovers
ss lines
supra seats
steering rack and bushings
strut bar
mkiv rear subframe with all new suspension and bushings
supra seats
r888
3 sets of hoosier r1's for the track
vertex ridge widebody kit
Electronics
Oside Tiger 550cc injectors & clips
USDM Gforce ecu -- not using it now
JDM Supra 6sp ecu
mapecu 2
fields harness
vvti coilpacks + harness + igniter
7mcps
tt map sensor + pigtail
oil pressure, fuel pressure, boost gauges
aem failsafe
gm iat
Toyota oem temp sensor
Engine rebuild parts
GTE Head gasket
arp studs
gates timing belt
Misc
Greddy catch can
obd1 lower runner -- replace my obd2
obd1 throttle body -- replace my obd2
After HiPsi's comment above spent a couple of weeks and read every post in the Ali's tt ecu thread (yeah all 225 pages) so that I could better understand what he was saying about the USDM ecu upgrade. One thing I learned is I am NOT going to be the next guinea pig with USDM, that idea is not going to happen as it seems NO ONE ever managed to get it working reliably.
I purchased a JDM Supra 6sp ecu and will figure out what I'm going to do with the GForce USDM ecu some other time. I feel like it's a waste not to use it as I know of the car it came from and it was a beast.
Obviously I am missing a lot of components so the collecting will continue as I want to make sure everything is in hand before I tear the car apart. The hard part is deciding where to stop before I'd just be better off buying one of Gerrb's monsters. I passed the 10k mark some time ago and I'm afraid that I'm not even close, and if I want it on our local track, well then I'm not even in the ballpark.
I received the t4 locking studs today so I was able to check the turbo placement on the manifold for the first time and I noticed that while I can clock the turbo with no problem, it does touch the 1st runner of the manifold. The picture below shows the small area where contact is made. It won't effect placement of the turbo for fitting the cold pipes, but I am concerned about heat.
I am going to assume that this is not good and needs to be adjusted prior to installation. I see 3 possible options.
add a t4 spacer to raise the turbo much like a qsv would do
hammer the first runner down about 1/4"
cut and reweld in a new 1st runner pipe so that it bends further down
The problems I see are if I add a t4 spacer, then I 'may' have some problems with clearing the intake pipe. I won't know that for sure until I am long into the project. If I hammer down the first runner a little, then I assume I am going to mess with proper air flow which I am guessing is bad. Cutting and welding in a new 1st runner seems the best option unless re-welding a manifold is a bad idea.
The prior owner of the manifold was running a 6266 where I am running a 6766. While I thought the casings would be the same size, it seems they must not be as it fit just fine on his build. I don't expect to run into clearance issues on the hot side as we both used a 66 hot side.
I am in no hurry on this project and would just like to know the best course of action here. Any advice?
Spacer will be your best bet provided you can still close the hood . That will enable you to clock the compressor housing properly for your IC piping.
Set and fix your goal on what you want the car for so you know exactly up to where you should stop. These projects are a never ending expenditures . We tend to change our mind when we see something better and we get some money in our pockets. That is why they become money pits.
You have said that you have passed the 10k mark . Is that on parts gathering or that includes the cost of the car ? It can definitely become costly quick .
Spacer will be your best bet provided you can still close the hood . That will enable you to clock the compressor housing properly for your IC piping.
I'll go ahead and pick up a couple of different height spacers to try it out then. I don't expect problems closing the hood as the manifold does place the turbo a bit further down than most. Where the problem could come into play is on the hotside as I am using the stock intake manifold. It could place the hotside a bit to close to the intake. Really no way of knowing until I reach that stage. I'm still on the hunt for an actual boost logic manifold at a decent price. If/when one shows up then I will swap this one. I just needed something to get started with and there are very few choices available for the ge.
Originally Posted by gerrb
Set and fix your goal on what you want the car for so you know exactly up to where you should stop. These projects are a never ending expenditures . We tend to change our mind when we see something better and we get some money in our pockets. That is why they become money pits.
This is by far the hardest part. It all started when I watched James Hart's video last year.
I then went down to our local circuit track and watched Lou run his Supra and I was hooked. I say it's hard because figuring out how to build something that can run at near max performance non-stop for an hour or more at a time is a daunting task. While duplicating the suspension and brake setup was rather easy to figure out, how to build the power train to handle it is an entirely different case. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that it would be much harder to build something that can basically stay between 4k-8k rpm for an hour vs. a 2x hp build on a dyno for a few seconds. While there are hundreds of great dyno builds, there are very few informative threads on a circuit setup.
