Project Swirl Mark Removal and Paint Restoration
01-15-15, 08:38 AM
#16
Great info and advice so far in this thread!
As a professional detailer specializing in high end paint correction & paint protection, I will weigh in and will also be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
There are several things that you need to consider before selecting a detailing package... while it may be true that the most expensive multi-step correction package will remove the most defects, that does not necessarily mean that is the right choice for you.
Allow me to elaborate.... imagine you are looking at the surface of your paint under a microscope. The swirls and defects appear as voids (valleys) in the surface. The only way to remove these defects is to remove enough paint to eliminate the valleys and produce a nearly flat surface. A surface that is free of micro-scratches will be mostly flat (aside from orange peel). The key thing to note here is that you are removing a fine layer of paint. Clear coat is incredibly thin on most modern vehicles... while clear coat thickness does vary, it is almost always safe to say that the total thickness of your clear coat is thinner than a sheet of computer paper. Think about that for a minute.
^Paint thickness measurement on brand new Audi Q7... this measurement includes primer, base and clear coat. Reading of 80 microns which is about the thickness of a sheet of paper, therefore the clear coat is even thinner!
With that being said, you do not want to polish your paint more than is absolutely needed in order to preserve clear coat thickness. A vehicle that is driven daily and is washed regularly will develop marring and swirls overtime - regardless of how careful you are... it happens, I promise
As already mentioned, Lexus paint is particularly soft and can be a real chore to maintain. If you are up to the challenge of maintaining a nearly flawless surface, a complete correction may be the best option for you... if you are seeking increased clarity and gloss, but aren't after near perfection then a more basic correction would probably make more sense. Too many people get caught up in the idea of having a perfectly swirl free finish, when in reality they never consider the consequences of the heavy correction that may be needed, and that the car will in fact need to be polished many more times throughout its life. In my opinion, Clear coat preservation should be your #1 concern for a DD. (this is coming from a professional who could just as easily try to convince you to spend a ton of money on seeking a perfect finish). Hopefully that makes some sense. Please let me know if you'd like me to elaborate further on the pros and cons of the various levels of correction.
As also mentioned, since Lexus paint (esp. Obsidian) is soft and delicate... it is very easy to scratch, and much more difficult to properly polish. Soft paint is tricky to finish down flawlessly... most consumers won't notice micro-marring or other imperfections that are a key sign of improper polishing, so allow me to shed some light on this.
Consider a vehicle that is heavily swirled as seen below...
This vehicle will need a 2 step correction process to remove the majority of the defects. The first part is the compounding process which utilizes a cutting compound & cutting pad to abrade the surface and remove the majority of the defects. Due to the aggressive abrasives and pad, this process often leaves its own set of fine scratches in the paint. As you can see in the following 50/50 photo, the right side has not been corrected, the left side has been compounded. All of the original defects have been removed, but there is a very fine haze (known as micro marring) that remains. These are the scratches left from the cutting process on this particular vehicle. It is important to note that micro marring can also occur during a polishing process (not just with heavy cutting). On delicate, soft paint, even a fine polish may leave marring behind. This is where experience comes into play... a true professional will have the right tools, products, and technique to finish perfectly on even the most sensitive paint.
^50/50 shot showing defect removal during compounding process and remaining micromarring after compounding.
The following photo shows the exact same area as before after it was refined with a finishing polish. Notice the haze has been eliminated and the surface is now clear and crisp.
^Showing the same 50/50 after polishing the left side. The micro-marring has been removed.
^50/50 comparing the original paint (right) to the corrected paint (left) after 2-step correction process.
^Finished photo after Correction & CQuartz Finest Ceramic Paint Coating
While paint correction & polishing is certainly something you can DIY, it is an art that is only mastered with tons of experience and practice on many, many different vehicles. This is the reason a real professional who specializes in paint correction will be able to produce outstanding results. There are many 'professionals' who will "buff" your car... but just know that there is a huge difference in having Joe Detailer run a buffer over your car and having a true expert correct your paint. You definitely get what you pay for with this line of work, so educate yourself on what exactly will be done to your vehicle, ask plenty of questions, and get it done right! Your clear coat is far too delicate to allow just anyone to work with it... it only takes one bad job to ruin paint (ie needs repair & repaint!).
