CRowe14

To everyone here..a good day to you!
I have been and am usually so self immersed in the LS forum that not until very recent, I decided to mosey my way over the Detailing area of the forum and do some reading. I would like to simply second the OP regarding not just these sub forums but the entire site! Its mainly due to this site that I felt comfortable (information and very, VERY informative members) that sealed my comfort level regarding the recent purchase of my first Lexus.
Initially only concerning myself with the possible mechanical issues, I realized that upon obtaining this vehicle, the leather was of that of a quality which I never owned in the past, and the exterior...well...I figured that would need upkeep and attention as well! But I was clueless. I thought my past practices of using whatever car wash sop was on sale and using AutoZone MF towels-5 for $3 were good enough to dry the car as well as wax it, and the occasional drive through car wash would be ok.
Boy..was I wrong!
After reading through this thread and recently exchanging with an obviously very knowledgeable, kind and very informative Mr. ZMcGovern4, a world of car care and detail has been introduced to me. And for that, I am very thankful!
Amidst a PM session between Zack and myself, I asked him a number or "loaded" questions which he attentively addressed with great detail. This time around, I figured why bog Zack with my loaded questions when I can post it in the open and crack open this can of worms amidst the forum! I like to understand things and figure there has to be a logic behind things that occur, especially when issues can be remedied. Just a cause/effect/fix thing...
My question:
Though I can understand the initial logic of why auto/drive through car washes cause so much damage, I still don't completely understand why the do so much harm.
From swirls to scratches (sometimes pretty deep ones) to the water stains (and I wasn't aware that water spots could form inside of the car). I've heard of the swirls being referred to as spider webs...how does that happen? And from what I've seen, it can happen with just ONE WASH!!??
The water stains: This may be an ignorant question, but usually the blowers blow off a majority of the water, especially on wide open surfaces like the hood, roof and trunk, yet I have water stains on my car in these exact areas. Why?? I haven't owned my car long, but I imagine perhaps the previous owner didn't always dry off remaining water ??
Again, im sorry if im asking something that has already been answered, I just figured this question would spark some further interesting banter and shed some light on a topic that seems to be an on going subject of discussion: Car Care and Detailing!

FSportIS

iTrader: (13)

Wow, first and foremost reading your post, you are very good at writing. I really like the way you word it. It is like I'm reading a post from a English professor. It is a compliment.

Zach is the man when it comes to detailing and I have personally learned from him a whole lot. I consider him as my master. Based on my learning and experience, I pass down and share what I know to the community and that is why I'm on here quite often.

Anyways, to address your questions, I'll do it on a technical level like an engineer does because yes I'm an engineer .

Swirl/minor scratch:
Root cause:
Some of of physical abrasion. If the dirt/dust that makes contact with the paint and being slid and moved around the paint, it is essentially physical abrasion. The degree of that abrasion depends on the pressure and also friction. The higher the pressure, and the higher the friction, the more abrasion you have. Alright, back to science 101, if a material A is harder than material B, material A can scratch material B. Make sense right? dirt/dust/whatever that junk is a lot of time is harder than the paint. Therefore, when the machine is slapping the car with those clothes, it is inserting pressure as well as friction that create physical abrasion of the dirt/dust/whatever that junk is on your car to the paint. That is why you will see swirl mark because of:
1. Crazy pressure of the machine slapping your car
2. Those clothes that slapping your car is used to wash so many cars for however many months that no one knows so the dirtiness of it is unimaginable.
3. The high friction of those clothes that slaps your car. They are controlled by machine without any sensitivity so it just literally rubs your paint like a mad man.
4. The strong solution they use there will harm or even strip off your paint wax or sealant due to not being Ph neutral (ph of 7 is neutral).

Real world experience:
1. Take whatever microfiber towel you have even the super high end ones, put some water on it, and try to clean your car paint when it id dusty or dirty. You will see swirl on paint due to the reason above.
2. My IS250 and IS350 went through the the swirling machines in the dealership and all end up with swirl and some deep scratches.