Originally Posted by gerrb
You have said that you have passed the 10k mark . Is that on parts gathering or that includes the cost of the car ? It can definitely become costly quick .
In fairness a lot of what I purchased is not necessary for a standard NA-T build. The suspension and brembo bbk kit from last year was around 3k, torsen 1k, tires and extra rims 1k, ridge kit 500, pile of parts above around 4k, interior refresh around 500, not going to even count the 2k in tuneups labor etc. I'm figuring there is probably another 2k minimum in parts to finish the NA-T portion. (still need injectors, pumps, lines, wastegate, bov, exhaust, tons of little parts, gaskets, etc)
If I need to go into the engine beyond the water pump, oil pump, tensioner, dampener, gaskets and valve seals, well then all bets are off and I have no idea where I will end up. At the very least I cannot see spending less than another 1k, and that is without any toys like cams, valve springs, etc.
Transmission clutch and driveshaft route is still undecided. The r154 seems like the obvious choice but the leaking at the seals around 600hp is rolling the dice. I would prefer the cd009 but not willing to jump on it until the clutch setup is sorted. The v160, well that may require a second job. I have some time before I have to make this decision and the choice will probably come down to how well I accomplish the rest of the project. (price estimates include trans, clutch, driveshaft, etc)
R154 (2-3k)
cd009 (4-5k)
v160 (7-10k)
Finally there is the whole 'track setup' portion where it could potentially get out of control. With my power goals I am sure that a cage is going to be required. Then we start talking fire suppression setups, fuel cells, swirl tank, modified suspension setups, penske etc.. That is the point where I will have to get real with the project and decide whether or not I want to spend the required funds to get out on the track where I can actually compete with Lou. Damn guy just decided to upgrade the v160 to a sequential 6sp... arghh making it tough to keep up.
Notice I am leaving out any labor charges. Other than machine work on the engine if needed, the plan is to try and accomplish most everything on my own with the help of a few friends and the information I have gained from this forum and sf. If I had to pay a shop to do everything then there would be zero justification as I truly would be into supra $$$ levels on an sc chassis which I am trying to avoid. I'm sure though that there is going to be a fair amount in labor no matter how hard I try this on my own.
I'm sure there is a bunch of stuff that I am missing, but this is the best I have come up with. It would be hard to source all the parts for much less than I have spent without going with ebay junk. I just don't see how it is possible to build something that is safe, reliable, can go around corners, and stop properly for under 20k on this platform. More realistically I am assuming it will come out closer to 25-30k, but that is just a guess. Body kit has to be installed, body work and paint. Even with a friends labor, the supplies are still going to cost a fair amount.
So yeah, anyone coming here and wanting to build it right, should just give up and buy one of your cars. I don't even want to venture a guess what the black mamba would cost to have built. Maybe my car will grow up to become the baby-black-mamba
In my opinion, if one has to spend +$20k .. .he should have at least a V160 6speed with a 2jzgte on that car . He can get the JDM 2jzgte V160 6speed swap for $9k . At $15k that should be running at least stock . Then build from there since he already have a very solid base to start with.
When you say dyno builds , you are probably referring to drag cars that need a lot of power and are used for a few seconds on the drag strip. For me , more thought and precision should be put into their builds compared to the road racing cars that do not need as much power. Drive trains / power trains of drag cars are pushed to their limit even if they are only used for a few seconds. Easier to break a component on a drag car than a road racing car.
That is why every car should be built accordingly based on its purpose otherwise it won't last long for their intended use which will be a waste of money.You can build a street driven car that has +1000rwhp and be able to take it on a 12 hour trip . Then you can say it was a well built car. Having so much power doesn't mean it should always be used. It is there when it is needed though .
gerrb builds amazing cars... i'm guessing he starts out with a well defined plan of attack. Or maybe he just dreams it, writes it down, makes it a goal, devises a plan, and chips away at it until he has exactly what he wants! Looks like you are doing that.
That being said, I am sitting on a 97 sc300 that I am trying to decide na-t or 2jzgte... in the end, i know the 2jzgte will be a more expensive start but a much more capable base. I just have to decide if I use the vvti gte I have sitting here or if I pony up the dough for the non-vvti v160 swap... decisions decisions.