OP: It sounds like the detailer you have been speaking with is knowledgeable, but don't be afraid to ask questions and voice your concerns if you have any. They should be able to walk you through the best package to fit your needs and your budget as well as explain why it may be the best choice for you. Ask them to measure your paint before pursuing any major correction work... a light polish will likely be fine regardless of potentially thin paint, but always better to check for any areas of concern before anything goes wrong. You can even ask them to do a test spot to show you what kind of results you can expect from a particular process!
Again, please don't hesistate to let me know if you've got any questions... I'm always happy to help
-Zach
As a professional detailer specializing in high end paint correction & paint protection, I will weigh in and will also be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
There are several things that you need to consider before selecting a detailing package... while it may be true that the most expensive multi-step correction package will remove the most defects, that does not necessarily mean that is the right choice for you.
Allow me to elaborate.... imagine you are looking at the surface of your paint under a microscope. The swirls and defects appear as voids (valleys) in the surface. The only way to remove these defects is to remove enough paint to eliminate the valleys and produce a nearly flat surface. A surface that is free of micro-scratches will be mostly flat (aside from orange peel). The key thing to note here is that you are removing a fine layer of paint. Clear coat is incredibly thin on most modern vehicles... while clear coat thickness does vary, it is almost always safe to say that the total thickness of your clear coat is thinner than a sheet of computer paper. Think about that for a minute.
^Paint thickness measurement on brand new Audi Q7... this measurement includes primer, base and clear coat. Reading of 80 microns which is about the thickness of a sheet of paper, therefore the clear coat is even thinner!
With that being said, you do not want to polish your paint more than is absolutely needed in order to preserve clear coat thickness. A vehicle that is driven daily and is washed regularly will develop marring and swirls overtime - regardless of how careful you are... it happens, I promise
As already mentioned, Lexus paint is particularly soft and can be a real chore to maintain. If you are up to the challenge of maintaining a nearly flawless surface, a complete correction may be the best option for you... if you are seeking increased clarity and gloss, but aren't after near perfection then a more basic correction would probably make more sense. Too many people get caught up in the idea of having a perfectly swirl free finish, when in reality they never consider the consequences of the heavy correction that may be needed, and that the car will in fact need to be polished many more times throughout its life. In my opinion, Clear coat preservation should be your #1 concern for a DD. (this is coming from a professional who could just as easily try to convince you to spend a ton of money on seeking a perfect finish). Hopefully that makes some sense. Please let me know if you'd like me to elaborate further on the pros and cons of the various levels of correction.As also mentioned, since Lexus paint (esp. Obsidian) is soft and delicate... it is very easy to scratch, and much more difficult to properly polish. Soft paint is tricky to finish down flawlessly... most consumers won't notice micro-marring or other imperfections that are a key sign of improper polishing, so allow me to shed some light on this.
Consider a vehicle that is heavily swirled as seen below...
This vehicle will need a 2 step correction process to remove the majority of the defects. The first part is the compounding process which utilizes a cutting compound & cutting pad to abrade the surface and remove the majority of the defects. Due to the aggressive abrasives and pad, this process often leaves its own set of fine scratches in the paint. As you can see in the following 50/50 photo, the right side has not been corrected, the left side has been compounded. All of the original defects have been removed, but there is a very fine haze (known as micro marring) that remains. These are the scratches left from the cutting process on this particular vehicle. It is important to note that micro marring can also occur during a polishing process (not just with heavy cutting). On delicate, soft paint, even a fine polish may leave marring behind. This is where experience comes into play... a true professional will have the right tools, products, and technique to finish perfectly on even the most sensitive paint.