To prevent swirl mark, we have to decrease the intensity of physical abrasion between the dust/dirt vs. the paint. Make sense? How?
There are 3 ways:
1. Work clean! 2 bucket wash, rinse the wash mitt often blah blah blah that detailers are preaching about. Why? That is essentially lower the amount of dirt/dust/junks that create physical abrasion against paint.

2. Lower the pressure of abrasion. That is why we use "light" pressure washing our car and not the crazy machine slapping bang bang bang like a mad man.

3. Lower the friction. Car shampoo creates lubrication and that is why it helps a lot!

--------------------------------------------------
Now, let's talk about water spotting.

Root cause: Hard water has more than H20 because it contains a variety of other minerals. Liquid evaporates while solid will not. When H20 all evaporates, guess what, the minerals in hard water are left behind. These minerals depositing on the car paint is what we refer as water spot.

Ok that is not the end of the story yet. These minerals can chemically react with the paint because you know stuff like to react with stuff like our chemistry teacher used to tell us right. Under the hot sun with enough heat, that chemical reaction itself speeds up. Guess what, the minerals etch into the car paint. This is what detailers called "below the surface contaminants". Well if it is below the car paint, the only fix is to remove it physically and detailers call this "polishing" which is essentially remove and level the paint by a tiny super thin amount.

Alright, how can washing machine create water spots inside the car. Hey, when they wash the car, some of the water can "sneak" in passing through the crevices of the doors. Yeah? Now when they dry the car, do people dry the inside too. More often than not, they do not. Therefore, when the water evaporates, guess what, you are left with minerals that is water spot! That is why when i wash my own cars, I also dry the inside as well.

I hope I provide you a very thorough explanation.

zmcgovern4

iTrader: (2)

Automotive paint is incredibly sensitive. Due to the high gloss finish, any minor imperfection is easily visible, and therefore the utmost care must be taken to reduce the chances of creating these imperfections. Notice I said reduce, not eliminate... it is nearly impossible to completely maintain a swirl/mar free surface, however you can follow the proper procedures that will greatly reduce the risks and therefore keep your vehicle looking great for much longer.

Automatic Washes (the kind with the spinny brushes/cloth things) should obviously be avoided. These spinning swirl-o-matics contain dirt and debris from all of the other vehicles, combined with the dirt/debris that is already on your car, so when they are rubbed against your car these particles will create micro-scratches (swirls) in your paint.

Touchless Washes (the kind that simply spray wash the car, then blow dry) are okay, but they are still not the best choice. These types of washes remove a good portion of the dirt from your car without any scrubbing, brushing, rubbing, etc. This is clearly a safer way to clean the surface, however it should be known that the paint is not completely clean, and the harsh chemicals used can in fact degrade or completely remove wax or sealants from your paint leaving your paint without the important layer of protection it needs.

Full Service Washes... I mean the kind that take the car through an auto wash of some sort and then a person is waiting at the end to dry the car. These have several issues... if the establishment uses a touchless wash and then towel dries, there is still dirt on the surface (since touchless washes do not remove everything) that is then being rubbed dry along the paint. Also, these establishments use sub par towels that are not cared for, and the combo of crappy towels and a surface with dirt on it certainly leads to scratches. If the establishment uses a tunnel wash, then that also causes damage for the reasons explained above.


This video shows an experiment done by a professional detailer who wanted to see just how easy it was to damage perfectly polished paint. He simply went to a coin-op power wash and used the car wash brush on his paint, and after just one wash, there were tons of scratches. Check it out.