My point, just make a plan and stick to it. There are a lot of choices out there but to avoid over spending, write it all down. and then remember that things will come up to add to that. but don't stray from your main goal. plan plan plan plan. If i learned anything with building cars (and i've built a few) it is always best to plan ahead. I have a white board in my garage with "to-do" list. sometimes i cross off 2-3 things in a week and other times it's 1 thing in 2-3 weeks or more.
Anyway, good luck with the build, i've enjoyed reading it thus far!
In my opinion, if one has to spend +$20k .. .he should have at least a V160 6speed with a 2jzgte on that car . He can get the JDM 2jzgte V160 6speed swap for $9k . At $15k that should be running at least stock . .
The scary part to me, is that combination is still a very possible outcome for me. Virtually everything I have purchased would be used on either setup. I spent the first year fixing everything, then suspension, brakes, steering, etc... I wanted the safest, best handling chassis that I could afford to start with. I know most people here jump turbo first, but I really wanted to make sure that I would enjoy the way the car drove before I went for power. Backwards, probably, but I don't regret it as I fell in love with the sc after first hating it. (Prior owner almost ruined the car)
I wasn't trying to put down the dyno builds. I can't even imagine the science that goes into building a reliable 1k car. That is way beyond anything I aspire to. I was mostly referring to the numerous dyno builds that hit crazy numbers and go kaboom due to not thinking it through first. I read every one of your posts here and try to soak everything up so that I can learn from you what works best.
If it was not for you, ali, hipsi, and a few others, I would have dumped the car the first month. It was only after reading your threads, asking lots of questions, and spending a bit of money to see it for myself that kept me here and I am glad I stayed.
The best part about you guys to me is that you fully understand that we don't even know the right questions to be asking when we first come here, yet you are still patient to let us learn.
I just have to decide if I use the vvti gte I have sitting here or if I pony up the dough for the non-vvti v160 swap... decisions decisions.
always start in knowing the end goal for your project ... car's use , then buy parts and build it having in mind that end goal .
If you have the VVTi engine .. use it . The VVTi head will give you better torque especially down low where we spend most of the time driving the car. VVti aftermarket parts have come a long way so there is no reason why you will prefer the non vvti . Then grab a V160 6speed if that is the transmission you want.
Originally Posted by scblackout
I was mostly referring to the numerous dyno builds that hit crazy numbers and go kaboom due to not thinking it through first. I read every one of your posts here and try to soak everything up so that I can learn from you what works best.
If it was not for you, ali, hipsi, and a few others, I would have dumped the car the first month. It was only after reading your threads, asking lots of questions, and spending a bit of money to see it for myself that kept me here and I am glad I stayed.
The best part about you guys to me is that you fully understand that we don't even know the right questions to be asking when we first come here, yet you are still patient to let us learn.
In a performance build ,we put together a lot of parts hoping they will perform properly together. Exactly the reason why I said , always start knowing perfectly what is your end goal or purpose for the car then collect parts that will support that goal so parts are reliable for that intended goal.... not the other way round , colllecting parts .. putting them together and hoping they will hold up . That is how a drivetrain goes kaboom. Every part has its max limit of use so knowing your end goal , one has to make sure that he gets the part that more than support the end goal.
It is a pleasure to be able to help other people. I have been in many people's situation ... being fooled. Many people in this business pretend to help or are good in front of you but behind you they are pieces of sh?t .. All they care is how much money they will make from you. Nobody will take care of your interests better that you will. Exactly the reason why I decided to document my builds ... to encourage others. I am not a mechanic nor did I ever wrench before . Till I was in a bad situation and decided that if I am not doing my own work , I am not playing with these toys. Just plain determination brought me there .... forced to learn and be around good friends who are not just after your money and forcing to do it myself.
IF you think you will end up spending over $20k in parts ... you might as well start with a $9k JDM 2jzgte V160 swap. Perfect starting base for a reliable engine and transmission setup. Get it running and build from there.
Good Luck and am sure one day you will be able to bring your car wherever you want it to be with determination.
It looks like you have the larger 3" outlet 6766 compressor housing. You can purchase a 2.5" outlet version that is smaller overall and still has the anti-surge housing. I would post up a trade / swap thread or sale thread for the housing itself on supraforums and then call precision and order a factory replacement. This should give you a few mm to work with gapping that compressor housing from the #1 runner.
I ran into this same issue when I pieced together my kit. I wanted to run the stock intake manifold but my initial turbine housing was to tall and would not clear the stock throttle body. I ended up selling my 1.00 divided housing and purchased a .81 T4 open housing and that did the trick but it was still close and required a turbo blanket to keep heat away from the upper IC piping. I had a xspower turbo manifold and 6265 which is the same physical outside size as the 6266 / 6766/ 6466 / 6870. If the borg warners for easier to fit I would of gone with one of those but you are working with larger compressor housings and turbine housings.