^50/50 shot showing defect removal during compounding process and remaining micromarring after compounding.
The following photo shows the exact same area as before after it was refined with a finishing polish. Notice the haze has been eliminated and the surface is now clear and crisp.
^Showing the same 50/50 after polishing the left side. The micro-marring has been removed.
^50/50 comparing the original paint (right) to the corrected paint (left) after 2-step correction process.
^Finished photo after Correction & CQuartz Finest Ceramic Paint Coating
While paint correction & polishing is certainly something you can DIY, it is an art that is only mastered with tons of experience and practice on many, many different vehicles. This is the reason a real professional who specializes in paint correction will be able to produce outstanding results. There are many 'professionals' who will "buff" your car... but just know that there is a huge difference in having Joe Detailer run a buffer over your car and having a true expert correct your paint. You definitely get what you pay for with this line of work, so educate yourself on what exactly will be done to your vehicle, ask plenty of questions, and get it done right! Your clear coat is far too delicate to allow just anyone to work with it... it only takes one bad job to ruin paint (ie needs repair & repaint!).
OP: It sounds like the detailer you have been speaking with is knowledgeable, but don't be afraid to ask questions and voice your concerns if you have any. They should be able to walk you through the best package to fit your needs and your budget as well as explain why it may be the best choice for you. Ask them to measure your paint before pursuing any major correction work... a light polish will likely be fine regardless of potentially thin paint, but always better to check for any areas of concern before anything goes wrong. You can even ask them to do a test spot to show you what kind of results you can expect from a particular process!
Again, please don't hesistate to let me know if you've got any questions... I'm always happy to help
-Zach
Last edited by zmcgovern4; 01-15-15 at 10:14 AM.
01-15-15, 09:10 AM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
Moreno than anybody else on the site I've spoken to, Zach knows his stuff
01-15-15, 10:06 AM
#18
IMO, a good question you should ask (whoever going to fix it for you) is "have you worked on Lexus OB?" This paint is so soft, you may not like the outcome when it's in a wrong hand regardless how well known, expensive they are. Experience definitely counts here. Good luck.
01-15-15, 10:43 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Is that you bn?
01-15-15, 11:21 AM
#20
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
thanks a lot for that great breakdown Zach, I do appreciate and will ask the guy some of the questions that you proposed I asked l. Hopefully the process will go over smoothly.
Just sucks the thread was moved, now no one is going to see it.
Just sucks the thread was moved, now no one is going to see it.
01-15-15, 11:23 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
People will see it in here, the Detailing forum gets traffic.
01-15-15, 11:26 AM
#23
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
01-15-15, 11:30 AM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
I would ask how long he's been detailing. What sort of tools does he use? Does he remove swirls with an orbital or rotary polisher? Does he use wool or foam pads for polishing?
01-15-15, 12:19 PM
#25
I'd simply express you concerns regarding correction...
Ask him if he can inspect your vehicle in person to measure the thickness of your paint and also possibly perform a test spot to help you determine what level of service may be your best option.
He should be using dual action/random orbital polishers for the majority (or all) of this type of work and should not have a set answer on exactly what products he will use to correct the paint (unless just doing the all in one polish + wax) as every vehicle is different and requires a series of test spots to determine the best product + pad + technique needed to produce the agreed upon results.
-Zach
Ask him if he can inspect your vehicle in person to measure the thickness of your paint and also possibly perform a test spot to help you determine what level of service may be your best option.
He should be using dual action/random orbital polishers for the majority (or all) of this type of work and should not have a set answer on exactly what products he will use to correct the paint (unless just doing the all in one polish + wax) as every vehicle is different and requires a series of test spots to determine the best product + pad + technique needed to produce the agreed upon results.