You may also find my article about dealership washes interesting. This article features a Club Lexus member who had his vehicle washed by a dealership even though they were instructed not to. He is a detailer, and his paint was in great shape beforehand... check out what one dealership wash did to his paint.
The Real Cost of a Cheap Car Wash - Zach McGovern



The best way to avoid swirl marks is to learn how to properly wash and dry your vehicle.
How to Properly Wash & Dry a Car



Hard water is something most of us have to deal with. Hard water contains minerals which is what creates the spotting on the surface. If hard water is left on the surface, the water will evaporate, but the minerals will remain on the surface which creates the rings known as water spots. These mineral deposits will establish a very durable bond with the paint, and overtime can even eat through the paint causing severe and in some cases permanent damage.

It is important to always wash & dry your vehicle unless you are using de-ionized or spotless water. Any water containing minerals can be very dangerous when allowed to dry on the surface.

I am currently writing a couple of articles about water spots, how to prevent them, and how to remove them. They will be on the DI AAP Blog in the future.


Hope that helps

-Zach

zmcgovern4

iTrader: (2)

Looks like Kevin beat me to it... all great info there.

Just to clarify, I believe when he says "inside the car", he is referring to door jams.. not the interior of the vehicle.

You can clearly see the water spot damage inside the jam of this lexus GX.



These were lightly etched into the paint and required machine polishing to remove.






To demonstrate how much damage water spots can do, check out the spotting on this Mazda CX7.


The right side shows the condition of the paint after it had been properly cleaned and decontaminated. These spots were truly stuck on the paint. The left side has undergone a 2 step correction process starting with a heavy cutting compound and then a finishing polish. You'll notice that several water spots were too deep to safely remove.. this vehicle had particularly thin paint (<75 microns) and therefore we were not comfortable pursuing any further correction. This can be considered permanent damage... however, as you can see, the difference is incredibly dramatic, and the remaining few spots were nearly invisible except under lighting conditions like what is shown in the photo.


-Zach

CRowe14

Good Sir:
The compliments you've expressed are humbling as well as graciously appreciated! I always felt that in order to effectively express yourself, it is important to communicate in a clear and concise manner. Navigating ones way amidst the human vocabulary never negatively impacted anyone either!
With that said, i'd like to further add, that the fact that you and Mr. McGovern are so well read/written, makes it that much more comprehendible and enjoyable. So-ditto to you my friend!
As you two gentleman are, I am an engineer myself. I attribute the apparent attention to detail, cause and effect variables pertaining to the actual science of car detailing-more so, paint correction, in conjunction with the pure element of enjoyment you get from doing this and obtaining stellar results, is what drives you guys to be successful at what you do! And helping people such as myself (and providing great tutorials-written/video/photos) is the proverbial icing on the cake! Im very happy to have met both of your acquaintance.
I thoroughly enjoyed the breakdowns you both gave. It clearly enabled me to fully comprehend just exactly what happens during a car wash, be it by hand or via autowash. I think this evening im going to go home and really take a look at my car with a good light source (will a flash light be ok) and try to make an educated assessment of my surface. At the very least I believe I will need to decontaminate the surface for sure, as I live in an area where there is a BP refinery as well as 3 very large steel mills constantly pumping "something" into the air!
Side note:
I used to actually work on-site at one of the local steel mills. Meaning, I'd have to park my car smack in the middle of all that was going on in the Iron Producing Dept.
The car was white, and over a fairly short period of time, I began to notice that the surface began to form spots or speckles of what I thought, appeared to be mini rust spots. And no matter how thoroughly I thought i'd hand wash it, they'd lessen but never completely disappear. *Car Neglect Here* since it was an older car that could never possibly stay clean anyways and from me just not having the time to invest in keeping the surface clean..I just never properly addressed it, as it was (and still is) the true definition of a "work car"!
But now-thanks to you guys, I think I understand exactly what was happening. In the event I used IronX, I surmise that my car would have been a bright purple instead of white!

You guys have helped more that you know!
I think i'll make this my other forum hang out area! I love learning about things like this and you simply cant beat the caliber of character you two seem to possess! Cheers and thank you!