The other option is to go with a FFIM intake manifold setup but I don't think you should dive into that right away, the stock intake is plenty power capable.
I mentioned last week that I was giving up on the USDM NA-T route and ordered a JDM Supra 6sp ecu. Well it arrived today. I did pull the cover and all the caps look good. I am going to try the ecu as is, and if it works, then I will send it in to get the caps replaced just to be sure that it will last in the long run.
The only parts I need to source now are the fuel injectors, and I am assuming a new fuel pump. I've read a few places that it is possible to use the mkiv fuel ecu and the supra fuel pump in the sc without much hassle.
My goal for the moment is to get the car running on the new JDM setup and only after it runs properly will I upgrade the fuel system. I could use a little advice on the best fuel setup to purchase. I know that the JDM Supras came with 440cc injectors, but I am having a very hard time finding brand new replacements that will work on the 92-94 OBD1 lower rail. I could go with 550cc, but then I have to use the mapecu2, and at first I would just rather have a totally stock setup for troubleshooting.
If anyone has advice on the best possible 440cc setup, I would appreciate any input you could provide. If 440cc's aren't really available new, then I can go with the 550cc and the mapecu.
I'm also unsure of the best fuel pump setup for keeping it simple at first. Once again, if anyone has any links to provide, I would really appreciate it.
I'll order whatever is needed this week with the goal of finally tearing the car apart next weekend as the weather is supposed to be fantastic. I'm pretty sure that I have everything else needed to at least get the cop/fuel setup with the new JDM ecu. I'll pull the engine after all is working to install the turbo setup. It just makes sense to me to approach this like HiPsi did where he got everything working prior to the turbo install. Besides, still missing a few parts to complete the turbo project.
Trying to find new 440cc injectors turned out to be futile so I followed Ali's advice and purchased the same new Oside tiger 550cc injectors that he is using in his setup. The kit seems to be well packed and complete including the clips.
I wasn't able to track down a tt fuel pump in time to tear the car apart this weekend but hope to have one in my hands next week. Other than figuring out what relay to use for the fuel and a few gaskets, I believe that I have managed to track down all the parts I will need for the tt ecu/cop setup.
While I have not posted in months, I have been very busy reading build threads and talking to numerous people about the positives and negatives of their build choices. One fact kept hitting over and over again, and that is that the entire build will basically revolve around my choice of transmission and clutch. I know it sounds strange that the transmission would be the primary factor in choosing build components, but in the end it just makes sense.
After a lot of deliberation I finally made the choice to go with an mc built soarer tripod r154. I've talked to probably a half dozen people running this setup and without exception they all seem very happy with the cost vs. performance and reliability, especially when adding the drift motion and martin crawler upgrades. I only wish I had made the decision months ago as I missed out on CatMan's package deal which would have saved me a lot of money in the end. Someone got a fantastic deal on that setup.
I didn't want to buy directly from mc as the cost would have then jumped up into the ballpark of the magnum, and I didn't want to purchase an 'unknown' mc trans from ebay etc, as there would be no real way of knowing if it was done right. Instead I chose to find a solid r154 as a foundation and decided to build it myself.
I started by disassembling the trans prior to purchase to make sure all the gears and internal parts were solid and they were. Now it is just waiting for the dm/mc parts order for final assembly. I will also need to find a 1jz flywheel and bellhousing.
The final piece of the puzzle will be the clutch. From what I have read it seems that everyone who used the os giken carbon twin disk absolutely loved it. I've read both opinions on the spec setup so not sure on that option. I am going to assume that figuring out the best clutch setup is going to take me a lot of time, but as the trans will take some time to rebuild, I will have more than ample time to do more research. I want a clutch that can easily handle 500-550ftlbs and yet still be comfortable on the street so if anyone has any advice to offer I am definitely open to hearing it.
I realize that this build is rather boring and basic compared to most others here, but I am really happy with how it is coming along. While I don't have a v160 or a magnum, I do believe that what I am putting together will in the end become a rather stable and fun to drive street/track combination. I won't have to worry about my w58 blowing itself apart, and it really sets a limit on how much I will refresh/rebuild the motor as there is no point in even trying to build for more than 600-700hp as that is the 'safe' limit of the trans.
02-07-16, 12:05 PM
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