-Zach
01-16-15, 12:08 AM
#26
Seriously though, Zach is a huge asset to this forum. It's not that common for a knowledgeable detailing pro to be a regular participant at a car site (detailing site sure, but not car sites). I hang out in the Acura MDX forum and over there they still think Zaino is the end all, be all (god help them
)
01-16-15, 06:13 AM
#27
A comment RE: Meguiar's M26. This is a beauty wax in my estimation. It is really good on dark colors and can hide minor swirling very well. Unfortunately, this hiding ability only lats for a couple washes. Don't get me wrong, I love this product for it's looks and use it on my garage queen. M26 does an excellent job of hiding swirls and M26 offers one of the highest DOI (distinction of image) of any wax or sealant.
If the detailer has the option of applying a sealant you will get much longer durability and stronger protection. The hitch is that sealants, in general, don't hide swirling very well so the paint needs to be highly corrected in the polishing step before applying a sealant or a coating.
OK, all that said, if you want your black Lexus to look nice (not perfect, but nice) and have maybe 80-85% correction, you could opt for his all-in-one approach, This offers minor correction and a wax that will hide many of the swirls. You can maintain this appearance by proper washing and re-applying M26 every month for quite some time. If you are striving for that last 15-20% of appearance you will need to opt for the more expensive multi-stage polishing and then apply a sealant or a coating.
You will also need to learn about proper washing and drying of the vehicle. Two bucket method, proper drying technique, avoiding tunnel washes and so on. How long your black paint remains swirl free depends on it.
There is nothing inherently wrong with using a product that hides swirls and as pointed out, your clear coat is very, very thin. You cannot remove much of it before it will cause early CC failure.
I am **** about how my personal vehicles look. I own a 1991 MR2 in pristine condition and I rarely polish out swirls. Well, I don't put many in but I prefer to use products like M26 which hides light swirls as the paint is getting thin. I don't mind performing waxing steps more frequently to hide minimal swirls. M26 looks really good on it.
The key here is to discuss your expectations with the detailer before he begins work and ask him to show you a test spot as mentioned earlier. You might also want to pick up a product like Meguiar's Ultimate Quik Wax (D156 Synthetic XPress Spray Wax) to apply after every wash to extend the life of the M26.
If the detailer has the option of applying a sealant you will get much longer durability and stronger protection. The hitch is that sealants, in general, don't hide swirling very well so the paint needs to be highly corrected in the polishing step before applying a sealant or a coating.
OK, all that said, if you want your black Lexus to look nice (not perfect, but nice) and have maybe 80-85% correction, you could opt for his all-in-one approach, This offers minor correction and a wax that will hide many of the swirls. You can maintain this appearance by proper washing and re-applying M26 every month for quite some time. If you are striving for that last 15-20% of appearance you will need to opt for the more expensive multi-stage polishing and then apply a sealant or a coating.
You will also need to learn about proper washing and drying of the vehicle. Two bucket method, proper drying technique, avoiding tunnel washes and so on. How long your black paint remains swirl free depends on it.
There is nothing inherently wrong with using a product that hides swirls and as pointed out, your clear coat is very, very thin. You cannot remove much of it before it will cause early CC failure.
I am **** about how my personal vehicles look. I own a 1991 MR2 in pristine condition and I rarely polish out swirls. Well, I don't put many in but I prefer to use products like M26 which hides light swirls as the paint is getting thin. I don't mind performing waxing steps more frequently to hide minimal swirls. M26 looks really good on it.
The key here is to discuss your expectations with the detailer before he begins work and ask him to show you a test spot as mentioned earlier. You might also want to pick up a product like Meguiar's Ultimate Quik Wax (D156 Synthetic XPress Spray Wax) to apply after every wash to extend the life of the M26.
01-17-15, 11:58 AM
#28
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
unfortunately i have canceled the detail today because when i called the guy yesterday to ask him more questions he was not too courteous. I am going to get it in this ASAP and will update you guys.
01-17-15, 05:19 PM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
You have to find somebody who is passionate about detailing if you want good work. They should be happy to discuss their process with you.
The flip side is...you have to pay for that.
The flip side is...you have to pay for that.